What can the other secondaries do better than /Shield?
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Originally Posted by Castle
Gosh, I dunno, maybe that's why I said it was a bigger project than I could look into at the moment? I'm well aware there are a vast number of variables that go into performance, and that this particular case is rather "edge case" in the first place. Do I think there is a real problem with Dark Melee? No, not really. There *could* be, there is at least some "evidence" of it, but without deconstructing what's going on, I don't know. That evidence is NOT the fact that under certain circumstances, it can generate 300 dps, it *is* the fact that it can generate roughly the same DPS as Fire Melee, which is meant to have higher DPS than other sets since it has less soft-control.
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gg picking out the tiniest sliver of a post and responding to it but leaving everything else left to the void.
if powers and sets are balanced using SOs, then shield needs a buff please
/gignore @username is the best feature of this game. It's also probably the least used feature.
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Originally Posted by Nights_Dawn
Hazy is right
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Is this your first trip to an internet forum before?
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Originally Posted by Marsquake2
gg picking out the tiniest sliver of a post and responding to it but leaving everything else left to the void.
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Stick to the 'other' kind of talk...it took less time to figure out than 'this' kind of talk (type?).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
can I haz buffz 2? give buffz 4 all every1 b happy. den other stuff buffz make every1 sad. not supr anymore. devz hates us.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
This thread should be renamed "So it turns out everything is unbalanced."
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BBBBut there are all these intricate balancing mechanisms that make certain that's not so. We have been assured of this.
Seriously, it does make you wonder just what the value of these mechanisms are when they can't even be properly applied by the people who came up with them.
Don't see why Castle's post in here are causing so much anguish. He didn't say he was going to nerf anything. In fact, he barely said anything at all. People are reading too much into these comments. But I guess that is to be expected.
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If it makes you feel better, the poster you were responding to had it wrong. Castle said he would maybe look at Fiery Aura when he had the chance, not Fiery Melee. Which makes sense... Aura needs tweaking, Melee is just dandy.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
And that's the problem when you try to overbalance or shoot for perfect balance, in a game with so many different variables and situations. FM and DM are two very different powersets, but are very competitive with eachother anyway, yet when you look at one situation, it actually opens up the idea that one needs a buff, which is ridiculous if you've played either set at all.
Stick to buffing or nerfing the new powersets, early on, that seem to be way imbalanced, and buff older powersets that are clearly underperforming, and you will keep everyone happy. Or keep dropping massive nerfs on things that have been out for years and piss off a dwindling customer base, which imo, would seem to be a very bad idea. |
I would also say you need to be a tad more realistic with your expectations, too. I would like for changes to get routed in more quickly, but an MMO is dynamic. Nerfs and buffs are going to come and go, no matter how long something has been in a game... especially when much of the dev team is tied up with developing a new endgame system and expansion. Even if there wasn't all that going on, changes are still going to happen.
*added*
Agreed, Munki. People need to hear the worst, though.
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10 pages ago we were discussing possible fixes for FA. Dev Digest brings lots of unwanted attention, unfortunately :/
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Originally Posted by MunkiLord
Don't see why Castle's post in here are causing so much anguish. He didn't say he was going to nerf anything. In fact, he barely said anything at all. People are reading too much into these comments. But I guess that is to be expected.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
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^Professional Katana/regen build thread
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Now where is that sig picture of Castle saying, "Balance is as balance does, punk!" |
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Simple question for you all. Why in the hell do yall have discussions like this? All it does is give them a reason to look at powerset that they otherwise would not be looking at. Its almost like yall are nerf herding but not realizing it. If anything the conversations need to be like, as a level 50 FM/FA scrapper I been getting owned by lvl 1 hellions, or something along those lines. We all know it takes forever and a day to get them to buff a set, at least doing it from the this powerset iz teh sux just cuz approach, whatever its being overshadowed by is less likely to get looked at, where as Shield does everything better posts only gets shields knocked down a few pegs when its really not that great without IOs to begin with. Some of you might say well the devs datamining would let them know if it needs a buff or a nerf, but I have absolutely no faith and in their datamining because of some previous nerfs that made absolutely no sense what so ever. Either way it goes many of you need to watch what you post because you end up getting other people's characters gutted for no good reason in the long run.
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[Edit] I found it!
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For going rogue I plan to create a praetorian version of castle. I will call him Enpassant. I just need to know what primary and secondary Castle uses. His back story will be how he creates a machine that buffs every powerset known to man, similar to the recluese 4 towers thing and nerfs all existing AV/Heroes into the ground so even lvl 1 hellions can beat lvl 54 recluese.
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Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
Now where is that sig picture of Castle saying, "Balance is as balance does, punk!"
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Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
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I can't seem to wrap my head around Castle's thought process.
Fire does more DPS than Dark with low levels of recharge, it does similar DPS with high levels of recharge.
It does a lot more AoE damage than Dark
These are just the tip of the iceburge type problems.
They all stem from two huge issues, too much influence floating around in the game, and too many +defense bonuses.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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No doubt. I've been reading the thread(from post 1), and I agree dev digest probably brought extra people(some unwanted). But my comment was directed at people on both sides of the "debate."|
Originally Posted by Elegost
10 pages ago we were discussing possible fixes for FA. Dev Digest brings lots of unwanted attention, unfortunately :/
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I just don't think Castle's comments in this thread are that big of a deal.
edit: But of course I could be wrong. But I just don't see a "nerf" or "adjustment" to Dark Melee in the works. It takes some good bonuses to get that top attack chain and not suck endurance, and I'm confident that if Castle does look at it the set will be fine. But like I said, I could be wrong.
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Look Castle, I've been trying really hard to be supportive of you since taking a break after the last time I got sick of some of your shortsighted moves. But if you want that kind of support then you can't post things that are representative of someone with no understanding of the situation and expect it to just go over smoothly. You are supposed to be the guy that knows. If you don't know it is far better to PM someone who does before proceeding.|
Originally Posted by Castle
Gosh, I dunno, maybe that's why I said it was a bigger project than I could look into at the moment? I'm well aware there are a vast number of variables that go into performance, and that this particular case is rather "edge case" in the first place. Do I think there is a real problem with Dark Melee? No, not really. There *could* be, there is at least some "evidence" of it, but without deconstructing what's going on, I don't know. That evidence is NOT the fact that under certain circumstances, it can generate 300 dps, it *is* the fact that it can generate roughly the same DPS as Fire Melee, which is meant to have higher DPS than other sets since it has less soft-control.
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What you posted looked like a knee jerk reaction to me and I really don't think I'm alone. But lets continue being nice and more on topic shall we? Just how much st dps is a fully saturated AAO+fully saturated (just shy of perma) soul drain+optimal attack chain+procs DM/shields supposed to produce then?
AAO+souldrain adds +231% damage buff. I'm reasonably confident that in the event that you make that buff as close to permanent as possible it is going to have drastic results on your performance. Meaning that the low side of DM with no damage buffs is going to be pretty mediocre (for damage) and the high side is going to be amazing. I mean that is basically the "fulcrum shifting" combo.
Here's a really important consideration though. If you think about only one thing from this post and pick it to harp on then let it be this:
Is the fact that they have to surround themselves with high hp fodder so that it actually lasts through the souldraining of any sort of relevance? Cause you know it usually takes them several minutes of prepping to make that sort of run whereas fire/shield can pretty much just grab the first fodder in sight and pull it over and most other toons just jump right in and go to town on it. Would this discussion be happening if those DM's were including prep time? Should they be?
Before you just jump to the obvious "no" what if I stack the 25 or so trip mines that my corr is technically capable of doing and then pull and EB into it and a couple acid mortars and one shot it. Is my dps infinite? If you ignore prep time on the DM then the only answer is that my dps is ~infinite on that corruptor in that scenario. The same can take off over half an AV's hp at which point I start scourging and do far more damage than any corruptor should be capable of because I didn't have to spend any time chewing through the non-scourge period.
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You did notice the post where he notes the correct values for SC and how they are lower than the current Live versions, jes?|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
No doubt. I've been reading the thread(from post 1), and I agree dev digest probably brought extra people(some unwanted). But my comment was directed at people on both sides of the "debate."
I just don't think Castle's comments in this thread are that big of a deal. |
EDIT: typo, changed we to he.
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I don't think you're alone in that either. But I didn't take his comments that way. To me, what you and a couple others are doing are knee jerk reactions.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
What you posted looked like a knee jerk reaction to me and I really don't think I'm alone.
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People should relax.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
You did notice the post where he notes the correct values for SC and how they are lower than the current Live versions, jes?
EDIT: typo, changed we to he. |
Yes, but I was referring specifically to the Dark Melee comments. I should have been more clear.
I guess I should also add that if SC is doing significantly more damage than desired by the powers people and they change it, I don't think that is a huge deal. Kinda like how the BoTZ nerf wasn't a big deal. Just in case anyone is wondering, yes something like that would hit me too, I have a very expensive fire/shield.
Level 14 MA/FA scrapper LFT!!!
useless post on a not so useless thread...
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It's true that he didn't say he was going to nerf Shields. However, what he implied is that a nerf is clearly in order, but it's too big a job to do just now:|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
Don't see why Castle's post in here are causing so much anguish. He didn't say he was going to nerf anything. In fact, he barely said anything at all. People are reading too much into these comments. But I guess that is to be expected.
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Originally Posted by Castle
FWIW, nothing is going to be done about this for now. It's too big and widespread of an issue for me to unilaterally decide on how to approach it. I'll give folks a heads up on what is decided as soon as I know.
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Originally Posted by Castle
So, instead of:
Brutes 3' scale 1.8, 20' scale 1.275 Tankers 3' scale 2.04, 20' 1.445 Scrappers 3' scale 2.7, 20' scale 1.9125 We get: Brute 20' scale 2.4 Tanker 20' scale 2.712 Scrapper 20' scale 3.6 That REALLY sucks. |
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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Originally Posted by Hazygreys
if powers and sets are balanced using SOs, then shield needs a buff please
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Bless you Hazygreys.
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So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
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Is pretty?
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Hmmm.... Two words:
Lightning Rod |
Hm. I need a pithy term that means "fix a mistake that made something nearly twice as powerful as explicitly intended."
Rod?
Quench?
Drogue?
@SPTrashcan
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That would only work if Castle only nerfs every powerset. He doesn't.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
For going rogue I plan to create a praetorian version of castle. I will call him Enpassant. I just need to know what primary and secondary Castle uses. His back story will be how he creates a machine that buffs every powerset known to man, similar to the recluese 4 towers thing and nerfs all existing AV/Heroes into the ground so even lvl 1 hellions can beat lvl 54 recluese.
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How many is "not many", and what do we get for the guarantee if you are wrong? |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
LOL, how many people take grant cover to buff teamates? That would be one nerf not many peope would complain about, I can guarantee you that (outside of those who take it for the DDR...).
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I think I know what's going on in this thread...
All the good will aimed at David Nakayama has created an imbalance in the force. It's siphoned away the goodwill aimed at other Devs!
Simple question for you all. Why in the hell do yall have discussions like this? All it does is give them a reason to look at powerset that they otherwise would not be looking at. Its almost like yall are nerf herding but not realizing it. If anything the conversations need to be like, as a level 50 FM/FA scrapper I been getting owned by lvl 1 hellions, or something along those lines. We all know it takes forever and a day to get them to buff a set, at least doing it from the this powerset iz teh sux just cuz approach, whatever its being overshadowed by is less likely to get looked at, where as Shield does everything better posts only gets shields knocked down a few pegs when its really not that great without IOs to begin with. Some of you might say well the devs datamining would let them know if it needs a buff or a nerf, but I have absolutely no faith and in their datamining because of some previous nerfs that made absolutely no sense what so ever. Either way it goes many of you need to watch what you post because you end up getting other people's characters gutted for no good reason in the long run.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!