Discussion: Live Patch Notes - 4/7/10
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-04-07 09:43 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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For anyone not getting why this was a stupid, rushed, improperly tested (if at all) needs to read this.|
Originally Posted by Tangler
Well, I've read the patch notes, spent a few hours experimenting with the new changes, been keeping up with the forums, and have now slept on it.
To say that I am still less than impressed with this patch is a hilarious understatement. I feel others have already stated the reasons against this patch far more eloquently than I ever could, but I'll add my voice against this "fix":
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Luckily "allies" are visible when you read the text description of an arc, so if this patch intends to stay, then folks will know what to avoid.
The exploit NEEDED to be fixed. But not with a patch that lowers xp just because you have mobs of fighting PPD and Archanos.
Hell, with the rules with how this fix (LMAO at calling it that) works, if such a similar fix were ported into tfs, MOST of the major tfs in the game would have missions giving zero xp.
For those saying "GJ devs" read that last line again and ponder on it.
Oh and in case you didn't figure it out, I agree with the points made by the poster I quoted above. That's all I'm saying on this issue.
EDIT: Also for those saying they are in GR mode and didn't have time to test this properly, or are justified because of GR for such a quick fix: BULL*(&T!
What if there is another patch next week that is so buggy that it erases characters, or inf on toons, or such other weird things, cause it didn't get tested that well? Are the apologist going to go on and say "well they are busy with GR!!!!" (yes I know not everyone made that argument, but the few that did need to realize how dumb that sounds). This isn't the first time that a fix made authors have to redo all their work was pushed live.
Since THERE IS NO AE without the authors, top priority MUST be given to making sure exploit fixes (and especially ones as bad as the one pushed to LIVE) don't . . . wait for it . . . DRIVE AWAY YOUR AUTHORS, the ones basically who make AE useful. Without them all you have is big zone-inappropriate eyesore, empty buildings.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Originally Posted by Venture
I very much doubt that you have.
Consider: a lawman in a remote community is faced with a band of killers. All the supposed upstanding members of the community turn their backs on him. Even his deputy won't help. Undeterred, the lawman keeps to his duty and faces the killers alone. Quick, does this story take place in Hadleyville, New Mexico or the moons of Jupiter? Ever notice how Shakespeare's plays are usually transplanted to other settings and times? Orson Welles, working with WPA actors (i.e. people who weren't really actors and had no experience) put on a production of Macbeth set in Hati, with voodoo and mambos. It was hailed as a triumph. If you've got an actual story (doesn't have to rival Doestoyevsky, just something with an actual theme), as opposed to a mere narrative of events, then you can set that story anywhere with any characters. If the whole thing is going to fall down if you can't use a particular AV, there was nothing there to begin with. |
if someone wants to fight alongside various of LR's inner circle, or against them, you sorta have to use those specific AVs. all of you people who say "you have no story if you HAVE to have a particular npc" are just wrong. if i want to play with/against signature characters, then those specific toons have to be used.
Political correctness is a stench in the nose of God. Yes, your God(s) also.
It's amazing that not one red name has posted here to justify the coding.
Today I realized that this patch kills both of my arcs.
One has two fighting (not buffing) allies so it can be solo'd by anyone. The other (in the sig) has a number of captives to be released.
As has been stated above - and in game to me - the hardcore farmers don't need buff bots. So this patch does more harm to people who would run my arcs than farmers.
Let me remind you of a 'normal' TF which would be hit by this patch. The ITF.
Release captives: Mission one
Destroy Objects: Mission two and three
Ally: Mission three and four
So, when is this being applied to dev-coded content?*
Let me offer some constructive ideas:
1) If you want to nerf allies, nerf ALLIES over 10. Not captives or items to be destroyed. ALLIES who help and fight/buff.
The mission computer in the ITF doesn't help the party one whit; why would you penalize people for it being there?
2) Actually remove arcs which only have one mob type in their arc.
I have no idea how hard this would be but they are still out there; remove them and free space for decent arcs
3) Remove arcs which are reported as farms
4) Post something in this thread
It is your game and your servers but we do pay you and you have clearly hurt more genuine people here than farms. That is a mistake which you should admit or at the least justify the rationale.
This should be rolled back until you can implement it in a way which does not harm the majority of non-farm arcs.
SAVE CoX info:
Titan Network efforts
Saving CoX events/FB info
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It's pretty destructive to pretty much all of mine; most of them feature multiple captive releases, or stand-alone captive releases whose purpose is to insert flavor text. My second Dr. Aeon contest entry, The Great American Skull Fry, is particularly badly struck. Here, one ally was added specifically for the purpose of being mostly useless in content, to fit the theme of "hero loses his powers". Since that's designed to be played by level 10s, I think it's fair to say that XP is a fairly important consideration. |
Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
Today I realized that this patch kills both of my arcs.
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Oddly, the one unaffected arc is .... the proof-of-concept arc I made to demonstrate why the custom critter nerf achieved nothing worth doing. That one includes no captives or allies in the main mission.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Well thats great news Dev's I already have one Arc no one plays now I will have two. |
Originally Posted by Steele_Magnolia
I knew I could count on you to test this. I was reading this thread and waiting for you to respond.
For storytelling, non-farm, arcs this change sucks. I tried to find another word that sums up how I feel but that's the only one that encompasses my opinion. I play a fair amount of AE. I enjoy having sidekicks or rescuing a hostage who then fights back. Some penalty I could see, but jumping jehosophat that's extreme. And it's going to have an appreciable impact on how MA arcs are chosen and played, and far too often dropped and neg rated for simply having an ally. I have one arc affected. In mission four of The All-Seeing Eye you rescue a Malta Gunslinger who in turn helps fight Nemesis. I don't think he provides so much assistance as to be worth cutting the xp rewards in (roughly) half. He's not THAT good. I'm not changing it because his motivations for helping you contribute to the overall storyline. I hate seeing story arcs like Teen Phalanx and Portal Bandits suffer for the actions of farmers. |
/em Handclap... and people want to know why I don't spend time actually writing. Bad move but as always working as intended. Sigh.
AV
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by Star Ranger 4 WIN LOSE OR DRAW, WE WILL FIGHT. WE ARE HEROES This is what we DO! |
Decide that this will be another day in which you Walk The Talk.
MA #14724 Operation: Discredit @American Valor
Sentinel Of Liberty SG
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Quoted because I've not only been saying the same thing for years, but so have several others. If you (as in general) can't see this for what it truly is, you my dear friend are wearing blinders.|
Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous
ED, GDN, and AoE caps were all instituted to discourage and slow farming, and this was well before loot was introduced. The merit system was introduced to further slow the rate at which rare items could be obtained (with rewards based solely on time, not risk, which is in complete violation of their #1 mantra of "risk vs reward"). Oh sure, they'll let us farm, but only on their terms and at their pace. Which kinda defeats the point of farming.
Considering that Positron vowed to delete characters that were shown to have reached level 50 too quickly I think shows how they feel about powerleveling. It's also one of the main reasons they implemented the super-sidekicking system; to eliminate the use of bridges and manipulated SK levels for faster XP gain. Again, PLing is ok as long as it's done on their terms, meaning slogging thru tired old content. And Castle has stated numerous times the market is out of control and inflation has run rampant, with prices for items being many times higher than they ever imagined. Yet despite admitting to this they still do everything they can to limit supply of these rare items, further fueling demand, and skyrocketing prices even higher. So they're really ok with farming, powerleveling, and a broken market so long as they have complete control over all of it. Which means you're not really doing any of the things you think you are. And when you are actually ARE farming, powerleveling, and getting what you want without dealing with the market, giant red flags get thrown up leading to a swift and heavy-handed nerf with the excuse "well we never intended this to used in this way even though we designed it this way and were completely fine with it until you started doing stuff we didn't like with it". Are you really so naive to think it DOESN'T work like this? |
The farm-haters are constantly using "fixes" such as these to spout off how the devs hate farmers blah blah blah. They easily ignore the fact that the "farmers" were doing exactly what the devs allowed them to do. Until they changed their mind of course.
I've sat quietly for months, due to the disaster that was the launch of the MA system. A lot of my friends had toons wrongfully deleted and a very big chunk of them left. I left for a couple of months myself. After seeing some of the things coming to the game, such as power customization, Going Rogue, Ultra Mode etc, I came back with a somewhat different attitude. I decided to sit back and let things unfold however they unfold to see if the devs did in fact have us in mind.
What an idiot I was. Power Customization and all the other new toys were just a shiny meant to take our attention away from the same old problems. Once again the devs "fix" issues that have been rampant for months if not years in some cases. The excuse "We never expected the playerbase to utilize <insert your favorite feature> like this! We're sorry!" is getting old now and no longer holds any water. They're well aware that a large portion of the player base will push any and all limits. Faking ignorance is unbecoming. I see that nothing has changed. Am I going to rage-quit over it? No. But I'm certainly not going to hold back anymore. I pay to play and I will voice my dissatisfaction with as long as I'm paying.
Don't even bother using time as an excuse. With all the money they've been pulling in with all of these shiny things, they certainly have enough to hire someone to work specifically on dev "mistakes". Then maybe we wouldn't have to wait for 16 months for something "not working as intended" to get fixed. So ridiculous. I can't believe there is a single person who finds this acceptable in any way.
War Witch, even if you ignore the rest of this post entirely, take this little tiny piece of advice....Stop letting bugs, exploits or other items "not working as intended" sit around for months at a time. This is horrible business practice and you end up with very unpleasant customers.
We'll see....
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This was one of the things I suggested after the first nerf. Players would be forced to make a decision; level or hoard. With the caps in place; PLing in AE would be nonexistent and they could irrelevant the XP nerf(s) and bring back mobs they got rid of. This would have to go hand in hand with changing the drop rates (which in turn could alleviate the need for a cap).|
Originally Posted by JJDrakken
Remove the XP, only make it Drop Salvage, Cash & Tickets. Many 50s would then actually go play story arcs, this a good thing. Or they would farm, either way 50s are doing something, instead of collecting dust or random SF/TF.
Im telling you this would fix quite a bit. JJ |
Then the remaining issue would be how to limit loot farming from over-influencing the market; which I also made a suggestion on more recently.
[I wouldn't even have it drop Salvage]
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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What about those of us who use this as an alternate path to leveling because we're bored to tears of the crappy heroside content? My SG does this, we create custom arcs and stories and run them as a group. That group spans across a variety of levels.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
This was one of the things I suggested after the first nerf. Players would be forced to make a decision; level or hoard. With the caps in place; PLing in AE would be nonexistent and they could irrelevant the XP nerf(s) and bring back mobs they got rid of. This would have to go hand in hand with changing the drop rates (which in turn could alleviate the need for a cap).
Then the remaining issue would be how to limit loot farming from over-influencing the market; which I also made a suggestion on more recently. [I wouldn't even have it drop Salvage] |
The last thing I want to do is punish a SG member who is new and on a lower toon for coming to a SG story event by not letting them gain XP. Thats not a fair choice, run with my SG and RP the story or go hit up a pug to level.
We put a lot of time into writing interesting stories for the group to run, and honestly I don't care about changes. I just want to know what the boundaries are when those changes happen. I'm fine playing within the confines of the devs sandbox, but they gotta tell me what those boundaries are.
Its a bit unfair to those of us using AE as Posi intended, as an alternative path to leveling while weaving our own stories, to make these changes without giving us any details beyond vague statements.
But sorry, no, I want to keep XP and rewards equal to the rest of the game. I don't want to punish my SG members for choosing to do a story with us rather then pug through the same old paper missions or painful hero side contacts.
Pay attention to Flameshot.
Do something quickly before a playerbase meltdown occurs.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
Now that I know more than allies are affected I realize my arc is getting the xp hammer because it's more than a radio-type "defeat the boss".
M1: 3 battles, glowy
M2: 3 battles, defeat boss
M3: 3 battles, defeat the boss
M4: defeat 3 bosses, hostage/ally
M5: 10 battles, destructible object, defeat the boss]
Removing all the -xp items is not an option. I wouldn't have a story left.
Epic Fail.
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517513781597443/
Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
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Did you see this in the MA forum?|
Originally Posted by Steele_Magnolia
Now that I know more than allies are affected I realize my arc is getting the xp hammer because it's more than a radio-type "defeat the boss".
M1: 3 battles, glowy M2: 3 battles, defeat boss M3: 3 battles, defeat the boss M4: defeat 3 bosses, hostage/ally M5: 10 battles, destructible object, defeat the boss] Removing all the -xp items is not an option. I wouldn't have a story left. Epic Fail. |
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Originally Posted by Katie V
The results of my testing of the ally XP nerf:
What counts as an "ally"? All "Ally" mission objectives, all "Release Captive" objectives, all "Defend an object" objectives, and all "Escort" mission objectives. What does not count? Allied patrols and fights where one side is an ally, "Fight a Boss" objectives where the boss is an ally, as well as the obvious ones: "destroy an object", "fight a boss", etc. Does it matter if the ally objective is mandatory or not? No. Does it matter if the ally is a custom mob or not? No. Does the difficulty of the ally matter? No. Do the powers of the ally matter? No. How much is XP reduced? Each additional ally removes 10% of the XP for a defeat, so the formula is: RewardXP = BaseXP * (0.9 ^ NumAllies). For example, having five allies would reduce the XP for defeating an opponent by 41%. Are ticket drops reduced? I haven't tested this, but I assume so. I expect the formula used gives the same results as the XP reduction formula. |
SAVE CoX info:
Titan Network efforts
Saving CoX events/FB info
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Originally Posted by Hazygreys
Once again it's the devs jumping the gun to fix some farming, meanwhile it effects everyone that had missions in AE with allies. GG devs, maybe one day you can learn to fix one thing without breaking three other things.
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the funny thing is the farmers have already moved on. The devs "fix" the ally problem, but now battles and rescues are broken as well
/gignore @username is the best feature of this game. It's also probably the least used feature.
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Originally Posted by Nights_Dawn
Hazy is right
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Me. To experience a good story.|
Originally Posted by Ezoran
probably.
why play an arc that is not going to give badges, decent xp, or good drops? who here HONESTLY thinks otherwise? |
I like to levbel, sure, but it's not absolutely neseccary for me to get XP in a MArc.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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>.>|
Originally Posted by flameshot
and you end up with very unpleasant customers.
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<.<
Count me in the camp of people who love all the drama after a nerf, who hate exploits, who are giddy that they rolled this change out, who also play AE missions mainly for the story and not the rewards, and who are generally happy with the changes and progress that the developers make.
Will this be the final action taken to resolve the exploits? Probably not, they'll likely go back and change what an "ally" is to not include hostages and such. But it's pretty brain-dead to assert, like I see a lot of people doing here, that it's better to leave an open exploit than to patch it. Duh.
And contrary to all the ZOMG, DOOOOOM!-criers here, this is but a blip on the radar of the vast majority of players, if even that. Of all the things that you imagine will destroy the game (or even the AE, for that matter), this is really low on the totem pole of reality. In a nutshell, if you're going to swear off AE because it's not as farmable as it was, good riddance. I don't want you playing my arcs anyway, because I assure you that you wouldn't like them (I have to read!!?), and you'd probably just one-star them.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Aren't you the guy who posted the 2009 third quarter numbers and found no decline in player numbers worth worrying about ?
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Originally Posted by TonyV
And contrary to all the ZOMG, DOOOOOM!-criers here, this is but a blip on the radar of the vast majority of players, if even that. Of all the things that you imagine will destroy the game (or even the AE, for that matter), this is really low on the totem pole of reality. In a nutshell, if you're going to swear off AE because it's not as farmable as it was, good riddance. I don't want you playing my arcs anyway, because I assure you that you wouldn't like them (I have to read!!?), and you'd probably just one-star them.
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Yep, keep it for the story tellers. Just get rid of all the rewards in it.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Once again, the Storytellers/enjoyers and the reward-seekers are two mutually exclusive groups of people right?
I have said this before and I will say it again:
SOME PEOPLE ENJOY BOTH
And even *gasp* AT THE SAME TIME
And just because some people didn't get it the first or the tenth time I and others have said it:
SOME PEOPLE ENJOY BOTH
Now do I need to fetch a heavy blunt object and hammer it out in morse code on people's skulls? Or are the people who suddenly become AE experts every time a redname posts about it finally going to get that SOME PEOPLE ENJOY BOTH?
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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What about us guys that just like good playability (story be darned (but gimmie my shinies))? |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Once again, the Storytellers/enjoyers and the reward-seekers are two mutually exclusive groups of people right?
I have said this before and I will say it again: SOME PEOPLE ENJOY BOTH And even *gasp* AT THE SAME TIME And just because some people didn't get it the first or the tenth time I and others have said it: SOME PEOPLE ENJOY BOTH Now do I need to fetch a heavy blunt object and hammer it out in morse code on people's skulls? Or are the people who suddenly become AE experts every time a redname posts about it finally going to get that SOME PEOPLE ENJOY BOTH? |
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Seriously, a redname might help cool people out.|
Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
It's amazing that not one red name has posted here to justify the coding. .... This should be rolled back until you can implement it in a way which does not harm the majority of non-farm arcs.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
SOME PEOPLE ENJOY BOTH
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Seriously, though. I would love to have XP and rewards and a great story. It definitely helps. I want both.
I am willing to make a compromise, though.
"...his madness keeps him sane.": My Profile on VirtueVerse
Can You WIN the Internet? MA Arc #85544
Inhuman Resources - At Work with IE #298132
Task Force Mutternacht #349522 <-- 1st AE Challenge
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I'm happy about bugs and exploits getting changed, but not when it leaks over and affects legitimate missions in a big way. This one is pretty severe on that. I don't have a single arc this won't affect. And none of those have buffbots.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
Count me in the camp of people who love all the drama after a nerf, who hate exploits, who are giddy that they rolled this change out, who also play AE missions mainly for the story and not the rewards, and who are generally happy with the changes and progress that the developers make.
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I checked, and almost every good arc out there has some condition that will be met by this change and cause a reduction in experience. Almost every Dev Choice, Guest Author, Hall of Fame, or 5-star arc has a couple allies, rescues, or hostages of some sort.
The looming restriction placed on editors now because of this change prevents us from using about half of the objectives. Pretty much the only safe thing we can do now is make nothing but missions where you only fight badguys.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I'm loving all this vitriol towards this patch coming from the storytelling community. We have some really bright and insightful individuals who know where the blame should be placed when it comes to this patch.
(hint for the devs: They aren't blaming the farmers and exploiters for the implementation of this patch.)
You were warned by your own community the reward system would be exploited. You chose not to listen.
Fix the reward system for AE so that it rewards the creators for creating legitimate stories. This system of rewarding individuals MORE for playing player created content rather than creating content is STUPID. There are smarter ways for rewarding people for playing player created content.
You are not punishing farmers or exploiters with these nerfs. You are hurting the storytellers that produce legitimate content.
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And that's what I would call a farm. It doesn't take much creativity to fill an entire map with spawns of critters to mow down. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
The looming restriction placed on editors now because of this change prevents us from using about half of the objectives. Pretty much the only safe thing we can do now is make nothing but missions where you only fight badguys.
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I'm not terribly worried about this, because I think it's pretty obvious that this patch failed to achieve its goals, and did far too much collateral damage. And yes, it would be better to roll this back and endure a week or so more of buff bots in missions --- they've been around since Meow and Cow were king --- than to leave up a patch that is fairly clearly not working as intended.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
The Devs cannot stop farming or powerlevelling. They will never be able to. Fact.
Here's a better short-term fix. You can have this one for free:
Disallow the Force Field & Sonic Bubble from allies.
After you've done that put "limiting number of allies that follow the player" on the rainy day schedule. This should be the ultimate long term fix for the "exploits" and AI issues encountered with 15+ allies following the player around the map.
A blanket reduction of XP just indicates paranoia about powerlevelling and a lack of foresight to the health of the game. Since when was Bill Roper working on City of Heroes?
It would seem to have been inadequately tested, and ought to be rolled back. The fix is worse than the problem here.
Then they are shocked that people actually spend the hordes of inf on rare items ??
It also doesnt help that the enhancements come in three categories. Total crap that isn't worth lugging to the vendor, things that are barely worth slotting, and finally things actually worth including in your build
I really have to agree about the micromanagement issues here. MMOs are meant to be worlds not television shows.