Put on your speculation caps


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

So what would the expected result be of a roll system where you can choose the max level of the recipes you receive, but not the level bracket you draw from? That is, one where you can choose to roll at "level 41", and then receive recipes from any bracket 41 or below? Would the merit cost of random rolls need to be adjusted? And as a side note, would adjusting the merit cost of random rolls be helpful regardless?


@SPTrashcan
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Posted

I still don't get the "need" for sub-50 anything. I also don't understand why it's on me (the general me) to list crap that has no bids.


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lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit

 

Posted

Can you clarify what you mean by sub-50 recipes? Are we talking about recipes from brackets that don't go to 50, or are we talking about recipes in brackets that go to 50 that are not themselves level 50? Because I have a keen interest in level 41-44 Crushing Impacts (read: outstanding bids). And, for that matter, level 29 Basilisk Gazes.

As for things that lack both demand and supply, it's not possible for me to tell whether those things are truly unwanted or whether those who want them have just given up on obtaining them through the market. The devs, on the other hand, can look at what's doing a brisk trade at the Merit store regardless of exorbitant prices.


@SPTrashcan
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Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slax View Post
I still don't get the "need" for sub-50 anything. I also don't understand why it's on me (the general me) to list crap that has no bids.
Set bonuses only work if your combat level (as opposed to security level) is no more than 3 levels below the level of the IO. Consequently people who want to keep their set bonuses when they exemplar down for TFs and such will routinely slot lower level IOs so that they do (level 30-33 are popular since they are slightly more powerful than SOs and work for two-thirds of the sub-50 TFs int he game.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Set bonuses only work if your combat level (as opposed to security level) is no more than 3 levels below the level of the IO. Consequently people who want to keep their set bonuses when they exemplar down for TFs and such will routinely slot lower level IOs so that they do (level 30-33 are popular since they are slightly more powerful than SOs and work for two-thirds of the sub-50 TFs int he game.
Yes, we get why folks WANT them.

I think his point was if the items in question don't move for days (sometimes weeks on the BM) and tie up one of his limited marketing slots, what is the incentive for him to list them.

Also goes to the heart of my original objection to one of the suggestions earlier. If it's tieing up my markets slots for days because no one is buying it what is the rational reason for charging me a HIGHER market fee, for something that's out of my control? Isn't this a further disincentive for me to list such items?


Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

Sub-50 IO are also nice to have if you're playing a sub-50 character. Sub-50 is where most of the time on my characters is spent, so set IO are going to benefit me the most sub-50. Purples, those are end-game for the 50 set. I don't think non-purples need to be. No, you may not be able to slot *everything* you want by 50, but you should be able to fill in a good bit of your build.


I think sets like Kinetic Combat are the most out-of-whack. It tops out at level 35, but you have one piece selling for 120M, another couple at 60M. Yes, those are rares, but for non-50s that's a decent chunk of inf - more than many would be expected to have at that level (I need to check up on Mope) w/o having inf passed down. Also seems backwards to have to wait until 50 to really start generating the inf to be able to buy level 35s (and red-side, 20-34 probably doesn't exist).


Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
Yes, we get why folks WANT them.

I think his point was if the items in question don't move for days (sometimes weeks on the BM) and tie up one of his limited marketing slots, what is the incentive for him to list them.

Also goes to the heart of my original objection to one of the suggestions earlier. If it's tieing up my markets slots for days because no one is buying it what is the rational reason for charging me a HIGHER market fee, for something that's out of my control? Isn't this a further disincentive for me to list such items?
Bingo.

If you want them, bid on them so sellers know there is an interest and at least make it a decent bid.


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
Bingo.

If you want them, bid on them so sellers know there is an interest and at least make it a decent bid.
I agree with you , but then again, we have marketers using up a valuable slot with a "pointless" bid. I sometimes do this, but I put in a way low-ball bid. I need to get paid for my time.

People who use the market don't generally waste their time and slots on "garbage". Casual players may, but it sucks to put something useful up for trade and nothing transacts over a two month period.


Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
Bingo.

If you want them, bid on them so sellers know there is an interest and at least make it a decent bid.
I'm vastly more likely to list a marginal item if I see bids for it than otherwise.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

i think the ability to email inf will increase prices on just about everything, as long as there is something to buy. People will say "hey, I've only got 10mm on this toon and that's not enough to buy what I want. I'll send some over from one of my 50s"


Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
I'm vastly more likely to list a marginal item if I see bids for it than otherwise.
I'm vastly more likely to bid on a marginal item if the last completed transaction was less than a month ago. My market slots are valuable too, y'know. Maybe I'll just buy it for myself with merits. Vicious cycle, downward spiral.


@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
I'm vastly more likely to bid on a marginal item if the last completed transaction was less than a month ago. My market slots are valuable too, y'know. Maybe I'll just buy it for myself with merits. Vicious cycle, downward spiral.
use your slots however you like.
absent systemic change the BM will remain a wasteland whatever individual actors choose to list or not list.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

For the last few months, I have been listing "decent" crafted pieces from level 28 up. Some of these are pool Cs acquired with merit rolls, others are pools A and B that I got as drops. Things like Ghost Widow, Impervium Armor, Red Fortune, Crushing Impacts, Kismet, Efficiency Adaptor, Adjusted Targetting, Multi-Strike. Not the top shelf stuff but not the dregs either. They have pretty good set bonuses and are great for frankenslotting. I use lots of stuff like that as I level up.

I put them for sale a good bit under last 5 and they usually sit there for months -- either side. Occassionally, I'll get lucky and something sells for 10-20 million. But usually it's stuff that goes for 2 - 3 million, if at all. I don't mind the tying up the slots as I have lots of characters and I can't play them all. But this morning I ran out of slots on my latest project -- a Traps/DP defender -- and just deleted 3 pieces that have been there since February.

I started doing this as part of Fulmen's Mid-Level Crisis and I thought I would be filling a community need. But if the last 5 are currently showing November through September of 2009 there's no point to listing them, even as a community service.

It seems that everyone is after the same premier sets and procs and everything else is only good to line your bird cage.


50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

 

Posted

In case it wasn't clear, my point was not so much to complain about the behavior of other people as to note the futility in complaining about the behavior of other people. People do what is best for them, and can't be faulted for doing so; to induce people to do the "right thing", the system must make it the right thing for them.

And by them, of course, I mean me.


@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Posted

Apropos of nothing: Lemme know what you've got for sale, Flea, and I will buy it for an inflated price and relist it.

Come to think of it, this goes for everyone else in this thread.

Maybe I shouldn't be posting after a fresh bottle of wine, but I'll buy ALL Y'ALL'S POOL Cs OFF THE MARKET! FOR NOTHING LESS THAN A MILLION!

Maybe when I'm sober I'll change that to ten million.


Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata View Post
i think the ability to email inf will increase prices on just about everything, as long as there is something to buy. People will say "hey, I've only got 10mm on this toon and that's not enough to buy what I want. I'll send some over from one of my 50s"
The ability to email inf won't increase prices, because it won't be a factor in increasing the amount of inf entering the market. If you have 10 characters with 10 million each for a total of 100 million, and you move all that inf to one character, you still have 100 million. More people might bid on big-ticket items, but any significant price increases would likely be due to unrelated factors.


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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
So what would the expected result be of a roll system where you can choose the max level of the recipes you receive, but not the level bracket you draw from? That is, one where you can choose to roll at "level 41", and then receive recipes from any bracket 41 or below? Would the merit cost of random rolls need to be adjusted? And as a side note, would adjusting the merit cost of random rolls be helpful regardless?
Interesting...
I wouldn't be too surprised if they worked in a fix for this into the crafting system - possibly something resembling the way that you can now build the Craftable SG Base Items with either 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Tier Salvage.

I can see them working something like this into Set IO Crafting to shift a Recipe 'up' or 'down' a tier, say... 5 levels, and then maybe even allowing for further tweaking of level = at an inflated Inf cost (aka Inf Sink) to adjust the final Level of a completed Crafted IO - by an additional 1 to 4 levels, allowing players to "fine tune" a Crafted Set IO's level for a specific build.

So if you wanted - you could to take a level 24 Recipe, and Craft it using the standard (for the recipe) next lowest Tier of salvage - (and an increased Inf "Crafting Fee" (on top of the current price) to bring it down to Level 19... and then optionally - pay another (more serious Inf Sink) to tweak it down another 1-4, to a specific level = somewhere between 18 to 15.
So that, if you REALLY wanted to have a 'Dual Build' IO'd, specifically for Exemp'ing down to the level of your favorite TF/SF... or maybe a particular Ouroboros Flashbacking Level Range.

Something similar to this could be an additional Inf Sink, AND make some of those "off-level" Recipes... Potentially much more useful. Which just might be enough to get people to list these Recipes on the market instead of having them becoming Vendor Fodder. Or it could keep them from falling victim to the dastardly 'Delete-On-Drop Syndrome' - that takes away so many good Recipes before their time.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardiff_Giant View Post
I can see them working something like this into Set IO Crafting to shift a Recipe 'up' or 'down' a tier, say... 5 levels, and then maybe even allowing for further tweaking of level = at an inflated Inf cost (aka Inf Sink) to adjust the final Level of a completed Crafted IO - by an additional 1 to 4 levels, allowing players to "fine tune" a Crafted Set IO's level for a specific build.

So if you wanted - you could to take a level 24 Recipe, and Craft it using the standard (for the recipe) next lowest Tier of salvage - (and an increased Inf "Crafting Fee" (on top of the current price) to bring it down to Level 19... and then optionally - pay another (more serious Inf Sink) to tweak it down another 1-4, to a specific level = somewhere between 18 to 15.
A spin on that was my other idea, which went over much better.


Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull View Post
The ability to email inf won't increase prices, because it won't be a factor in increasing the amount of inf entering the market. If you have 10 characters with 10 million each for a total of 100 million, and you move all that inf to one character, you still have 100 million. More people might bid on big-ticket items, but any significant price increases would likely be due to unrelated factors.
But "entering the market" can be taken from a broader perspective here. Yes, being able to email inf around won't actually add a single inf to the game world that wasn't already there but it will make it easier to shuffle around that inf to a single character as a better-leveraged resource. Not everyone has multiple accounts to make such inf transfer easy. Even getting a friend or SG mate to mule inf between two alts involves resources that players might not always have (trust, or SG/friends for that matter).

I believe results of the shift to merit drops as TF rewards is a concrete example of this behavior at play. We saw a recipe shortage after the merits change, but why would we if merits equaled out to the same if not more ability to create random rolls? Because people sit on small merit amounts, there is no easy way to leverage the few merits across multiple alts to a reasonable pool of merits on a single alt. If folks could trade merits I've no doubt that "merit efficiency" would increase significantly.



Umber's Hall of Heroes & Villains

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umber View Post
We saw a recipe shortage after the merits change, but why would we if merits equaled out to the same if not more ability to create random rolls? Because people sit on small merit amounts, there is no easy way to leverage the few merits across multiple alts to a reasonable pool of merits on a single alt. If folks could trade merits I've no doubt that "merit efficiency" would increase significantly.
Lots of people have the misapprehension that random rolls only get you junk (I call this the Evil Ryu Fallacy) so they save up and buy what they want.

The old system basically forced everyone to roll, which generated excess for the market. Merits encourage safety first types and people who are bad at math NOT to roll, which saps supply.

If folks could trade merits some would roll, sure, but many would just accumulate big piles to blow on the specific shiny they wanted for their builds.

/edit
forgot villains, who can't usually sell their stuff and buy what they want like heroes- in their case, saving merits and buying specific recipes is probably the most efficient way to go about things.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umber View Post
....
I believe results of the shift to merit drops as TF rewards is a concrete example of this behavior at play. We saw a recipe shortage after the merits change, but why would we if merits equaled out to the same if not more ability to create random rolls? Because people sit on small merit amounts, there is no easy way to leverage the few merits across multiple alts to a reasonable pool of merits on a single alt. If folks could trade merits I've no doubt that "merit efficiency" would increase significantly.
This is the first serious, useful comment in this junk.

People save merits for 150-250 merit recipes. That is a lot of other potential recipes. Including a chance at one of the 150-250 merit recipes. If one of those recipes sells for 150-300mil, you should be able to get perhaps 1/2 that or better rolling merits instead of hoarding them. People are in it for the mad cash. If the only way to make the mad cash is to hoard, marketeer, or buy it, those are the ways people will do it. The merit and AE ideas were both good ideas, but failed to address shortage caused by marketeers. It is a simplistic matter to weight cost of IO rolls from merits or tickets by tying it to the markets, or active population of either red or blue side. Right now, merits are simply not good enough to do anything with than hoard for big ticket items. Make that a non-truth, and you will see supply in each market stabalize at an equilibrium point. When merits were introduced, they were introduced arbitrarily, with the assumption being "this risk meets this reward", without concious consideration of what that reward might be. That should probably be rethought, as it is obvious that merit and ticket rewards are far from linear in progression.


-------
Hew in drag baby

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
The old system basically forced everyone to roll, which generated excess for the market. Merits encourage safety first types and people who are bad at math NOT to roll, which saps supply.
Agreement with the whole post, this is an expansion on my comments on efficient leveraging put to a finer point. Altho I should say the hording aspect is holding hands with the multi-alt "I have 19 merits left, oh well they will just sit there until I remember to run a short ouro arc" scenario. People are sitting on merits until they get 200 for the LotG or 20 for the random roll, either way its sitting outside the market that pooling would allow improved efficiency. That was my point in comparing to emailing inf and how many alts sit on small amounts of such.



Umber's Hall of Heroes & Villains

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umber View Post
But "entering the market" can be taken from a broader perspective here. Yes, being able to email inf around won't actually add a single inf to the game world that wasn't already there but it will make it easier to shuffle around that inf to a single character as a better-leveraged resource. Not everyone has multiple accounts to make such inf transfer easy. Even getting a friend or SG mate to mule inf between two alts involves resources that players might not always have (trust, or SG/friends for that matter).
At this point red-side I have enough (well, relatively enough) in one character that I can have him buy/craft what is needed for lower toons and drop it in the base (SG of one) enhancement bin. Pretty simple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
Lots of people have the misapprehension that random rolls only get you junk (I call this the Evil Ryu Fallacy) so they save up and buy what they want.

The old system basically forced everyone to roll, which generated excess for the market. Merits encourage safety first types and people who are bad at math NOT to roll, which saps supply.

If folks could trade merits some would roll, sure, but many would just accumulate big piles to blow on the specific shiny they wanted for their builds.

/edit
forgot villains, who can't usually sell their stuff and buy what they want like heroes- in their case, saving merits and buying specific recipes is probably the most efficient way to go about things.
Even for my villains I figure there's a good enough chance that I'll roll something that even if the character rolling doesn't need it, another one will. If not, I'll sell it. If it's crap...so be it. Overall I figure I'm ahead.


Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level