Put on your speculation caps
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-04-05 07:58 in The Market and Inventions
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Micronian: Don't you hate it when other people do what THEY want instead of what YOU want?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's all so very unfair!!11
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This is why dem dar markets dun not bees wut da Devies wants.
Maybe that will get through....
Perhapse if we did what was meant to be done rather then what ever we felt like this would work...nah!...insanity!
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Words to live by.
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Precisely, I COULD tie up one of my slots for an indefinite period listing vendor trash to ensure that when someone wants it they can get it at a reasonable price OR I take my 10K inf from vendoring the recipe and use my time and market slots for activities that make a higher and faster profit. Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism.
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Originally Posted by Micronian
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Words to live by.
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What you propose wouldnt happen...with the sugestion I refered to. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Precisely, I COULD tie up one of my slots for an indefinite period listing vendor trash to ensure that when someone wants it they can get it at a reasonable price OR I take my 10K inf from vendoring the recipe and use my time and market slots for activities that make a higher and faster profit. Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism.
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RIF!
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What suggestion? You've made three posts in this thread, none of which have either made a suggestion or responded to a someone making a suggestion (or even someone commenting on someone's suggestion).
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Originally Posted by Micronian
What you propose wouldnt happen...with the sugestion I refered to.
RIF! |
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I had the suggestion of making random recipe rolls cost less at lower levels (I gave the example of 10 for 1-20, 15 for 21-40, 20 for 41+) to try to encourage rolling sub-50, but it got shouted down on the basis that folks (read: ebil marketeers) could turn off xp and continue to roll at lower levels, exploiting the system (basically what Midlevel Crisis already does, just for cheaper). Though a couple of the vocal opponents pretty much oppose everything, it seems.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I don't think that there is a technical solution for this other than eliminating merits entirely. It really comes down to knowledge. For someone who spends time studying the market and looks at the drop tables then it becomes obvious that making rolls in a lower bracket makes a lot of sense (although which lower bracket depends on who you ask). For someone who just wants to convert their merits into recipes (either for use or sale) so that they can get back to playing it isn't obvious, the level 45-50 bracket sounds like the logical choice because that way you get the high level recipes which sounds better.
The problem with specifying the level versus the bracket is that some people will want to roll level 50 recipes (since even with the introduction of a slider there will always be more demand for them) but in a lower bracket so that they can get some of the better ones there (like Kinetic Combat) so allowing us to specify level but not bracket could well end up decreasing the supply of those recipes. |
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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I'd rate those as relative of our own patrol XP, or WoW's rested XP....things I would call a feature rather than a reward. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Two examples right off the top of my head:
* Ikaruga grants an extra continue per game for each hour of play (so, even if you are a total failure, you will eventually have enough continues to make it to the end of the game). * Guilty Gear XX has an alternate path for unlocking special features based on hours of play logged in addition to the standard path via achievements. |
To recklessly analogize, drops for being defeated would be like casinos paying out for losing at blackjack, or roulette. To carry it on a bit farther, patrol XP and the like are the video game version of casinos trying to keep chronic losers playing with free meal vouchers and tickets to Cirque du Soleil.
A 'thank you' to loyal customers or a bribe to suckers, depending on your viewpoint.
I think you bring up a good point as to why some players are so inimical to PvP. The PvE experience here basically guarantees success, the only question is the rate at which you achieve victory ('good' players do it efficiently, 'bad' ones do it slowly). A cutthroat environment of direct competition with clear cut winners and losers won't have wide acceptance among players acclimatized to certain victory. Come to think of it, the market falls under that same umbrella (although it is vastly easier to master than PvP).
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Your dialect isn't the problem, but rather the poverty of your ideas.
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Originally Posted by Micronian
That rite thar dun made my pointy like thing.
This is why dem dar markets dun not bees wut da Devies wants. Maybe that will get through.... |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
My ideas:
- Make PvP kills have the same chance to drop salvage and Pool A and B as bosses. Even if I don't get a PvP drop, at least I may get something worthwhile every now and then.
- Change the bonuses offered from "junk." If you replaced debt reduction with +influence, and combined all the various hold, sleep, stun, and confuse resistance with a general Mez Resistance, and made similar changes more people would want them.
- Curb XP and influence. At the rate we earn XP and influence, nobody stays in the thirties for more than a few hours of game time.
- Allow players to pick level of merit rolls.
- Merge the markets. Or at LEAST let the Praetorian market access both sides creating a virtual merged market.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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Last five sales of the Kinetic Combat Dam/End/Rech lvl 35 Recipe redside: 2010-04-12, 2010-04-09, 2010-04-09, 2010-04-09, 2010-04-09|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I'm not convinced that this is needed. There are enough people doing random rolls to support the supply of odd recipes at max level. Similarly enough people go for the guaranteed Inf to support a low level market of the useful globals (BotZ and LotG in particular). The ones that are having a bit of a problem are ones like Basalisk's Gaze and Kinetic combat, popular sets that stop below 50. The problem here isn't the single recipe cost it's that not enough people do the lower level rolls.
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Last five sales of the Unbounded Leap +Stealth lvl 35 Recipe redside:
2010-03-20, 2010-02-18, 2009-10-16, 2009-09-22, 2009-09-18. And the last one sold for 150 million, as have many of the recent low-level stealth recipes. Not surprising, since if you're outbid you will have to wait a month or two for another recipe to be listed.
I consider the second scenario to be a bigger problem than the first. I want that Stealth IO while I'm leveling. I want those level 35 LotG +rech for exemping. I want to be able to get them without freezing my character at 35, or buying them outright with merits, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels the same and would roll for recipes at a lower level if possible.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Or to phrase it slightly more charitably, cutthroat competition doesn't appeal to players acclimated to working together for success. The problem with a lot of the existing PvP rewards is that, like PvE rewards, they're easier to obtain when everyone works together to obtain them. Rather than encouraging PvP, it encourages cooperative behavior in a zone ostensibly intended for competition, leading to interminable arguments between those who want to use the zone for its labeled purpose and those who observe what its design actually rewards. Why aren't you fighting versus why can't you leave me alone.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
A cutthroat environment of direct competition with clear cut winners and losers won't have wide acceptance among players acclimatized to certain victory.
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I don't have any stake in a particular PvP rewards scheme, but I definitely think that the devs need to more closely consider what behavior they are actually incentivizing and what behavior they want to see.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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Well in the case of the Unbounded Leap and the mid level LotG that would be helped by allowing us to specify the level we want for the recipe when doing random rolls (which you'll note I supported).|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Last five sales of the Kinetic Combat Dam/End/Rech lvl 35 Recipe redside: 2010-04-12, 2010-04-09, 2010-04-09, 2010-04-09, 2010-04-09
Last five sales of the Unbounded Leap +Stealth lvl 35 Recipe redside: 2010-03-20, 2010-02-18, 2009-10-16, 2009-09-22, 2009-09-18. And the last one sold for 150 million, as have many of the recent low-level stealth recipes. Not surprising, since if you're outbid you will have to wait a month or two for another recipe to be listed. I consider the second scenario to be a bigger problem than the first. I want that Stealth IO while I'm leveling. I want those level 35 LotG +rech for exemping. I want to be able to get them without freezing my character at 35, or buying them outright with merits, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels the same and would roll for recipes at a lower level if possible. |
The Kinetic Combat is more a matter of education. Personally I do my rolls in the 35-39 bracket in part so that I can get Kinetic Combats precisely because it tends to sell well. The problem is if you don't follow the market and study the tables on the wiki you have no real way of knowing which level bracket offers the best options so the instinct is to roll level 45-50. I don't think that there is technical solution for this other than replacing the current set of rolls with a single one that awards a recipe of any level. I'm against this since it would hurt the supply of recipes from the upper brackets which are generally more useful than the ones in the lower level ranges (there are exceptions obviously).
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You stated the availablility of Basilisk's Gaze and Kinetic Combats as a problem. I disagree. The problem in my view is the availability of sub-max-level recipes. If I can buy a big-ticket item within a week at a "buy it within a week" price, I don't personally consider the supply problematic. If it takes a month to buy at a "buy it nao" price, then it's a problem.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The Kinetic Combat is more a matter of education. Personally I do my rolls in the 35-39 bracket in part so that I can get Kinetic Combats precisely because it tends to sell well. The problem is if you don't follow the market and study the tables on the wiki you have no real way of knowing which level bracket offers the best options so the instinct is to roll level 45-50. I don't think that there is technical solution for this other than replacing the current set of rolls with a single one that awards a recipe of any level. I'm against this since it would hurt the supply of recipes from the upper brackets which are generally more useful than the ones in the lower level ranges (there are exceptions obviously).
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I'm the guy that spent 18 months trying to blunt random salvage price spikes by logging in twice a day and trying to keep 10 of each midlevel salvage in stock. |
Originally Posted by Micronian
That rite thar dun made my pointy like thing.
This is why dem dar markets dun not bees wut da Devies wants. Maybe that will get through.... Perhapse if we did what was meant to be done rather then what ever we felt like this would work...nah!...insanity! Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Words to live by. |
I'm the guy that started Midlevel Crisis (and Teenage Wildlife) to get people out there generating rares at midlevels.
I'm the guy that is currently bribing people to roll sub-40 rares, 20 million per recipe.
So tell me. What have YOU done for the redside market, lately? Aside from telling me that I should obey your rules, of course.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
<QR>
From conversations I had at PAX (paraphrased, not direct quotes):
- The team would be highly reluctant to seed the lvl 51-53 stuff to kill hoarding. (I suggested it as a joke, the reply was akin to "No, people would quit the game.")
- Posi told me to list my stored items and save the market, this reminded me of the cartel problem, it would work (to what degree is debatable) if everyone did it, if I'm the only one who does I lose out, if I'm the only one who "cheats" and hoards I have an "unfair" advantage.
My beliefs:
- The devs will approach this with the best of intentions, but not necessarily the best of results. Personally I use the market to kit out my toons, making inf and gathering sets I commonly use along the way. I'd love to kit all my toons out faster but realize patience is key to success. I'd resent any sort of socialistic controls and hope this is not where this is headed.
- The best way to solve this is to tweak the drop rate and SLIGHTLY increase it for desirables (purples, PvP IOs, a few C/D sets)
- I don't think changing the inf or bid cap is a good idea. VERY few items sell for more than 2 billion and if that's an artifical ceiling the drop rate is too low. Conversely, lowering the bid cap would send more items off market.
- I'm curious as to what incarnate "abilities" (Posi's term, neither he nor War Witch nor 8 would elaborate) are. This would likely add slots for existing IOs or new IO/IO like items which would no doubt affect the market.
- Bind on Pickup/Equip works in games where people don't have 57 alts (number is a SWAG, but you get the idea) and where bind was in from the start, here it would bring more resentment than anything else.
- The devs should get the opinions of the masses as to the pain points. They should run their draft solutions by some of the "ebils" for feedback on possible exploits/unintended consequences. This is not to build a perfect solution for the ebils (and I count myself as one, I make 10-20x flipping as I do playing) but one that's vetted by them. Otherwise you'll have more e-rage later on as the ebils break the bank in production again.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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Boy if that doesn't prove the disconnect... |
Originally Posted by Slax
- Posi told me to list my stored items and save the market
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Boy if that doesn't prove the disconnect...
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Didn't you know all the problems are my fault?
I hoard crafted IOs, PvP, play the market, power level, speed run, and play the game the way I want to.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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I don't give a damn if you can't get the lvl 25 to 35 IOs you want (notice I didn't say need). I'm not here to play the game for you.
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Originally Posted by Micronian
By all of your replies, you are going to rail against anything that helps the "lower class."
Seems many are going to do this. Seems many think that what I found Ideal to be completely a waste of time. Slot lvl 25 to 35 frakenslotting...forever...never going higher, because its cheap. The supply just isnt there, red side of course. The proposed fix would fix it, quickly. But junk to you will get deleted...yeah thats thinking past your own nose... |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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And I'll keep deleting stuff like lvl 25 IOs that I consider to be junk.|
Originally Posted by Micronian
That rite thar dun made my pointy like thing.
This is why dem dar markets dun not bees wut da Devies wants. Maybe that will get through.... Perhapse if we did what was meant to be done rather then what ever we felt like this would work...nah!...insanity! Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Words to live by. |
If that bothers you go cry in the corner about it.
/shrug.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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rotflmao!
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Originally Posted by swellguy
boy if that doesn't prove the disconnect...
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I'll let my wife know so it won't be my fault.
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Originally Posted by Slax
Didn't you know all the problems are my fault?
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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what, and ruin my street cred?!?!
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Or to phrase it slightly more charitably....
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Originally Posted by Slax
- Posi told me to list my stored items and save the market....
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list the stuff you hoarded because the market is so awful to fix the market is the deformed sibling of the ever popular PLAY MOAR VILLAINS 'solution' to BM woes.
good to know the devs are still in love with Magic Pony Plans.
*thumbsup*
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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And if you may recall I did do exactly that for months from around December 08-April 09. It didn't seem to work as far as I could tell.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
list the stuff you hoarded because the market is so awful to fix the market is the deformed sibling of the ever popular PLAY MOAR VILLAINS 'solution' to BM woes.
good to know the devs are still in love with Magic Pony Plans. *thumbsup* |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I don't think it's as large a problem as the issue of sub-50 recipes but I do think the supply is lower than it really should be to support the demand and that is driving up the prices. It's symptomatic of the overall market issues IMHO in that items tend to have either excess supply or almost no supply.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
You stated the availablility of Basilisk's Gaze and Kinetic Combats as a problem. I disagree. The problem in my view is the availability of sub-max-level recipes. If I can buy a big-ticket item within a week at a "buy it within a week" price, I don't personally consider the supply problematic. If it takes a month to buy at a "buy it nao" price, then it's a problem.
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Whether it would work to get people in zones or not, I can't see the devs going that route.
* Ikaruga grants an extra continue per game for each hour of play (so, even if you are a total failure, you will eventually have enough continues to make it to the end of the game).
* Guilty Gear XX has an alternate path for unlocking special features based on hours of play logged in addition to the standard path via achievements.
Note also that in the PvE game, where only success is rewarded, much is also done to virtually guarantee the possibility of some level of success - because spending time and getting nothing is a great way to persuade people that an activity is not worth their time. Right now, if only success is rewarded, then PvP is not worth my time, period, because success is not guaranteed, nor even the possibility thereof, and any reward system for success alone that would make my level of success in PvP worth my time would be a ludicrous jackpot for anyone who actually knew what they were doing. So yes, I think this is a place where participation rewards are indicated. They're certainly more indicated than the current zone reward structure (or anything resembling it), which gives the greatest reward in the least time if you avoid PvP altogether!
But I'm not a dev, and cannot speak to their reasoning.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs