Put on your speculation caps


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

After reading all the posts so far in this thread, I'll throw in my two cents:

- for the love of all that is holy, DO NOT EVER put in a BoA mechanic into this game. It is the most moronic concept I've ever heard of for an MMO.

- the markets are fine. If anything, I'd say raise the inf cap so people aren't forced to avoid the market for ultra-high demand items. I've seen one offered at 6 billion!

- please, please, please do not try to curtail the storage available. It's one of the things I love about this game and in fact is the ONLY MMO I know of to let you have so much.

- If you can't make money on the markets, you really aren't trying. In 30 mins per day, it took me 10 whole days to make 1 billion redside. No spreadsheets, no tracking, just a little bit of looking at what was in demand. FWIW, it's takes me about a month to do it blueside using the same lazy methods.

I really don't understand what problem needs fixing, aside perhaps from some rarity of purples redside. However, with the coming GR update, I forsee more players enjoying the superior redside content, and thus generating more supply.


 

Posted

Back to OP, I suspect that the main change coming to the markets is an interface that lets you sort crafted enhancements more efficiently. There may be a "bid across a range" change, but I hope not.


Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html

 

Posted

A few thoughts...

Swellguy's OP: Sliding market fees make things more complicated, which I don't personally like, but the devs don't seem to have a problem with. It might very well encourage people to list items low in order to get a quick sale, but the result would be that the supply of items for sale at any given moment would drop. We'd see more empty shelves. Empty shelves tend to cause jagged price jumps. I don't think this would overall be a fix.

dave_p's idea: I don't think it's a bad idea, but I also don't think it addresses the problems that I imagine the devs are looking to solve. If nobody wants to buy stuff, then nobody really cares what happens to it. It's the high price, low volume stuff that gets the player base worked up. It's hard to tell what gets the devs worked up.

So, as Mandur12 points out, the first part of the game is to figure out what it is that the devs see as a problem. I'm going to guess it's something like:

1. Prices are high enough to scare off new players and anger some others.
2. Reduced supply of sub-50 recipes.
3. Some hero/villain disparity

Given those problems, I would speculate these solutions:
1. Reduce the vendor price on high level common IO recipes
2. Increase the crafting price set recipes, especially high value ones
3. Tie the level of recipe drops to the character, not the mob (I suspect this is a much harder change than it sounds like).
4. Lower merit costs for lower level recipes.
5. Increase merit rewards for all strike forces
6. Add new strike forces

Personally, I think #3 there deserves some consideration. I don't know about everyone else, but it seems to me that SSK has increased the number of low level characters playing on high level teams. People can exemp down, but that seems less popular. As a result, a lot of low level drops have been replaced with high level drops. That makes for more influence and higher prices overall, while at the same time lowering the availability of mid and low level recipes.

Unfortunately, it's the kind of change that would really hit at the heart of the loot drop code, so the devs might be reluctant to tinker with it. If they did, though, what would the result be?


Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie

 

Posted

#3 reminds me - not that these recipes are typically rare, but don't mission complete drops drop at natural character level rather than exemplared level (i.e. I flashback Crash Cage, and get not a Cloud Senses: Accuracy/Recharge but a Siphon Insight: Accuracy/Recharge)? I wouldn't mind seeing that changed.

(actually, this is basically the opposite of #3...and I like the idea of getting mob-level drops when I'm running Oroboros)


Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
Or simply delete it.
folks already delete junk drops.

eliminating storage might raise the 'junk' threshold, but anything people actually want would rapidly appreciate in value, which would inspire listings. Just like when some badger or bored marketeer buys up the supply of some 'worthless' salvage and it becomes temporarily worth listing.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
I really don't understand what problem needs fixing, aside perhaps from some rarity of purples redside.
Huh.
That's quite a pair of rose colored glasses you've got there, pardner.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
Huh.
That's quite a pair of rose colored glasses you've got there, pardner.
OK, fair enough. I tend to play for a few months at a time, then barely touch my characters again for another few months, but keep my subscription active.

I never have trouble making inf, either side. And except for some purples redside, I never have trouble finding what I want for my builds. I tend to not bother with anything other than generics until my characters reach 50.

So, I'll bite. Educate me as to what problems exist with the market as it stands.


 

Posted

Ah man, don't you guys know, fixing the BM and WW is creating an exploit in the game, and the devs are trying to keep as many out of the game as possible. Since not everyone is entitled to purples and pvp drops... Just the really really really lucky, or the farmers who spend days to years of their lives doing the same thing over and over again. Anything more would be "unbalanced" or an exploit.

(edit: Sarcasm is a second language to me.)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSwamper View Post

I really don't understand what problem needs fixing, aside perhaps from some rarity of purples redside. However, with the coming GR update, I forsee more players enjoying the superior redside content, and thus generating more supply.
Unless they have crossed over completely to being a villain that supply will still go to Wentworths so people will have access to villain content and hero market and vice versa depending on their alignment position.


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSwamper View Post
OK, fair enough. I tend to play for a few months at a time, then barely touch my characters again for another few months, but keep my subscription active.

I never have trouble making inf, either side. And except for some purples redside, I never have trouble finding what I want for my builds. I tend to not bother with anything other than generics until my characters reach 50.

So, I'll bite. Educate me as to what problems exist with the market as it stands.
Making inf isn't the problem, supply is.
The supply problems of the BM are so well documented I don't feel obligated to restate them here. Likewise the paucity of IO recipes below max level on both sides of the game.

And your claims of "never having any trouble" filling out your builds aren't going to sway anyone minus specifics.

My stalker doesn't have any trouble filling out his build either......because he's only using generics. For him it's "fine".

Likewise, taking off months at a time would tend to nullify the uber slow pace of the BM.

It can still be broken without being a problem for you, specifically.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpeter View Post
3. Tie the level of recipe drops to the character, not the mob (I suspect this is a much harder change than it sounds like).
<snip>
Unfortunately, it's the kind of change that would really hit at the heart of the loot drop code, so the devs might be reluctant to tinker with it. If they did, though, what would the result be?
My guess: Greater availability of sub-50 recipes. Much higher prices on purples due to significantly lowered generation.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSwamper View Post
- for the love of all that is holy, DO NOT EVER put in a BoA mechanic into this game. It is the most moronic concept I've ever heard of for an MMO.
Well, playing 5 years.... have made billions.... and I have no idea what "BoA" means (aside from Bank of America). Want to clue me in?


Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by gec72 View Post
#3 reminds me - not that these recipes are typically rare, but don't mission complete drops drop at natural character level rather than exemplared level (i.e. I flashback Crash Cage, and get not a Cloud Senses: Accuracy/Recharge but a Siphon Insight: Accuracy/Recharge)? I wouldn't mind seeing that changed.

(actually, this is basically the opposite of #3...and I like the idea of getting mob-level drops when I'm running Oroboros)
Not exactly. The merit/ticket roll uses the exact same mechanic as the mission complete reward: The level of the mission determines which pool the recipe comes from, your level determines the level of the recipe. In your example, the low level recipe would be obtained, but at the highest level it exists at.


@Roderick

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSwamper View Post
- the markets are fine. If anything, I'd say raise the inf cap so people aren't forced to avoid the market for ultra-high demand items. I've seen one offered at 6 billion!
Currently everything on the market sells for well under the inf cap except one or two items. In that case it's not the market or the inf cap that's the problem, it's those items. What about them makes them cost so much? The two I'm referring to of course are the Panacea and Glad Armor procs - I really don't understand why the Panacea proc sells for so much because it's a terrible proc, and the reason the GA proc sells for ridiculous amounts is because PvEers want it to softcap their builds and it only drops off rep-valid PvP kills. Simple solutions there are either nerf the benefits those procs provide, increase their drop rate, or introduce another way to obtain them off the market other than drops (i.e. a "merit vendor" just for PvP IOs, which would use PvP reputation as its currency).

If the inf cap was raised beyond 2 billion, the highest they could make it would be 2,147,483,648, as that is the largest number allowed by a 32-bit signed integer. They could remove the signing bit and raise the cap to slightly over 4 billion (4,294,967,295) but that would likely open up a whole new can of worms. If they switched to a 64-bit signed integer the inf cap could be as high as 9.2 quintillion (9,223,372,036,854,775,808) but that would require rewriting the entire game to be 64-bit compatible (I think? someone who knows more than me about this might be able to verify).

Quote:
- please, please, please do not try to curtail the storage available. It's one of the things I love about this game and in fact is the ONLY MMO I know of to let you have so much.
I have a funny, funny feeling that the amount of enhancement storage allowed will be reduced at some point (kind of like what they did to salvage racks when I13 dropped - going from 999 to 30 was so much fun! *rolls eyes*). I have no insider information to go on, of course, I'm just basing this assumption off the fact that Posi mentioned to a friend at PAX that one of the issues with high prices and low supply was people hoarding enhancements. Of course, the reason people hoard them in the first place is because of the supply and price...

Quote:
I really don't understand what problem needs fixing, aside perhaps from some rarity of purples redside. However, with the coming GR update, I forsee more players enjoying the superior redside content, and thus generating more supply.
I'm guessing you've never tried to IO a character using non-max-level sets. The few pieces that enter the market at lower than max level are generally cheaper than the max-level ones (sometimes by a power of ten, or more) but there isn't a reliable enough supply where you could expect to IO a character that way in any decent timeframe. I recall in November 2007 I placed a few bids on non-max-level Decimation triples (don't remember which triple) redside and my stack of bids didn't fully fill until March of the next year.

I won't argue that redside content is better, but blueside has more of it and it's generally more rewarding for the time spent. I seriously doubt enough people will be going fully villain (they'll probably just go vigilante to keep access to the hero market) to impact the Black Market in a positive way.


@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

 

Posted

Quote:
If they switched to a 64-bit signed integer the inf cap could be as high as 9.2 quintillion (9,223,372,036,854,775,808) but that would require rewriting the entire game to be 64-bit compatible (I think? someone who knows more than me about this might be able to verify).
I wrote something once to get around a 32-bit limitation - I had a "number of billions" integer and a "remainder" integer and some rollover checks- so it can be done without rewriting the rest of the game. I don't know if anyone wants to solve this problem, but it should be a small amount of programmer time compared to "I want to see myself in my own mirrored sunglasses" and stuff.

EDIT: Standard code rant aside, devs, if you want I could probably dig up that code and email it to you. Straight 1998 C, man. Old school.


Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

To Macskull: thank you for filling me in. You are correct in that I never bother with non-generics below level 50. Your response was much more informative than the rather condescending one I got from Nethergoat. And despite his doubts on my veracity, I have never had trouble getting the recipes I wanted redside except for a few purples.
Regarding storage, considering I can put a dozen or more storage racks in one base, I'm content with that limitation. It's still a lot more than most MMOs allow.

To Ironblade: BoA means bind on acquire. I mentioned it cause someone else had quoted a dev talking about it as a possibility in this thread.

If there is a shortage problem redside, then I would suggest not increasing the drop rate but increasing both redside content and the desire to play it, perhaps thru, as someone mentioned, increasing red TF merit rewards. I also like the idea of lowering merit costs for lower level recipes.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSwamper View Post
BoA means bind on acquire.
I was wondering about that one too. The only game I ever played with a "Bind" system was WoW, and they use BoE/Bind on Equip and BoP/Bind on Pickup.


@Roderick

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
There are 11,058 Computer Viruses for sale heroside.
69 Springfoot: Endurance recipes at level 50 .
50 Essence Of Curare: Hold/Range at level 50.
16 Focused Smite: Acc/End/Rech at level 40.

What exactly is the problem you're trying to solve here?
And how many of those are available for under the max level? Prolly quite a few, but at all levels, and at decent supply? Aren't we constantly complaining that we can't find mid-level utility IOs (like snipe sets), esp red side?

And from the seller, again, if I get like a level 27 sleep recipe, that's getting trashed (vendored), because I know it'll take months for someone to actually pick it up... which is partly because no one lists it, because it'll take months for someone to buy it, etc. Vicious cycle. If we have a "cache" of unpopular stuff (charity slots work too), you'll get more transactions, because people will figure out that you can get most things, even lvl 27 sleep IOs, at the market now.

Hell, keep the existing store system, but just link all sales to the market. Anything you vendor goes to the market, selling at store prices x2 (or whatever markup). Keep stocks to max at 9999 or something, cuz I'm sure you don't need to keep track of 2,000,000,000 lvl 5 TOs or anything. Then, people who are currently vendoring stuff and never sniff the markets can continue to play as they were (you can continue to delete too). Those of us who use the markets to frankenslot out 20s and 30s toons will see a nice uptick in supply. Hell, we might even see some more expensive stuff go up in supply since this would eliminate accidental vendoring (well, the vendor would still lose out on money, but the item will remain "in play").

Again, whom does this hurt? Other than as a programming challenge (and admittedly there are limited resources, so there might be bigger fish to fry), how does this in any way negatively affect the game?


An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSwamper View Post
If there is a shortage problem redside, then I would suggest not increasing the drop rate but increasing both redside content and the desire to play it, perhaps thru, as someone mentioned, increasing red TF merit rewards. I also like the idea of lowering merit costs for lower level recipes.
Here's the problem. Playing CoH or CoV is an either or situation. Most of our players are not technically locked into one side or the other - if they stay on one side, it's because they prefer it.

Making more CoV content isn't going to get someone to migrate over from CoH if...
  • all their friends play hero side
  • they don't like the idea of playing a villain
  • CoV is harder on their low-end system
  • they dislike the visual style of CoV (often run down and dirty)
  • they dislike playing villains who are usually treated like enforcer thugs instead of people with grand plans to rule the world
  • they dislike playing villains who so often appear to be cogs in a different villain's organization
  • they dislike how the Rogue Isles seem overrun by losers and underachievers, including many positions of power or influence
In other words, the oft-cited problems people have CoV are fairly systemic; they involve things like the design of the zones (both technical and aesthetic), the over-arching story line, and indeed the very notion of playing a bad guy. Upping merit rewards is not likely to sway many of these people at all. They'll just stay on hero side where things work better for them.

This has a lot to do with why those of us who suggest merged markets do so - addressing the kinds of problems identified in that bullet list seems like it would take a pretty hard-core redesign of CoV, and that just doesn't seem likely. Merging the markets lets the people stay on the sides they like while presumably addressing the issue of market liquidity and inventory diversity for villains.

It's not a perfect solution - the perfect solution is to get more people to play CoV. The problem is that there's no indication we could actually achieve that solution. And if we did achieve it without actually adding a lot of completely new players to the system, we would achieve it at a cost to the hero side of the game and thus the hero market.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
It's not a perfect solution - the perfect solution is to get more people to play CoV. The problem is that there's no indication we could actually achieve that solution. And if we did achieve it without actually adding a lot of completely new players to the system, we would achieve it at a cost to the hero side of the game and thus the hero market.
Quoted For Monkey Fighting Truth


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull View Post
9,223,372,036,854,775,808
Off topic: What screenshot elements would be required of a toon capped at 9 quintillion infl? An "I was willed this game account through fifty generations of marketeers on my mother's side" badge?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSwamper View Post
To Macskull: thank you for filling me in. You are correct in that I never bother with non-generics below level 50. Your response was much more informative than the rather condescending one I got from Nethergoat.

I don't have the patience to hold the hands of people who speak in absolutes without knowing their subject.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone