Put on your speculation caps


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
folks already delete junk drops.

eliminating storage might raise the 'junk' threshold, but anything people actually want would rapidly appreciate in value, which would inspire listings. Just like when some badger or bored marketeer buys up the supply of some 'worthless' salvage and it becomes temporarily worth listing.
If the item doesn't sell (looks at redside) for days, weeks cause no wants them, I shouldn't be penalized because of a higher listing fee.

The correct fix would be to create desirable recipes that USE that salvage that no one wants.

But I would not be against an INSTA sell to market feature of the stores. It would work like a deletion for me, but help the market. As long as it doesn't take up a market slot or cost me a fee. I also shouldn't get the inf for it, if it sells. I'm okay with that.

I don't care if it gets to the market and sits in the database for weeks, as long as it's not penalizing me, due to the general population thinking the item is useless.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
If the item doesn't sell (looks at redside) for days, weeks cause no wants them, I shouldn't be penalized because of a higher listing fee.

The correct fix would be to create desirable recipes that USE that salvage that no one wants.
the onus is on the seller to know the market and not bother with 'junk'.
which is the system we have now- I don't bother selling garbage, I delete anything I know will just tie up a slot to no profit.

and in a drop system there is ALWAYS going to be junk.
there's no way to make everything worthwhile and usable- that would in fact defeat much of the purpose of a drop system. Unpredictability of reward is what makes it so psychologically appealing.

[qutoe]But I would not be against an INSTA sell to market feature of the stores. It would work like a deletion for me, but help the market. As long as it doesn't take up a market slot or cost me a fee. I also shouldn't get the inf for it, if it sells. I'm okay with that.[/quote]
How is polluting the market with *more* garbage helping anyone?
the stuff that isn't worth selling isn't worth selling whether you list it yourself or there's some automated feature that lists it for you.

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I don't care if it gets to the market and sits in the database for weeks, as long as it's not penalizing me, due to the general population thinking the item is useless.
if the 'general population' thinks its useless....then it IS useless. the playerbase defines value in this system.
worthless junk cluttering the market doesn't do anybody any good.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
the onus is on the seller to know the market and not bother with 'junk'.
which is the system we have now- I don't bother selling garbage, I delete anything I know will just tie up a slot to no profit.

and in a drop system there is ALWAYS going to be junk.
there's no way to make everything worthwhile and usable- that would in fact defeat much of the purpose of a drop system. Unpredictability of reward is what makes it so psychologically appealing.

*
Quote:
But I would not be against an INSTA sell to market feature of the stores. It would work like a deletion for me, but help the market. As long as it doesn't take up a market slot or cost me a fee. I also shouldn't get the inf for it, if it sells. I'm okay with that.
How is polluting the market with *more* garbage helping anyone?
the stuff that isn't worth selling isn't worth selling whether you list it yourself or there's some automated feature that lists it for you.


if the 'general population' thinks its useless....then it IS useless. the playerbase defines value in this system.
worthless junk cluttering the market doesn't do anybody any good.

My 20-something Plant/Emp who was able to slot low 20s Confuse sets for absolutely nothing disagrees.



I would like an option where if something hasn't sold for a week or so you get a button which lets you instantly Vendor it there and then though, just as a shortcut rather than taking it down and selling it manually or deleting it. I put "trash" up for 5 inf a lot, and buy a fair bit in my early 20s too (at that stage I'm only looking to Frankenslot mostly so I don't have to buy SOs every 5 levels), I'd kinda like some way of encouraging that behaviour.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA View Post
My 20-something Plant/Emp who was able to slot low 20s Confuse sets for absolutely nothing disagrees.
niche value = no value.
and if enough of that kind of 'junk' gets listed under the current system that you can kit out for free, tell me what the point is of vastly increasing supply via some sort of automated system?

some folk love buying common salvage for 1inf and muling it to the vendor- that doesn't do much to change the dynamic of what it's 'worth'. Ditto for off-brand sets like confuse, slow, etc.


Quote:
I would like an option where if something hasn't sold for a week or so you get a button which lets you instantly Vendor it there and then though, just as a shortcut rather than taking it down and selling it manually or deleting it.
the market is a time sink.
I don't expect them to ever make it vastly more convenient for us.

Quote:
I put "trash" up for 5 inf a lot, and buy a fair bit in my early 20s too (at that stage I'm only looking to Frankenslot mostly so I don't have to buy SOs every 5 levels), I'd kinda like some way of encouraging that behaviour.
I don't bother listing junky recipes, but I do list all my salvage at 1. anything that doesn't sell by the next time I hit the market gets deleted.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post


I don't bother listing junky recipes, but I do list all my salvage at 1. anything that doesn't sell by the next time I hit the market gets deleted.
Unfortunately I don't have that much time to waste.

I'll just keep deleting anything that's trash.


Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
Unfortunately I don't have that much time to waste.
i see listing junk salvage like playing market roulette- mostly you lose, but sometimes you hit a big score and get a good laugh out of it.

in any case, it's entertaining enough that I keep doing it.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
i see listing junk salvage like playing market roulette- mostly you lose, but sometimes you hit a big score and get a good laugh out of it.

in any case, it's entertaining enough that I keep doing it.
Truly the only thing that matters when playing a game is being entertained. Now certainly the GMs/Devs need to make sure our entertainment doesn't come at real harm to another person but I cannot help but feel that they have capitulated to the too thin skinned where the markets are concerned and I fear they are going to cave even more in Positron's future market "fixes".


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

i'm going to go out on a really long limb and suggest everyone pull off their bids for things that aren't in game. move the infl/inf to other toons and sit back and wait. if the nerfs indicate the way the devs go, i see this being a huge problem for people with more then the infl/inf cap.

of course, if i got out farther on that limb, i would say they are going to seed the market but that would be a terrible idea.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint View Post
i'm going to go out on a really long limb and suggest everyone pull off their bids for things that aren't in game. move the infl/inf to other toons and sit back and wait. if the nerfs indicate the way the devs go, i see this being a huge problem for people with more then the infl/inf cap.

of course, if i got out farther on that limb, i would say they are going to seed the market but that would be a terrible idea.
I wish I could refute any of what you write but I cannot.


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

I usually just throw things I don't want onto someone nearby in the market and then run off before they can return it. Yay moral ambiguity!


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
...I cannot help but feel that they have capitulated to the too thin skinned where the markets are concerned and I fear they are going to cave even more in Positron's future market "fixes".
it's like they wanted the mini-game a market provides but didn't stop to consider the sort of behaviors a market enables...nay, encourages.


It's like hosting a political convention and being shocked, SHOCKED I SAY when ladies of the evening flock to the hotel lobby.


Wait, that isn't a very flattering analogy is it.... =/


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
Bind on AAARGH IT BURNS ?
How did I miss this awesome post?

if rep had meaning any more I'd hose you down with it!


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
it's like they wanted the mini-game a market provides but didn't stop to consider the sort of behaviors a market enables...nay, encourages.


It's like hosting a political convention and being shocked, SHOCKED I SAY when ladies of the evening flock to the hotel lobby.


Wait, that isn't a very flattering analogy is it.... =/
I confess I am always disappointed when those ladies consort with that type. I aways hold them in higher regard than that.


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
I confess I am always disappointed when those ladies consort with that type. I aways hold them in higher regard than that.
ROTFL.

After watching the idiocy spewed by a certain national committee chairmen over the weekend I'd have to agree.

I'd also agree that I too fear whatever it is the devs are coming up with for the market. They just never seemed to "get" that part of the game. Same with pvp.


Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
Unfortunately I don't have that much time to waste.

I'll just keep deleting anything that's trash.
By all of your replies, you are going to rail against anything that helps the "lower class."

Seems many are going to do this.

Seems many think that what I found Ideal to be completely a waste of time. Slot lvl 25 to 35 frakenslotting...forever...never going higher, because its cheap. The supply just isnt there, red side of course. The proposed fix would fix it, quickly.

But junk to you will get deleted...yeah thats thinking past your own nose...


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by fulmens View Post
micronian: Don't you hate it when other people do what they want instead of what you want?

it's all so very unfair!!11


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My City Was Gone

 

Posted

I don't know if this is the place to offer serious suggestions for improvements, but at the very least it seems to be attracting the crowd most likely to skeletonize bad suggestions in under a minute. The following comes from a position of profound ignorance and is probably wrong on several counts, but that's never stopped me yet.

So, from my worm's eye view, the problem is supply. Specifically, recipe supply. More specifically, supply of recipes in a few classes:
1) PvP recipes.
2) Sub-50 recipes.
3) Pool C/D recipes with high merit costs and low general utility.

And some suggestions for each of these:
1) Rewards for success don't bring people into PvP. People lured into trying PvP by rewards quickly discover that they have a long way to go - probably involving an entirely new, completely different, and highly expensive build, plus many hours of practice - before they have any chance at all for being rewarded for their time. That's not terribly encouraging. Now, once you get a certain critical mass of newbs PvPing, they start plinking each other, and then things stop being quite so lopsided - but you have to give them a reason to start. So, give PvP recipes a chance to drop when you are killed in PvP. Farmable? Not more than it currently is. Unfair to skilled PvPers? They get more targets and more chances for kill drops; what's not to like?
2) When purchasing or rolling for recipes with tickets or merits, let the player specify what level they want to be rolling as. Recipes will be generated at that level, or at max level if the max level for the recipe is below that level.
3) Reevaluate merit prices and drop pools. These were created when recipes were new and the devs had precious little idea what would be desirable. This is clearly no longer the case. When task forces only offered random rolls, the sheer volume of "trash" drops obscured the issue; merits brought the problem to the fore. Certain recipes simply do not appear on the market, so people save up to get them with merits instead of spending them on random rolls, so they're not generated as a side effect of random rolls, so they don't appear on the market, and so on and so forth. Needs looked at, for serious.

Or, I could be wrong.


@SPTrashcan
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint View Post
i'm going to go out on a really long limb and suggest everyone pull off their bids for things that aren't in game. move the infl/inf to other toons and sit back and wait. if the nerfs indicate the way the devs go, i see this being a huge problem for people with more then the infl/inf cap.
That's a very good point, I don't have much Inf stored that way (only 1 billion) but I think I'll shift it to other characters just to be on the safe side.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
1) Rewards for success don't bring people into PvP. People lured into trying PvP by rewards quickly discover that they have a long way to go - probably involving an entirely new, completely different, and highly expensive build, plus many hours of practice - before they have any chance at all for being rewarded for their time. That's not terribly encouraging. Now, once you get a certain critical mass of newbs PvPing, they start plinking each other, and then things stop being quite so lopsided - but you have to give them a reason to start. So, give PvP recipes a chance to drop when you are killed in PvP. Farmable? Not more than it currently is. Unfair to skilled PvPers? They get more targets and more chances for kill drops; what's not to like?
Personally I'd say give them a chance to drop from PvE combat in PvP zones. That does make them significantly more farmable than they are now, but it requires people to spend time in PvP zones in order to farm them. Having them drop when defeated in PvP just encourages Arena farming and doesn't encourage people to spend time in PvP zones looking for random PvP unless the drop rate is a heck of a lot higher than it is now. Personally I don't see any problems with being able to farm them, I think the devs main reason for the low drop rate was to limit farmability with low-risk farming (i.e. repeatedly killing someone who doesn't fight back). If you farm them doing PvPvE then you are at risk both from the PvE enemies and wondering Stalkers.

Quote:
2) When purchasing or rolling for recipes with tickets or merits, let the player specify what level they want to be rolling as. Recipes will be generated at that level, or at max level if the max level for the recipe is below that level.
This has been bought up a few times but yeah it's the simplest solution to encouraging sub-50 supply.

Quote:
3) Reevaluate merit prices and drop pools. These were created when recipes were new and the devs had precious little idea what would be desirable. This is clearly no longer the case. When task forces only offered random rolls, the sheer volume of "trash" drops obscured the issue; merits brought the problem to the fore. Certain recipes simply do not appear on the market, so people save up to get them with merits instead of spending them on random rolls, so they're not generated as a side effect of random rolls, so they don't appear on the market, and so on and so forth. Needs looked at, for serious.
I'm not convinced that this is needed. There are enough people doing random rolls to support the supply of odd recipes at max level. Similarly enough people go for the guaranteed Inf to support a low level market of the useful globals (BotZ and LotG in particular). The ones that are having a bit of a problem are ones like Basalisk's Gaze and Kinetic combat, popular sets that stop below 50. The problem here isn't the single recipe cost it's that not enough people do the lower level rolls.


 

Posted

Your suggestion 1) below is reasonable if the intent is to bring more people into PvP, but it has the unwanted (from the Devs) perspective of doubling the drop rate. An alternative that would keep the total rate the same would be to reduce the killer rate while increasing the killee rate. Of course the standard rule is that people will complain no matter what you do.

Suggestion 2) seems reasonable and many people have requested it before. I don't know why it hasn't been done. The problem really is switching to Merits which you can save up to roll at level 50.

Suggestion 3) depends on the intent. Perhaps you could add more detail. It seems the Devs are happy with the current earning rates. They did go and weight the drops a while ago, so the more desired things within a pool drop more often. It seems to favor things like attacks over controls for example. I started a thread to get some statistics by copying chars to the test server to roll a lot, but things died down then the test server went into Closed Beta.

If the intent of 3) is to make things like LotG: +7.5% and Healing uniques into Pool A uncommon drops, then the Devs aren't gonna go for that.


Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Personally I'd say give them a chance to drop from PvE combat in PvP zones.
I agree with all the reasons you gave to do this, but can also supply one overwhelming reason not to do it: it creates more PvP/PvE tension in zones. People already complain about being targeted while grabbing shivans, nukes, badges, or whatever in PvP zones, because with these systems, actively engaging in PvP brings them further from their goals instead of closer to them. If you want to encourage people to actually PvP instead of just farm in a PvP zone and complain about being attacked, you must set up a situation where engaging in a fight always brings you closer to a reward. Of course, the drop rate should be higher for kills than deaths, and of course the total drop rate should not increase: if the current drop rate is D, then the new kill drop rate is (2/3) * D and the new death drop rate is (1/3) * D. Then you have an incentive to engage, and an incentive to try to win, but no incentive to avoid combat.

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The problem here isn't the single recipe cost it's that not enough people do the lower level rolls.
I'll take your word on this. In which case, would it make sense to let you specify the level you're rolling at, but not the bracket you want to be rolling from, so that the lower level recipes are always a possibility?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TopDoc View Post
Suggestion 3) depends on the intent. Perhaps you could add more detail. It seems the Devs are happy with the current earning rates. They did go and weight the drops a while ago, so the more desired things within a pool drop more often. It seems to favor things like attacks over controls for example. [...]

If the intent of 3) is to make things like LotG: +7.5% and Healing uniques into Pool A uncommon drops, then the Devs aren't gonna go for that.
No, not at all. Instead, I'd like to see the merit prices for recipes with marginal utility greatly reduced, and perhaps some of them shifted into the more common pools. Things like debuff and mez sets - and particularly the lower level sets. Though as Adeon noted, the problem here may be more with the level bracket that rolls are happening at than the chance of the recipes themselves. Still, some merit costs seem highly disproportionate to the general utility of the recipe, and that could use looking at.


@SPTrashcan
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
I'll take your word on this. In which case, would it make sense to let you specify the level you're rolling at, but not the bracket you want to be rolling from, so that the lower level recipes are always a possibility?
I don't think that there is a technical solution for this other than eliminating merits entirely. It really comes down to knowledge. For someone who spends time studying the market and looks at the drop tables then it becomes obvious that making rolls in a lower bracket makes a lot of sense (although which lower bracket depends on who you ask). For someone who just wants to convert their merits into recipes (either for use or sale) so that they can get back to playing it isn't obvious, the level 45-50 bracket sounds like the logical choice because that way you get the high level recipes which sounds better.

The problem with specifying the level versus the bracket is that some people will want to roll level 50 recipes (since even with the introduction of a slider there will always be more demand for them) but in a lower bracket so that they can get some of the better ones there (like Kinetic Combat) so allowing us to specify level but not bracket could well end up decreasing the supply of those recipes.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
1) Rewards for success don't bring people into PvP.
I'll disagree with this one, mainly because I personally would absolutely PvP if it had a meaningful reward structure. But it doesn't, you either hit the jackpot or you get zilch. That feast or famine approach to rewards isn't going to attract new players, it just rewards the hardcore types who're already there.

Contrast with Purples, which are part of a reward ecosystem- salvage, inf, exp, inspirations.

If PvP had an analogous reward structure (pvp only salvage, pvp only inspirations, some alternative type of XP that advanced you on an alternate reward path), it would absolutely be worth it for 'casual' but interested players to dip their toes in now and again, even if they were mostly getting their rears handed to them by the experienced, kitted out regulars.

Note that this characterization does not include the vocal segment of our little community who scream bloody murder because they have to poke their timid heads into PvP zones for the occasional exploration badge. But I think a meaningful number of players would be open to 'dabbling' if the return on investment was more diverse and predictable.


r/e your proposed solution, games are generally loathe to reward failure.
Whether it would work to get people in zones or not, I can't see the devs going that route.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone