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I've yet to see a kinetic defender that was self capping his damage complain about their damage output. Considering they do about as much damage as a blaster at full defiance buff (~40%).|
Originally Posted by NeonPower
TBH this is probably pretty crappy news to all the kinetic defenders out there.
If you can easily reach the damage bonus cap then an added 30% isn't going to be much use is it.... |
edit: from rep
"and how often can you get them to full defiance?"
I could have just as well said a blaster using perma aim minus a tad, but it works out to be almost exactly a blaster with ~40% damage buff from defiance so I went with it. In other words, kin defs do pretty respectable damage, to the point that losing out on the new vigilance buff when in that state is a pretty small matter.
To answer the question though. Every single encounter... it's not particularly difficult to build up ~40% dam buff from defiance
Lets see:
Current inherent ability to help while solo: None
So that would mean... that ANYTHING they do will almost undoubtedly be better!
Yup, gonna love that.
Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
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amen !
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Originally Posted by _force_
lets see:
Current inherent ability to help while solo: None so that would mean... That anything they do will almost undoubtedly be better! Yup, gonna love that. |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I kinda liked the idea I heard earlier in the thread. The one about having less team mates means better damage and more team mates means better buffs.
0 Teammates: 35% Damage Buff, 0% Buff bufff
3-4 Teammates: 20-15% Damage Buff, 20-15% Buff Buff
7 Teammates: 0% Damage Buff, 35% Buff buff
Im sure the numbers would be off but that sounds kinda sounds awesome to me. Get a 5% trade off per member on the team. This way when your by yourself your damage is good enough to keep from going slow, when your in a mid sized team your can help with the pew pews and buffs and when your on a large team your buffs really shine! At least thats my wish :3 (Of course when I mean buff buff I mean buffs, debuffs, heals)
Dreaded Wail hits things freakin' hard.. i like to hit things freakin' hard... so.. id go Wail... SAVE THE WAILS!!!! - Solar_Lunata
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Personally iv never had issues killing anything solo on a Defender.However them adding damage while solo is just nacho cheese added to the broccolli.|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Well, isn't that what Defenders really need when it comes to soloing? They have OK control, and gobs of buffs/debuff; it's trying to actually kill things solo that makes it frustrating.
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I never have understood the down play of a Defenders damage as it is pre-i17.They always do plenty of damage for me.
Then again when you dont take half to 2/3 your Secondary Blast powers on a Defender, you feel like your weak.I dont have this problem.
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Well, more to the point: if you don't take a primary that helps your damage output much, then you have to hit an even-con minion 5-6 times before they'll go down. The tier 1 blasts barely seem to do any damage at ALL. Heck, hitting Aim and a SNIPE isn't enough to kill some minions!
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Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Personally iv never had issues killing anything solo on a Defender.However them adding damage while solo is just nacho cheese added to the broccolli.
I never have understood the down play of a Defenders damage as it is pre-i17.They always do plenty of damage for me. Then again when you dont take half to 2/3 your Secondary Blast powers on a Defender, you feel like your weak.I dont have this problem. |
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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This is it exactly. If you play Rad, Dark, Storm etc... that all have ways to increase your damage, its probably still slow, but not painfully slow. Try ForceFields or Empathy and then try a +3 Boss. Its Reeaaaallllllyyy Sloooooowwww. Thats why My Empath pretty much had Bosses turned off the whole way to 50.|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Well, more to the point: if you don't take a primary that helps your damage output much, then you have to hit an even-con minion 5-6 times before they'll go down. The tier 1 blasts barely seem to do any damage at ALL. Heck, hitting Aim and a SNIPE isn't enough to kill some minions!
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Will my Empath still solo worse than a Rad/Sonic? Heck Yeah. But having been on test recently and running some radio missions in Peregrine, I am pleased with the boost. I still have all my same weaknesses and strengths, it just takes alot less time to do missions. Still testing how hard I can bump the settings with Bosses turned on, but at least it will not be "base settings" on a fully IOed Empath.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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How many mobs does a kin defender need for Fulcrum Shift to get them to the cap?|
Originally Posted by NeonPower
TBH this is probably pretty crappy news to all the kinetic defenders out there.
If you can easily reach the damage bonus cap then an added 30% isn't going to be much use is it.... |
Edit: Actually, I got over my lazy butt and googled out the cap for defenders. It's 400% apparently. base + enhancements is 200%, so 200% more is needed. This is 7 mobs (50% + 6*25%). This means that I must defeat 7 mobs within 45 seconds or else I will drop below the cap at the next application. I must admit I've never checked to see if I can do that...nukes don't count.
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
Over 9000!!!!!!!
I didn't read this whole thread (11 pages by the time I started). Does this damage buff replace the current Vigilance, or is it in addition to it? If "in addition to," then perfect. If it replaces, then does that leave Defenders without an operating inherent on a full team?
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It is in addition to it. The idea is in effect that Vigilance gives a damage boost solo or on small teams, and a Endurance discount on large teams. |
Originally Posted by Dagmo
I didn't read this whole thread (11 pages by the time I started). Does this damage buff replace the current Vigilance, or is it in addition to it? If "in addition to," then perfect. If it replaces, then does that leave Defenders without an operating inherent on a full team?
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The mechanism of the End discount hasn't changed, which is still a shame in some ways, but the change does not take away anything.
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That's the way I'd explain it. Vigilance means you're holding something back so you have it ready the moment a teammate needs it. That explains both the lower End cost and the lower damage. |
Originally Posted by Straightman
Maybe you do less damage because you're vigilant.
 The more teammates you have to keep an eye on, the more distracted you are & the less damage you do. |
You are LESS vigilant when you're solo, because the only one you have to look after is yourself.
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Thanks! This makes me very happy. The end discount has made Stamina-less builds viable (though running Dispersion Bubble plus all three Leadership toggles is more than challenging). However, nigh infinite Endurance has been the defining benefit of my Defenders over my Controllers. |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
It is in addition to it. The idea is in effect that Vigilance gives a damage boost solo or on small teams, and a Endurance discount on large teams.
The mechanism of the End discount hasn't changed, which is still a shame in some ways, but the change does not take away anything. |
Soloing, the change could have a significant positive impact. After i17, I want to go back and take out those same three gray Freaks that took me about a year on my FF/Ice Def and see the diff. Maybe I'll load up the test server and take a first-hand look...
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Technically, there is a change to how Vigilance works with the end discount. Currently, Vigilance counts pets, Dark Servant, Acid Mortar, teammate's pets, etc. This little loophole is closed once I17 comes out.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
It is in addition to it. The idea is in effect that Vigilance gives a damage boost solo or on small teams, and a Endurance discount on large teams.
The mechanism of the End discount hasn't changed, which is still a shame in some ways, but the change does not take away anything. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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True. Nothing is taken away if you are not Dark/ or Traps/ then. (Unless the psuedo-pets were counted, such as Oil Slick and Lighting Storm, but somehow I doubt that. I also would make the guess that VS didn't count) |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Technically, there is a change to how Vigilance works with the end discount. Currently, Vigilance counts pets, Dark Servant, Acid Mortar, teammates pets, etc. This little loophole is closed once I17 comes out.
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I would say that even with Traps there is a benefit, as Acid Mortar is not a 100% of the time damage boost. Unfortunately, I'm guessing the Inherent won't apply to the mines. (or any other psuedo-pets)
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Unless you team. Teaming with a Plant controller got pretty you some crazy end discounts, IIRC.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
True. Nothing is taken away if you are not Dark/ or Traps/ then.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
What effect is this going to have on damage output potential of a defender versus corruptor?
If we use the damage scalar as any kind of indication, Defenders sit at 0.65 ranged with Corruptors at 0.75 ranged. Unless I'm off on my math here, I would imagine this would indicate a 10% difference in damage in general between the two ATs. If that's the case, the extra 20% a level 20+ solo defender would reap would be quite significant when comparing damage.
This would only leave the bursty, random, overkill mechanic of scourge to even out the numbers.
As long as the defender stays solo, or even if the defender takes on 1 or 2 team mates, they can still match or beat the corruptor's damage before calculating scourge strikes. Now weigh this against the buff modifiers both ATs receive and the defender looks like a clear winner.
Not that I disparage the defender AT it's buff, far from it, they certainly have had it coming for quite some time, I just wonder where this leaves corruptors now.
From what I can see, its about on par with the amount that Scourge benefits a corruptor, but unlike scourge, a Defender loses this benefit as soon as he joins a team and gets the benefit of the old vigilance instead.
Post SO
NEW ( 1.3 x 0.65 ) + ( 0.95 x 0.65 ) = 1.46
OLD ( 1.0 x 0.65 ) + ( 0.95 x 0.65 ) = 1.27
16% improvement in damage output
That's assuming my math is correct.
Also its worth noting that pre-SO Defenders could see a sizable boost in soloing ability, which is definitely something they needed.
23% (assuming 1 DO ACC + 2 DO DMG)
30% (assuming TOs with ACC only in attacks)
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Idle thought, how much impact does this have to defender damage before enhancement? Ie, before level 22, is the defender outperforming the corruptor?
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It scales with level to 20, so no, you won't be a level 1 Defender with a 30% damage bonus. |
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Idle thought, how much impact does this have to defender damage before enhancement? Ie, before level 22, is the defender outperforming the corruptor?
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Corruptors do get Scourge from level 1, but then they do greater damage in proportion to their foes' HP, and thus there is more potential for Scourge to be wasted. I'd say it likely comes out even.
I like the comparison that solo, a Defender will do about the same damage as a Corruptor, and on a team, he'll lose some of that bonus for a small team, and all of it on a large one. The Defender is still slightly lower, but then as previous comparisons between Defenders and Corruptors show, the higher the Defender's offensive buff, the closer he comes to a Corruptor anyway. So for Offenders, they would likely exceed the Corruptor by a small amount, while defensive builds would trail a little behind.
While Scourge has a lot of potential to be wasted on minions/lts, on Bosses and up it's great.
If you run a lot of TFs, the Scourge damage on all the AVs and GMs is phenomenal.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
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Starsman ran some numbers on it and he concluded that, when solo, defenders and corruptors are pretty even when it comes to damage output. Which is better than the other will depend on specific powersets, since -resistance will favor the defender's greater debuff values while +damage will favor the corruptor as they have higher base values.
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Originally Posted by Foundsavant
What effect is this going to have on damage output potential of a defender versus corruptor?
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Keep in mind that defender damage buffs are also stronger even if they are working of a lower base. I don't recall really noting that they were better for corruptors although think some one else did a rudimentary math to say they almost netted the same.|
Originally Posted by Garent
Starsman ran some numbers on it and he concluded that, when solo, defenders and corruptors are pretty even when it comes to damage output. Which is better than the other will depend on specific powersets, since -resistance will favor the defender's greater debuff values while +damage will favor the corruptor as they have higher base values.
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IO damage buffs will indeed take the corruptor further, as will other member's buffs (provided they are identical.)
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You didn't. Someone (I thought it was you) ran the numbers on builds using AM and assault, though I can't remember the exact results. I'm pretty sure it was in the closed beta boards too. Hmm.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
I don't recall really noting that they were better for corruptors although think some one else did a rudimentary math to say they almost netted the same.
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basic blast - 36.1 damage on defender, 41.7 on corruptor
AM - 25% for defender, 20% on corruptor
assault - 18.8% for defender, 15% on corruptor
defenders gets an extra 30%, corruptor gets scourge
36.1 X (1.95 + 0.3) = 81.2
41.7 X (1.95) = 81.3
This shows that defenders and corruptors do almost the exact same amount of base damage with full damage slotting, with the corruptor having the advantage of scourge
36.1 X (1.95 + 0.25 + 0.188 + 0.3) = 97
41.7 X (1.95 + 0.2 + 0.15) = 95.9
It looks like I need to change my previous statement. Self damage buffs don't favor either one of them; in fact, they still come out being almost exactly the same ignoring scourge.
It'll be nice to see this happen. My very first toon is a defender and I could not solo at all unless I was willing to spend massive amounts of time on a single mission. Still Defenders have a special place in my heart and I am glad to see them getting more quality love here.