i already started with the dual builds on my def, because as empathy, if you skip powers, then you are kinda gimp on a team. So far, the second build is dumping almost all the buff other powers, unless i absolutely have to take one to keep leveling up. Def attacks are really not very strong anyway, so the more i have, i figure the better my chances. I am not even being picky about what attacks i am taking, i am taking them all lol.
I hope this change works with that concept. I could handle a part time buffer, and a part time toon (that doesn't tickle the enemies to death) that would be great.
Looking forward to what ever it is, if it helps solo.
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Personally I think it'll be pretty balanced solo. I know that I always get a lot of usage from Scourge when soloing my Corruptor. The way I see it both Defenders and Corruptors will deal the same damage solo but Corruptors will always get Scourge while Defenders get better buffs/debuff which may or may not be useful.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Slightly more, if the mob is in Scourge range and Scourge isn't simply behaving as overkill (that is, the attack would've killed the mob without the extra damage). Or, in other words, most of the time you attack while solo a Defender will do more damage; all of the time if you're playing Sonic Blast. On top of that, you'll have higher (self-)buff numbers, stronger debuffs, and longer-lasting mezzes all the time, including on a team when individual damage is less important than the higher degree of force multiplication.
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That being said I do see where you're coming from. With Going Rogue the primary reason to roll a Corruptor over a Defender is that Corruptors solo a lot more easily. Defenders have always been superior on teams. I think Defenders do need a boost solo but maybe Corruptors should get a team boost to compensate.
Personally I've never liked the idea that being useful on a team has to mean that you suck solo (in any game) but that's an old argument.
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As far as single target attacks, you may be right, but scourge comes into play with DoT powers (rain of fire, full auto) that have a chance to scourge each time which is vastly helpful on a mob to mob basis as well as AV/GM fights. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
I'm also curious how any changes would affect the current Vigilance, which I still get a lot of use out of on my Empath and Kinetic (not so much on the Cold), according to the global endurance discount monitoring that I put up on all of my Defenders. It's not like the inherent they have now does nothing, just like it's not like Scourge doesn't do anything. But I think the amount that Scourge helps is drastically overstated, barring fights with mobs at AV-level hit points or more, and similarly everyone understates the effect of Vigilance.
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furthermore, i don't think vigilance is understated because everyone is going to slot for end redux/recovery in the first place, or doesn't need it due to transference, RA, heatloss or what have you, and most of the End redux that vigilance does give, when it does, goes to waste.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
I think there's plenty of clever ways they could go with it. Something like the current Blaster Defiance would be neat. Rather than sliding damage to endurance reduction, it could be health regeneration or defenses.
Really though, what would break the bank... If when solo'd all the click team buffs became self toggles. Haha!
If they wanted to get super fancy, a hireling system might be fun. They could do some sub-mastermind work when they solo, so they have someone to buff/heal, and then the hireling would decide it's better off alone when other PCs join the team.
I'm not saying any of this is realistic or to be expected, I'm just saying there's a lot more creative things they could be cooking up.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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I think he got scared off.|
Originally Posted by Garent
Someone call Ultimo!
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Otherwise, if defenders really get a damage buff while solo, it means, IME, that I won't be so tempted to dual-box with a corpse.
This will make my offenders even more crazy!
Rad, Traps, Cold and Dark?! Wonderful news.
Fury
On scourge: I divide fights into two parts mentally. (This may not be a particularly useful or relevant paradigm for other people, but here it is.) The first part is where all the minions go away, and the second part is where you finish off all the management. Scourge doesn't help much with the first part, but makes the second part of fights go dramatically faster in my experience.
And the fight's not over until one side is ENTIRELY dead. So Scourge is very useful for me. Also Scourge scales up very well with enemy toughness- it's there more for the hard fights.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
If you're fire or cold blast then scourge is a huge help with defeating minions. Some powersets take advantage of scourge MUCH better than others.
I'm not sure why it matters whether a solo Defender is better than a solo Corruptor. This is an MMO... Corruptors move right ahead of them the second a single teammate is added. Maybe, I don't know, haven't been invited to a closed beta since I13.
I mean, have we all forgotten that Tankers have higher base damage, higher base defense/resist numbers, and better aggro management capability than Brutes, but Tankers are still the ones people are claiming will be made useless by blueside Brutes? And why? Because Fury is more fun than Gauntlet. And maybe for some people, Scourge is more fun than Vigilance 2.0.
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Agreed, except for the bit about Corruptors being better on teams, Defenders add more to their teammates than Corruptors and even if it isn't as noticeable it does add up. It's less noticeable with things like Heals where Defenders are only about 15% better but with the really good buffs like -res and +defense Defenders are about 30% better which does make a substantial (if hard to see) difference.|
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
I'm not sure why it matters whether a solo Defender is better than a solo Corruptor. This is an MMO... Corruptors move right ahead of them the second a single teammate is added. Maybe, I don't know, haven't been invited to a closed beta since I13.
I mean, have we all forgotten that Tankers have higher base damage, higher base defense/resist numbers, and better aggro management capability than Brutes, but Tankers are still the ones people are claiming will be made useless by blueside Brutes? And why? Because Fury is more fun than Gauntlet. And maybe for some people, Scourge is more fun than Vigilance 2.0. |
I agree with the second bit though. My concern with Defenders and Going Rogue was not that Corruptors would render Defenders obsolete but that people wouldn't bother to roll Defenders. Corruptors are good both on teams and solo. Defenders are better on teams but not by a huge amount and are frustrating to solo unless you pick from the small selection of sets that solo well. Given that the only personal reason to roll a Defender is if you want FF, Emp or Psi. Corruptors solo better and your teammates won't notice the difference.
Well, I didn't mean Corruptors were better on teams overall, I meant their damage would be better.
Ah, that makes more sense 
I have to imagine that the developers realized that GR would make Defenders less attractive to a large portion of the player base. Yes, Defenders are better on teams, but not so much so that far too many people would rather roll a toon that can actually be self sufficient.
Kudo's to them for realizing this.
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who says they did?
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Originally Posted by Torrynt
I have to imagine that the developers realized that GR would make Defenders less attractive to a large portion of the player base. Yes, Defenders are better on teams, but not so much so that far too many people would rather roll a toon that can actually be self sufficient.
Kudo's to them for realizing this. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
If defenders are going to be made as soloable as corrupters I do wonder if tankers are going to be made buffable to the damage levels that brutes can be. I won't be holding my breath but it is possible to buff a brute to do virtually everything a tank does and more. I use virtually but really the difference can be unnoticeable and more because Brutes will contribute more damage for the team.
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[QUOTE=Westley;2732404]I suspect an inherent damage increase when solo to boost us to pre-Defiant Blaster damage... and when we're teamed will enhance all of our buff/debuff numbers somehow.[/QUOT
I agree here. I had the same thought about tankers. Damage buff while solo but scales down as team members are added. In turn, Def numbers would be discounted solo while scaling up as team members are added.
I am very excited about a rework of Vigilance, but am in the "wait and see" mode for certain. A lot of what is being said is complete speculation, so again, we dont have enough info to even worry about it yet.
I have noticed alot of folks seem to have it in their mind that the damage boost will somehow scale down once you get in a group. Honestly, that would be really sad if that turns out to be true. Scaling anything by group size would just be another form of the current vigilance.
My hope is that they simply raise the defender DMG MOD to close to Tanker dmg base
...AND raise Corruptor DMG MOD to keep them ahead of us and behind Blasters.
That would take care of the Solo issues most of us have.
Then maybe have a scaling global Recharge boost based on number of team-mates, with a full team of 8 granting about 1 SO of recharge. So maybe 5% per added team-member. There would be no need to reduce the damage output, because simply joining a team and using your primary powers will reduce the overall time you can spend blasting. In essence, your DPS will suffer simply by doing your duty for the team.
Global recharge fits the spirit of "Vigilance" and doesnt reward the defender for poor team play.
Whatever it (Vigilance 2.0) turns out to be, I know it will make me happy.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Anything that dynamically changes base damage seems highly unlikely. There is only one example of this in the game so far, and that's when a Kheldian changes forms. It's not especially dynamic in the sense of varying with team size - the two Kheldian energy forms just use different AT damage scales than the human form and from one another.
So far, we have no example of a buff that modifies base values for either an AT or a power. Based on that, I would be surprised to see it introduced here.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
My guess would be "Vigilance while teamed", "extra green damage SO in secondary powers while solo".
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Agreed, but a scalable damage buff would work.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
So far, we have no example of a buff that modifies base values for either an AT or a power. Based on that, I would be surprised to see it introduced here.
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Also, increased base damage while solo would give a magnified boost to sets with +damage which would be further magnified if you mix in -resistance.
Essentially, you'd be giving a far bigger buff to sets that already solo well than you would to sets that do not.
I think that's the rub with something as simple as "increase defender damage" -- it works out better for the strong offensive sets than it does for problematic ones like FF.
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Yeah, That has always been something I believed as well.|
Originally Posted by BurningChick
Also, increased base damage while solo would give a magnified boost to sets with +damage which would be further magnified if you mix in -resistance.
Essentially, you'd be giving a far bigger buff to sets that already solo well than you would to sets that do not. I think that's the rub with something as simple as "increase defender damage" -- it works out better for the strong offensive sets than it does for problematic ones like FF. |
Thats why my personal opinion is for a powerset-by-powerset review to bring everyone in line and make the "bad" soloers not suck so much. But, if that is not forthcoming, then I would be OK with a general boost, even if it also made the more "solo-friendly" Defenders better.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Personally I think something that would be more likely to come up or just more useful when soloing rather than something that automatically kicks in when not on a team would be better. Like say, a damage or recharge buff dependent on your health like old Defiance.
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Heck no. Defiance was changed for a good reason, I really don't see ti being better for Defenders than it was for Blasters.
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Originally Posted by RED1015
Personally I think something that would be more likely to come up or just more useful when soloing rather than something that automatically kicks in when not on a team would be better. Like say, a damage or recharge buff dependent on your health like old Defiance.
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When does the amount of personal damage (which will be higher for Defenders after the change) matter? Mostly when you're soloing, since you'd be the only one doing it - on a team you have others dealing damage as well, there's generally more overkill, and you have other ATs that deal far better damage. The increased force multiplication more than makes up for the weaker individual performance.
I had a suggestion a while back in another "buff Defender" thread about how instead of adding damage, increase a Defender's damage per endurance (which was the biggest complaint in that thread - running out of end before being able to kill something, not really the speed of the kill) by basing the Vigilance buff on the Defender's current endurance - when they need the endurance the most, they get the largest discount. That way it would reward them for actually doing something instead of not doing something, and defense buff sets such as FF or Cold could see much greater utility out of the inherent.
I'm also curious how any changes would affect the current Vigilance, which I still get a lot of use out of on my Empath and Kinetic (not so much on the Cold), according to the global endurance discount monitoring that I put up on all of my Defenders. It's not like the inherent they have now does nothing, just like it's not like Scourge doesn't do anything. But I think the amount that Scourge helps is drastically overstated, barring fights with mobs at AV-level hit points or more, and similarly everyone understates the effect of Vigilance.