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I do not understand how people reconcile these two positions, which seem so contrary to me. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Not only are their buffs/debuffs extremely large, but they also all stack with one another. Due to this, Defenders (and pretty much all buff/debuff ATs) over perform on teams. The mitigation and damage boosts they provide can completely outstrip what others can do. It doesn't take a team of 8 Defenders to trivialize content - that can be done with less. For example, with just two Cold Defenders, you get:
1) Soft capped defense for 6/8 memebers of the team. 2) +MaxHP buffs for 4/8 memebers of the team without slotting 3) Res to F/C/E and recharge debuffs 4) Significant recharge, damage, regen, and resistance debuffs along with knockdowns 5) Endurance recovery 6) -Special debuff <snip> Having said all that, I do understand where the desire to have stronger attacks - when I first started playing, I thought Defenders would have attacks stronger than they had. However, given the current potency of Defender primaries, I don't think it would be a good idea. I think Corruptors have a better balance between offense and defense. They tend to solo better, don't multiply quite as much, but are still very useful on teams. Outside of diminishing returns on buffs/debuffs (which I don't want to see added) or reducing their strength, I don't see any universal increase to base damage to be wise. |
Two defenders will currently buff an 8-man team, where the defenders have a 0.65 damage mod, two tankers have 0.8, two scrappers have 1.125, a blaster has 1.125/1, and a controller has 0.55.
Somehow you think moving the defender damage mod from 0.65 to 0.8 is going to have a large impact on that teams performance? I think it will have a large impact on player perceptions of defenders. I think it will make players feel more useful on defenders. I do not think it will have a measurable impact on speed through missions on large teams and will have a measurable impact on speed through missions on small-mid-size teams and solo (which I think is a good goal).
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
The second problem is the variability of their performance. The Defender primaries vary wildly compared to all other ATs. While the performance between Spines and Dark Melee is pretty wide, it doesn't hold a candle to trying to compare FF and Kin. Suppose the devs want Defenders to perform at X plus or minus 10; so between X-10 and X+10. If ther difference between the top performing and bottom performing Defender is 18, then there isn't a lot of wiggle room. (The ideal in that case would be X-9 and X+9.)
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Intra-AT balance is not my concern here. Even inter-AT balance is not my primary concern, power wise. I only consider inter-AT balance because I want to make sure that whatever change I suggest for defenders and corruptors still keeps the other ATs as desirable choices.
There is a huge amount of room to boost defender damage without pushing them into too high territory. Despite that, I am not recommending we use all of that room, I merely suggest we put them in the bottom tier of damage, instead of buried. I think a HP increase would give them a different flavor from corruptors while supporting the defender concept of protecting the team and not being fragile.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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It's the notion that force multiplying archetypes already trivialize the team role of others to such an extent that the only reason to not play one is due to soloability (except for those that can even solo GMs) and playstyle preference. | Somehow you think moving the defender damage mod from 0.65 to 0.8 is going to have a large impact on that teams performance? |
You want to magnify this divide and demean the intentions of those that disagree with your preferred methods. To that I say boo, and look forward to you realizing that defenders will never have tanker damage mods while they can also multiply that damage 2x~4x with a liberal application of certain (de)buffs.
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| I want to make sure that whatever change I suggest for defenders and corruptors still keeps the other ATs as desirable choices |
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Looks like you found a Mids bug.
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Originally Posted by Dersk
when did defenders get a 500% damage cap?
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If that's all they have going for balance, then the ship has already sailed on any hope for it. Even theoretically, that's an incredibly bad idea.
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Originally Posted by Dersk
It's the notion that force multiplying archetypes already trivialize the team role of others to such an extent that the only reason to not play one is due to soloability
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Is that where you got the damage figures? Sorry, I don't use planners.
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Originally Posted by Garent
Looks like you found a Mids bug.
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It seems you and I agree much more than we disagree. This solution makes so much sense to me and always has, but there have been so many reasons thrown at me for why this will simply not happen. Game engine issue being the top offender.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I don't think it would ruin everything, however I don't see an easy way to do it. There was a suggestion a few pages back about allowing defenders to use ally buffs on themselves. Some variation on that is probably the only practical way to change things so that all Defenders get equal usage from their primary but the standard code rant applies as to why it's unlikely to be implemented as a solution.
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The silliest argument given to me was that Forcefield defenders would trivialize SR scrappers if they could get those "2" additional buffs. Okay, so FF has fewer hps, less status protection and CONSIDERABLY less DPS and no way to raise their own damage.
I think Scrappers would still get played if this were a choice available in the game.
The fact that many Defenders get to take advangtage of their own primaries while solo, while some select "special" sets get the "short shaft" is just something I would like to see changed, but am not expecting to see it happen after all this time.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
If Defenders are just fine on teams then there is no need to raise their base damage, adding something that raises damage when solo would be sufficient.
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BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I do not think defenders or corruptors currently trivialize the other AT's team roles. I do not believe they would trivialize the other ATs team roles with my suggested increased damage and HPs.|
Originally Posted by Dersk
It's the notion that force multiplying archetypes already trivialize the team role of others to such an extent that the only reason to not play one is due to soloability (except for those that can even solo GMs) and playstyle preference.
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Originally Posted by Dersk
You want to magnify this divide and demean the intentions of those that disagree with your preferred methods. To that I say boo, and look forward to you realizing that defenders will never have tanker damage mods while they can also multiply that damage 2x~4x with a liberal application of certain (de)buffs.
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What divide am I attempting to magnify? If your intentions are to keep defender damage as low as possible simply because you feel they would become some type of Optimal/Preferred AT with a 0.8 damage mod, then yes, I demean those intentions. Since I believe you are wrong, it would be hypocritical of me to be supportive of your viewpoint. I do not intend to offend or demean you, just your beliefs in this matter.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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You don't? What game have YOU been playing? Having half your team be Defenders/Controllers/Corruptors turns a 'balanced team dynamic' into a clusterf*** steamroll that removes all skill from the game and makes it nothing more than a festival for facerolling. With A few defenders on the team, your team can reach softcapped defense (no matter how much Inf the tank had to waste getting there on his own, at which point he will realize that spending it all was a waste when he could have a FF or Cold defender), the enemies damage can be floored, your team can get to their Max damage bonus, your team can never run out of endurance, mobs can't fight back, bosses hit like squeaky toys, MUST I continue? |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I do not think defenders or corruptors currently trivialize the other AT's team roles. I do not believe they would trivialize the other ATs team roles with my suggested increased damage and HPs.
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To be frank, you really don't seem to be taking this into perspective. Increasing defender damage will make it completely pointless to play any other class, period. If I could do Tanker level damage on my Kin/Psy, then my damage would be exponentially larger due to my higher base damage (granted I don't notice the lacking damage on my Kin/Psy thanks to my primary, oh haha we're back on that topic, but that discussion is for another time). Bonus HP would just make it easier for Defenders to Solo AVs and entire TFs just because they would survive longer (they already don't die, keeping them at a lower HP gives them a chance of dying in a mission, albeit slim).
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
In the time it takes to liberally apply those (de)buffs the blaster and/or scrapper has already killed two other spawns. Debuffs do not just happen without animation time or without cutting into attack time (Sonic Blast, of course, is the exception, but applying those debuffs in an AoE happens at a much lower level than 2x damage). Or are we talking about AVs and GMs? Once again I ask, why is it alright for defenders to increase blaster and brute and tanker damage 2x~4x, but it would be way over the top if defenders had the lowest damage in the game (tied with tankers) instead of the lowest damage in the game.
What divide am I attempting to magnify? If your intentions are to keep defender damage as low as possible simply because you feel they would become some type of Optimal/Preferred AT with a 0.8 damage mod, then yes, I demean those intentions. Since I believe you are wrong, it would be hypocritical of me to be supportive of your viewpoint. I do not intend to offend or demean you, just your beliefs in this matter. |
Defenders can just floor everything and change the tide of battle with the push of a button.
Defenders don't need a buff.
@Mazzo Grave
Webmaster Grave, Virtueverse!
Energy/Energy Blaster Guide
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
you *******!!!!
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What !?! Are we playing the same game ? My Defenders have to work ! Hard ! to keep your sorry butt from landing in the hospital. And for that effort I get to look at crappy soloing as the trade-off ? Maybe I should play a DPSer so I can be the poor AT with only one job. hehe.|
Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
... Defenders control half the fight on their own. If you havent noticed, the strength of buffs you cast on your allies are VERY strong, as are the debuffs you can apply. The ONLY way to balance that is to increase damage of the classes that are actually supposed to deal damage...
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Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
...Tankers are an exception, but not by much, their damage wouldn't get buffed again considering threat is a complete myth in this game and aggro is just based on how fast you can spam taunt.Defenders can just floor everything and change the tide of battle with the push of a button...
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How does that play into your theory?
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Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
Defenders don't need a buff. |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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This one.|
Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
You don't? What game have YOU been playing?
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And this one:
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Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
To be frank, you really don't seem to be taking this into perspective. Increasing defender damage will make it completely pointless to play any other class, period.
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Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
If I could do Tanker level damage on my Kin/Psy, then my damage would be exponentially larger due to my higher base damage (granted I don't notice the lacking damage on my Kin/Psy thanks to my primary, oh haha we're back on that topic, but that discussion is for another time).
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Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
Bonus HP would just make it easier for Defenders to Solo AVs and entire TFs just because they would survive longer (they already don't die, keeping them at a lower HP gives them a chance of dying in a mission, albeit slim).
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Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
Why is it OK to increase DPSer damage? Because it's their ONLY JOB. Defenders control half the fight on their own. If you havent noticed, the strength of buffs you cast on your allies are VERY strong, as are the debuffs you can apply. The ONLY way to balance that is to increase damage of the classes that are actually supposed to deal damage. Blasters for instance can ONLY deal damage, they have no other option. Tankers are an exception, but not by much, their damage wouldn't get buffed again considering threat is a complete myth in this game and aggro is just based on how fast you can spam taunt. Brutes get their damage buffed because with an empty fury bar, they deal approx tanker damage (slightly more I think) and it isn't until they've been in a fight for a while that they can really start hurting people. Ever see a brute throw himself into the next group like an idiot? Fury bar. Their entire level of performance is based on throwing themselves in harms way and acting stupid, and without a damage buff they wouldn't kill things fast enough to survive the impending onslaught.
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I agree that we do not want to stomp all over blaster, scrapper, brute, dominator, and stalker toes. I believe there is plenty of room to increase defender (and corruptor) damage while still keeping the high damage ATs viable, fun, and worthwhile to teams.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Having A team makes most content into a festival for facerolling. I don't need a defender to do that. It certainly helps, but then again so does a blaster/troller/tanker/scrapper/etc. A team of good players makes content trival.|
Originally Posted by Black_Marrow
You don't? What game have YOU been playing? Having half your team be Defenders/Controllers/Corruptors turns a 'balanced team dynamic' into a clusterf*** steamroll that removes all skill from the game and makes it nothing more than a festival for facerolling.
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| With A few defenders on the team, your team can reach softcapped defense (no matter how much Inf the tank had to waste getting there on his own, at which point he will realize that spending it all was a waste when he could have a FF or Cold defender), the enemies damage can be floored, your team can get to their Max damage bonus, your team can never run out of endurance, mobs can't fight back, bosses hit like squeaky toys, MUST I continue? |
Or I can get a tanker or two who can handle the damage so I can pound people into sand while safe.
Or I can get a blaster/scrapper and likely kill things faster than they can kill me.
So yes, Defenders are good. However, they are not so unbalancing that teams without them are neutered. Nope, most of the time PUGs run without a defender and do just fine... one could even say facerolling content. Why don't they have a defender? Because for many people, it's a painful, slow, character to play. It doesn't completely live up to it's roll (secondary offense) and is reduced to being a support class in a game about superheroes.
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| To be frank, you really don't seem to be taking this into perspective. Increasing defender damage will make it completely pointless to play any other class, period. |
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| If I could do Tanker level damage on my Kin/Psy, then my damage would be exponentially larger due to my higher base damage (granted I don't notice the lacking damage on my Kin/Psy thanks to my primary, oh haha we're back on that topic, but that discussion is for another time). |
When you are on a team, those people are going to be doing just as good as they were before as long as you keep using your primary. However, you get the satisfaction of a 15% damage bump for the times that you do want to actually try to kill a minion.
Because, what is a Defender to a team that is already doing well? A very very bad blaster. The irony of all of this is that when a team can wipe a spawn quickly, your buffs/debuffs are in general useless. At L50, that happens a fair bit. Blasters can alpha for tons. Tanks can survive a huge beating. Trollers can lock down entire spawns. If the team is wiping mobs, then you should be concentrating more on damage than -DEF, -RECH, -TO HIT. It's when things get rough that Defenders do well. It would be nice to do at least average when things aren't rough.
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| Bonus HP would just make it easier for Defenders to Solo AVs and entire TFs just because they would survive longer (they already don't die, keeping them at a lower HP gives them a chance of dying in a mission, albeit slim). |
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Torrynt gets it ! Well Said |
Originally Posted by Torrynt
So yes, Defenders are good. However, they are not so unbalancing that teams without them are neutered. Nope, most of the time PUGs run without a defender and do just fine... one could even say facerolling content. Why don't they have a defender? Because for many people, it's a painful, slow, character to play. It doesn't completely live up to it's role (secondary offense) and is reduced to being a support class in a game about superheroes.
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BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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If I need more damage, I can get a blaster or scrapper, or for a full team better yet to get a controller or defender...| I do not think defenders or corruptors currently trivialize the other AT's team roles |
If I need better survivability in my team I can get a tanker or perhaps a kheld, or better yet I can get a controller or defender...
If we can't hit through these tohit debuffs we can get a tanker to play punching bag while blasters shoot from range, or better yet get a controller or defender...
If we can't overcome this AVs regen when his damage resistance increases we... well, we're a full team already, so maybe we should kick someone and get a controller or defender...
Unless the team just picks up anyone that's available, the best choice isn't what archetype to get, it's which type of defender or controller to get. That only stops being true when the team is so horribly overpowered compared to the content that there's nothing more than can possibly be gained, so we might as well get a blaster that won't try to stop the team so he can buff everyone that doesn't need it.
However, if you actually invite tankers instead of forcefield defenders, or invite scrappers instead of radiation emissions controllers...
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
In the time it takes to liberally apply those (de)buffs the blaster and/or scrapper has already killed two other spawns.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
why is it alright for defenders to increase blaster and brute and tanker damage 2x~4x
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
but it would be way over the top if defenders had the lowest damage in the game (tied with tankers)
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- Not all defenders with 0.8 damage mod would be tied with tankers, nor would they have the lowest damage. Aside from soloing empaths and forcefielders, defenders would be well ahead offensively.
- I do not think defenders should have the lowest damage.
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| What divide am I attempting to magnify? |
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I would say that I have not found this. I can't recall a PUG that didn't roll over every mission after a brief recognition of who had what powers. When you get past the 30s I haven't been on may PUGs that can't roll right along on +3/+4.| Unless the team just picks up anyone that's available, the best choice isn't what archetype to get, it's which type of defender or controller to get. That only stops being true when the team is so horribly overpowered compared to the content that there's nothing more than can possibly be gained, so we might as well get a blaster that won't try to stop the team so he can buff everyone that doesn't need it. |
Again, defenders are one of the least played classes. There are plenty of PUGs and constructed teams that do just fine without them. They add survivability with a Tank/Scrapper, Damage with Blaster/Scrapper and mitigation with a Troller. You don't need buffs/debuffs for just about everything short of a couple of AVs.
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| However, if you actually invite tankers instead of forcefield defenders, or invite scrappers instead of radiation emissions controllers... |
In fact, a pug likely does better with a Tanker/Scrapper/Blaster as they aren't killing anchors or knocking things away from debuff zones.
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| How much of your time do you spend activating fulcrum shift? |
It's when you are not using/needing your primary that the damage boost will make the class more attractive to play. Or when you don't have the support of other team mates to help you out.
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While this statement seems horribly disingenuous, I can't rule out the possibility you've managed to avoid the thousands and thousands of completely incompetent players, or even the truly mediocre ones that get in too far over their heads. Even if I were to accept that at face value, it doesn't make defenders any less optimal anymore than all tanker teams prove, simply by their existence, that tankers are better or equal to scrappers. | I can't recall a PUG that didn't roll over every mission after a brief recognition of who had what powers. |
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Originally Posted by Torrynt
There are plenty of PUGs and constructed teams that do just fine without [defenders].
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Seriously, there is debate that the other archetypes are not outdone by defenders and controllers in a team? For years I thought this was common knowledge, evading only those who worship the all-powerful auto-healing-aura.
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| A few seconds. More to get positioned. Then more to keep SB up. More to get ID on people. Yet more to Siphon Speed and Power. |
You can throw the entire primary of kinetics out besides fulcrum shift, and a kin defender will still be a greater addition to a team's damage abilities than a blaster. Yes, I'm well aware blasters can still blast without defenders. You're also capable of dropping the rest of the buffs and attacking, yet seem to choose not to.
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| Ok so then you are for boosted damage? |
edit: Since subtlety loses too much in debates: I do not think ATs should be constantly buffed so they compare favorably to the other, now more powerful, ATs. Some nerfs that have been needed for many many years, and no amount of buffing will change that.
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Jokes are good, if you don't get jokes, you be embarrassed.
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Originally Posted by GreenFIame
Change is good, if you don't Adapt to Change, you be left in the Dust.
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I'm surprised I missed this:
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You are either paranoid or intentionally trying to sabotage any discussion of the issue. Congratulations.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
If your intentions are to keep defender damage as low as possible...
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There's already systems in place to prevent certain types of team stacking. Damage caps, recharge caps, etc. Tweak the existing system if a team of 8 defenders is too good. Diminishing returns on recharge and resistance debuffs would fix things in a hurry.
I've made plenty of defenders, and quite frankly I think they're second-rate controllers with only a few exceptions. I can't seriously be the only one here who, once we have a kin or rad, would oftentimes rather see a VEAT join the team than a defender, am I? My brother runs his Crab with fully enhanced VEAT leadership powers and has a high damage AoE 20% damage resist debuff, that's 40% for toxic damage, and if he he were a Bane he could stack yet another debuff on a single target. The fact that he applies his leadership buffs and AoE damage resist debuff as part of his normal actions means that they're up virtually 100% of the time, unlike defender abilities that you might get lax on or just not have time for.
To say that 8 defenders is a super team implies that it's better than other combinations, which I just don't think is objectively true. There's plenty of times when a Brute, Veat, or Controller would be equally good or better, same goes for really any other AT I can think of at the moment.
8 Random defenders aren't that great, you have to pick a very specific set defenders who don't step on each other's toes when it comes to buff/debuff caps, because when that starts to happen the other ATs whose buffs/debuffs are slightly weaker but whose damage is dramatically higher easily outpace them.
You know why novelty teams like 8 defenders, controllers, brutes, or whatever seem to work so well? Because they're one of the few times people are having enough fun to stop going AFK every other fight or just slacking off in general.
I just don't see the point in gimped defender damage. It's not a fun mechanic, and if people are going to cheese the game by stacking up 8 defenders, let them. You don't need to balance a non-competitive team around outliers like that.
Haven't read the thread, but it will obviously just be a damage increase. Hopefully it doesn't make them outshine corrs offensively, but some combos are already on the threshold of that so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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Interesting. Is this how teams you are on usually roll? Do you often drop other ATs to grab defenders or controllers? Do you often bypass searching for other ATs, even once you already have 2 or 3 buff/debuff ATs on the team? Is it unlikely for you to start running missions with a team until you have 4 or more buff/debuff ATs on it?|
Originally Posted by Dersk
If I need more damage, I can get a blaster or scrapper, or for a full team better yet to get a controller or defender...
If I need better survivability in my team I can get a tanker or perhaps a kheld, or better yet I can get a controller or defender... If we can't hit through these tohit debuffs we can get a tanker to play punching bag while blasters shoot from range, or better yet get a controller or defender... If we can't overcome this AVs regen when his damage resistance increases we... well, we're a full team already, so maybe we should kick someone and get a controller or defender... |
I am guessing you do not play that way. Why then are you trying to make it seem like that is the way people play? What is the purpose of that paragraph? Are you trying to say that is how people should play because you think the buff/debuff ATs are clearly superior to all the other ATs? I am honestly asking, what are you trying to demonstrate with that paragraph?
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Originally Posted by Dersk
Unless the team just picks up anyone that's available, the best choice isn't what archetype to get, it's which type of defender or controller to get. That only stops being true when the team is so horribly overpowered compared to the content that there's nothing more than can possibly be gained, so we might as well get a blaster that won't try to stop the team so he can buff everyone that doesn't need it.
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It is probably easier to steamroll content on heavy buff/debuff teams, because the skill level required to be successful may go down, if the buffs/debuffs are kept active (which is a higher skill level than some PuGs have).
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Originally Posted by Dersk
However, if you actually invite tankers instead of forcefield defenders, or invite scrappers instead of radiation emissions controllers...
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Originally Posted by Dersk
How much of your time do you spend activating fulcrum shift?
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Originally Posted by Dersk
Don't ask me, I don't support that magnitude of team enhancement from an individual member.
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Originally Posted by Dersk
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On top of that, those tankers will benefit from the same buffs and debuffs the defender is using, while not needing to spend any time animating those buffs and debuffs.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
What divide am I attempting to magnify?
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Originally Posted by Dersk
...the one you obviously don't think exists between those with force multipliers and those without.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
If your intentions are to keep defender damage as low as possible simply because you feel they would become some type of Optimal/Preferred AT with a 0.8 damage mod, then yes, I demean those intentions. Since I believe you are wrong, it would be hypocritical of me to be supportive of your viewpoint. I do not intend to offend or demean you, just your beliefs in this matter.
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Originally Posted by Dersk
You are either paranoid or intentionally trying to sabotage any discussion of the issue. Congratulations.
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I will paint your points in a negative light when I believe they are wrong, but I have not yet accused you of anything (although I am getting close with my questions about the paragraph I quoted at the beginning of this post, which is why I asked you to clarify).
I can be swayed, but you have to do better than, "OMG, 15 players out of 100,000 in the game solo GMs with Rad/Sonic defenders!" or fantasy scenarios where you attempt to postulate that people in the game are choosing defenders and controllers for teams over the other ATs. Hell, just 8 or 9 months ago I was in your camp, when I had the epiphany that I was being obstinate and foolish just because I loved my defenders and the defenders my friends played.
Are you not intending to keep defender damage as low as possible? Do you have an alternate suggestion for increasing defender damage on teams that you feel is better than mine or do you want to keep them right where they are damage-wise?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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No, that's exactly my point. Even with the thousands of players who do things like stack AOE immobs on flop patches. Or try to take alpha on a blaster. Or any of a million other things that are outright stupid... yet nearly all of the pugs I've been on seem to just roll right along, with or without defenders.|
Originally Posted by Dersk
While this statement seems horribly disingenuous, I can't rule out the possibility you've managed to avoid the thousands and thousands of completely incompetent players, or even the truly mediocre ones that get in too far over their heads. Even if I were to accept that at face value, it doesn't make defenders any less optimal anymore than all tanker teams prove, simply by their existence, that tankers are better or equal to scrappers.
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That doesn't make them any worse, but at least in my experience, doesn't make them significantly better in a team situation either. If I can PUG without a defender and roll through stuff with few problems, then they are not so great that every team has to have one. They are good, no doubt. Their buffs/debuffs are great and can really help a team.
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| I was not discussing need. Perhaps that was not clear? I was mentioning how defenders and controllers, heroside, are optimal over any other archetype until there is no more room for improvement. |
(1) Any 8 defenders are not likely to have the synergy to get you to soft caps on anything. If you haven't planned them out, you are no better than an average PUG. 8 kins? Not so good. 8 Emps really slow. 8 FF, pretty bad. So what we are really talking about is a superteam of specific defenders to get you to various caps. This is not something to point at for class balance. 8 random defenders is likely on par as 8 random anythings.
(2) There is only so much damage that is needed to kill a mob. Sure 8 rad/* defenders can floor lots of stuff. However, 8 blasters makes them just as dead... quicker too. If mob HP was infinite, I might agree, but since it's not, dead is dead. There are a scant few monster/AV fights where debuffs are nearly required... however outside of that, killing a mob is far better than debuffing it.
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| Countering that with the fact that teams without them exist and manage to complete missions is rather irrelevant to that issue. There is more to justify for beneficial changes than "this won't stop anyone else from playing." |
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| Seriously, there is debate that the other archetypes are not outdone by defenders and controllers in a team? For years I thought this was common knowledge, evading only those who worship the all-powerful auto-healing-aura. |
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| If you're spending a lot of time throwing around increase density, siphon speed, and siphon power, you're either wasting your time, or you'd benefit more than would be expected by replacing some of those team members with other other defenders/controllers because you're constantly fighting to keep the team moving (which I'm told doesn't happen once everyone knows each other's powersets). Siphon power is mostly a waste of attacking time once fulcrum shift is available anyway. |
Sub in whatever set you want. Rad? Ok RI, EF, LR get cast a respectable amount. EMP when it's up. If they were so necessary, why does my Rad defenders rarely use them on a high level PUG team? Because stuff dies way to quick for it to be really necessary. I'll toss out EF since it's quick, keep AM up and throw a heal to top people off, but those buffs, which rock, just aren't needed as much on a decent team.
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| You can throw the entire primary of kinetics out besides fulcrum shift, and a kin defender will still be a greater addition to a team's damage abilities than a blaster. Yes, I'm well aware blasters can still blast without defenders. You're also capable of dropping the rest of the buffs and attacking, yet seem to choose not to. |
Now in reality (and I have a 50 Kin/Rad, and 50 Fire/Kin, and a 50 Ice/Kin) you don't get everyone in. You likely catch the tank and 1-2 scrappers that dove in ahead of you. They need to do a whole lot of AOE to make up for the average blaster. Otherwise that extra damage gets wasted as they over kill single targets.
If we're duoing or running in a team of three, then no way. Blaster does more.
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| I'm for a lot of things to improve the quality of play of defenders, but increasing the damage mod to as much as 0.8 is not one of them. |
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| edit: Since subtlety loses too much in debates: I do not think ATs should be constantly buffed so they compare favorably to the other, now more powerful, ATs. Some nerfs that have been needed for many many years, and no amount of buffing will change that. |
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I do not believe an 8 man team of all controllers/defenders is necessarily better than a more balanced team. However, you can roll dice to choose 8 defender primaries and then roll dice to match them to 8 defender secondaries, and that team would own anything in the game, IMO. I cannot imagine ANY 8 defender team with reasonable power choices that would not stomp over ALL content in the game.|
Originally Posted by Torrynt
No. This I completely refute. Two reasons:
(1) Any 8 defenders are not likely to have the synergy to get you to soft caps on anything. If you haven't planned them out, you are no better than an average PUG. 8 kins? Not so good. 8 Emps really slow. 8 FF, pretty bad. So what we are really talking about is a superteam of specific defenders to get you to various caps. This is not something to point at for class balance. 8 random defenders is likely on par as 8 random anythings. (2) There is only so much damage that is needed to kill a mob. Sure 8 rad/* defenders can floor lots of stuff. However, 8 blasters makes them just as dead... quicker too. If mob HP was infinite, I might agree, but since it's not, dead is dead. There are a scant few monster/AV fights where debuffs are nearly required... however outside of that, killing a mob is far better than debuffing it. |
You said 8 emps would be slow! You said 8 FF defenders would be pretty bad! You should stop now, because you are not helping my cause.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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8 emps aren't slow. Adrenal boost and double/triple fortitude for everyone.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
You said 8 emps would be slow! You said 8 FF defenders would be pretty bad! You should stop now, because you are not helping my cause. |
8 FF is slow. FF is an example of defs that don't stack well because after 2 of them they are entirely redundant.
Yes, 8 Emps are slow. Compared to some of the other primaries that have much better synergy and improve what Defenders lack... damage. 8 Emps are safe, but Adrenal boost is still only up 50-75% of the time and it only helps damage in that you get a +Rech, which is nice, but not nearly as helpful as -Res or +Dmg.
At some point +Rech gets redundant in regards to your attack chain as the animation/cast times begin to dictate what you are going to be casting. That limit can also be reached with IOs.
I'll stick by that and when I see a superteam of all emps roaming around that can be even mentioned in the same breath as 8 Rads, then I'll concede the point.
Primaries that Stack Well:
Rad, Dark, Cold
Primaries that Stack Somewhat Well:
Storm, Kinetics (Pre FS), TA
Primaries that don't stack Well:
FF, Sonic, Kinetics (post FS), Empathy
I haven't played with traps but would imagine it would stack pretty well. Keep in mind that primaries that don't stack are still wonderful. However, you only get benefit for 1 or perhaps 2 of those primaries on the same team before you are running into cap limits.
Also, most defender primaries get pretty useless when the team can wipe a spawn before the buffs can even be cast. At that point what should your defender be doing?
How many times has your defender been on a team with a Tank + 3 really good DPSers. The tank runs in, the DPSers wipe most of the spawn as you are trying to debuff. The mob is now scattered and decimated and you need to do cleanup. What is your role on that team?
For me, I would say that you have a secondary offense. You nail the stragglers! Of course if it takes you longer to kill the odd minion/lt as it did for them to wipe the spawn, then something is very wrong with defender damage.
QR
There are two reasons why Defenders are so hard to balance:
1) Soft capped defense for 6/8 memebers of the team.
2) +MaxHP buffs for 4/8 memebers of the team without slotting
3) Res to F/C/E and recharge debuffs
4) Significant recharge, damage, regen, and resistance debuffs along with knockdowns
5) Endurance recovery
6) -Special debuff
That's with just two Defenders. You could push it further by adding a Kin or Rad to the team. (There is also the possibility of making them Sonic Blast..)
A bit of an extreme example, yes, but illustration that you don't need 8 Defenders for things to get absurd really, really quick.
What does this have to do with damage?
If Defenders already overperform on teams due to their primary, then adding more damage would only do one thing: make them perfrom even better on teams, the exact place where Defenders don't need help because they're already overperforming. (Remember, not only are the Defenders increasing the damage of the team, they are increasing their own damage, as well.)
With the large difference in performance as it is, universally increasing their damage is far more likely to push some combination into "too high" territory.
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Having said all that, I do understand where the desire to have stronger attacks - when I first started playing, I thought Defenders would have attacks stronger than they had. However, given the current potency of Defender primaries, I don't think it would be a good idea. I think Corruptors have a better balance between offense and defense. They tend to solo better, don't multiply quite as much, but are still very useful on teams. Outside of diminishing returns on buffs/debuffs (which I don't want to see added) or reducing their strength, I don't see any universal increase to base damage to be wise.