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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Pretty much. Ally only buffs are utterly useless to a defender. The reason that there is so much spread in how well the different primaries solo is that unlike other sets the Buff sets are the only ones that regularly have powers that provide no benefit solo. Look at shield defense, it has a power specifically for aiding teammates but even that provides some solo utility (DDR and Slow res). |
Yep. Thats something we all know. My observation was more or less two things.
1) In a thread where someone was asking which Defender primary to choose if they wanted to solo quickly and possibly raise difficulty to x8. (Which EVERY other AT hero-side can do with some measure of effort, except SOME Defenders). Five of the primaries were singled out as top performers. Those same 5 are the ones that can use ALL of their non-heal, non-rezz powers while solo.
2) That from my estimation the Defender powersets most in need of help, coincidentally have the highest number of non-heal, non-rez powers that are useless solo.
Its an interesting coincidence, and not one (I am sure) that surprises anyone.
Its also interesting to note that the same arguments over defender parity and balance "pop-up" in a thread about our new inherent. For me that is not surprising, since our current Inherent doesn't help at all while solo and most folks (I believe) feel the only balance problems with Defenders are in the "solo" arena. **Pvp too I would bet, but I dont participate in that, so only guessing**
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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QFT. Controllers outdamaging defenders only occurs at the upper levels thanks to the epic pools and inventions. The most damaging thing a defender can get out of their epics is electric fence. If they had a respectable melee damage modifier, and actually got some of the good blaster melee attacks (energy bunch, bone smasher) then things would be very different. As it is, they get the worst melee attacks they possibly can (total focus and thunderstrike) and they're on double their normal recharge times. It's not unusual for an epic power to have an increased recharge time than it would normally have, but the exact pattern isn't easy to figure out.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
My kin/sonic is sadly not as fast as my plant/kin, nor as safe, but that is almost entirely due to how overpowered controller epics still are (especially stone, I mean perma capped hp, s/l softcap, huge st burst, and good aoe). But pre epics the plant wasn't as fast, but was safer. I don't blame defenders for controllers being too good though.
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I believe Controllers have it pretty good myself Garent, but I am not 100% in agreement with you on when they are really good. But its probably just my perspective.|
Originally Posted by Garent
QFT. Controllers outdamaging defenders only occurs at the upper levels thanks to the epic pools and inventions. The most damaging thing a defender can get out of their epics is electric fence. If they had a respectable melee damage modifier, and actually got some of the good blaster melee attacks (energy bunch, bone smasher) then things would be very different. As it is, they get the worst melee attacks they possibly can (total focus and thunderstrike) and they're on double their normal recharge times. It's not unusual for an epic power to have an increased recharge time than it would normally have, but the exact pattern isn't easy to figure out.
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My current favorite Controller (Mind-Rad) is SO-d out and He is flying through content in his 20s that was considerably more difficult for my Empath at the same levels. Once Bio hit 28 and picked up Tesla Cage, he did considerably better than he had been doing up to that point, but unless content gets much more difficult in the 30s, My controller is already much better, but not because of damage; but due to the extreme safety that he can provide to himself.
And I am not convinced that my Defender was even better in the damage department, because the only "non-contained" damage my controller does is the very first attack and on Bosses.
If, however, the damage divide you are referring to is AoE damage, then I definitely would agree with you.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Of course the survivability matters. What a silly thing to dismiss. You are effectively saying it is ok for Archetype A to do the same damage as Archetype B that also has 10 times the survivability? hmm|
Originally Posted by Torrynt
I have and had acknowledged that the defenders are far more survivable. That's not in real question. The contention was that giving defenders more damage makes blasters obsolete, which is ludicrous. It was not true when tankers got a buff and wouldn't be true here.
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It's not about making blasters obsolete (not sure when that was raised), it is about making defenders stronger than they should be.
Tanks are not precedent in buffing defenders. You can be sure that if tanks had ways of further buffing their damage (and the teams damage) people would complain about them relative to scrappers (ie superstrength already takes heat. Now imagine if footstomp did 20% -res too).
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| I'd argue +3's for most toons, but that's nit picking and opinion. However, this was my point all along. Adding damage to defenders doesn't matter since you can pick the least survivable team and they will likely roll right along through most of the content. Add in any sort of mitigation tanker/defender/controller, and they will crush any content. The content itself is easy enough that differences in power are mitigated since anyone can complete it easily enough. |
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Now that we're finally back on topic, I would rather see a situation where the defender plays the same in all cases. Look how up in arms people got over the PvP changes. Many of the comments were that their characters did not play the same PvP to PvE. If you have some kind of tiered solution, you run into the same situation. At least that's what I think would happen. I suppose a sliding damage scale could work. It'd be kudgy, but might address some concerns. So .8 solo, .75 with 1 team mate, .70 with 2-3, and .65 with 4+. That might work, I'd rather a flat damage increase... but at least this would address most of the major concerns. |
The degree of separation between say a FF and a Rad def would still be large, but not as large as if you were to adjust their base damage modifier.
Your example of a def performing differently in a team versus solo with the example I gave is a gross exaggeration. Think of the rave reviews cosmic balance has gotten.
Here I'll even do a write up of the new inherent:
While alone a defender focuses their power on bringing justice to those that would do wrong. When surrounded by allies the defender turns that power toward their team and leads them through the danger.
Solo: +dam (15 maybe 25%)
Team: +special (again 15 maybe 25%)
I also don't want Castle to get rid of vigilance. I actually like it quite a bit. My storm/sonic loved it.
The thing is defenders really don't need much. They are already very good. What they need is a bit of shoring up of their solo performance and a bit of distinction relative to trollers and corrs in their team role.
And when I say a bit, I sure as heck don't mean taking their damage modifier up to .8. If that is what Castle ends up doing he is going to get a flaming bag on his doorstep from all of my corruptors. Unless corrs go up to .9, but then blasters would need to go up again too. Ahh balance.
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All that would be left to address is what a defender is supposed to do on a team that is already destroying the content without their buffs? Like when you go to use RI or EF and the mob is dead long before the animation finishes. On a team like that, your .65 is glaringly bad and your role should be supporting offense. They don't need your buffs as the mobs are dying so fast anyway. P.S. My Kin/Rad did not solo quickly... there was far too much faceplanting for soloing quickly. |
If you are on a team steamrolling that fast your defender damage is not glaringly bad because no one is getting off more than one attack. A good defender, like any archetype, recognizes when their powers are needed and when they aren't. If things are so easy that you don't need RI then don't use it. My blaster doesn't nuke every time I could. I don't use hurricane all the time. I don't use dimension shift all the time...etc.
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Mind and Rad both mature very quickly. In fact mind is tops for damage pre pets and Rad is good to go by lvl 10 (EF). Additonally in the early levels (up to around the mid teens) the AT scalars haven't fully kicked in (iirc they fully kick in around lvl 18 or 20). So low damage toons are doing more damage relative to what they eventually will. If you double that inflated damage (ie containment) it is very strong.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
I believe Controllers have it pretty good myself Garent, but I am not 100% in agreement with you on when they are really good. But its probably just my perspective.
My current favorite Controller (Mind-Rad) is SO-d out and He is flying through content in his 20s that was considerably more difficult for my Empath at the same levels. Once Bio hit 28 and picked up Tesla Cage, he did considerably better than he had been doing up to that point, but unless content gets much more difficult in the 30s, My controller is already much better, but not because of damage; but due to the extreme safety that he can provide to himself. And I am not convinced that my Defender was even better in the damage department, because the only "non-contained" damage my controller does is the very first attack and on Bosses. If, however, the damage divide you are referring to is AoE damage, then I definitely would agree with you. |
At the same time emp/elec, which is one of the weakest damage defenders you can make.
So one of the strongest early game trollers (damage wise and control wise) compared to one of the weakest early game defenders.
I feel your pain, but that is not evidence to make any changes to defenders.
Mind/rad is always a decent st mini blaster. But it's aoe damage (what really powers the game) is almost non-existent. Comparatively short circuit and ball lightning both hit 16 targets. But they are such different toons with different strengths that comparing them and making any formal declaration is unsound. That said, elec blast is pretty weak imo. My elec/kin corr stalled in the early 20's and was just brutally painful to play.
The first defender I have rolled was an Emp/Rad. He's one of the first toons I made and is still sitting at lvl 36. I only play him once in a blue moon, mainly because when it comes to doing anything outside of a group it's painfully slow killing anything. Being able to solo him more effectively may entice me to actually do something with him. I'm not looking to be able to roll through mobs like a scrapper with that toon. But there are times where teaming isn't viable or you just don't want to team. In times like those playing a defender becomes a much bigger liability when compared to the other AT's with buff/debuff/heal capabilities, such as the Controller or Corruptor. Defenders don't need to be made into damage machines but a little more parity between the three AT's that have support sets would be nice.
give us the damage boost and fire blast...
coming soon to PvP line-ups near you...Fire/Emp Defenders
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Hehe, no.. no.. I wasnt suggesting anything like that.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I feel your pain, but that is not evidence to make any changes to defenders.
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I was responding to Garent's post regarding How controllers only out-damage Defender's in the end game. What I meant was that I was not 100% in agreement, because "containment" is a game-changing ability for Controllers at all levels.
I DO, however think that a Level 50 controller, especially a Pet-using one is going to outperform most defenders, especially in the AoE department.
And the example was to show that in solo cases at base settings, I really think a Controller does as much or more damage and is MUCH safer. The latter is actually my biggest gripe about the situation. I dont care whether Controllers out-damage Defenders, but to do so AND be safer while solo is not "balanced"
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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That is already in the game. Tankers out damage most/many defenders and have significantly higher survivability. They also have arguably an equally important role on a team. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Of course the survivability matters. What a silly thing to dismiss. You are effectively saying it is ok for Archetype A to do the same damage as Archetype B that also has 10 times the survivability? hmm
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| It's not about making blasters obsolete (not sure when that was raised), it is about making defenders stronger than they should be. |
The fallacy in arguing that you can't buff defender damage since multiple defenders can boost performance is that unless you are going to neuter the buff mechanic, you already allow force multiplication. It doesn't matter that defenders in groups get better, since everyone gets better than defenders in groups.
As long as they trade some damage in each setting to offset their utility and survivability, then you have balance. Which is why I pointed out that 8 EMPs is likely eclipse by 4 EMPs and 4 DPSers.
If by buffing defender damage, those defenders outperform the members of their team, then yes, they are overpowered. However, even at .8 or .75 that is not too likely.
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| Tanks are not precedent in buffing defenders. You can be sure that if tanks had ways of further buffing their damage (and the teams damage) people would complain about them relative to scrappers (ie superstrength already takes heat. Now imagine if footstomp did 20% -res too). |
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| This is a very dangerous way of thinking about game balance. You are effectively saying that as long as it isn't "game breaking" it doesn't matter. That isn't the way the devs balance things and I agree with their approach in most cases. |
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| I certainly wouldn't want it to be a base damage modifier (I don't think it is possible anyway). If they took the approach of more damage solo, more buff/debuff in a team it would be via +dam and +special. |
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| Your example of a def performing differently in a team versus solo with the example I gave is a gross exaggeration. Think of the rave reviews cosmic balance has gotten. |
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| The thing is defenders really don't need much. They are already very good. What they need is a bit of shoring up of their solo performance and a bit of distinction relative to trollers and corrs in their team role. |
I think the defender inherant either should behave a bit more like its corruptor counterpart, since there basically the same powers anyway red side needs to be slightly more offence, whilst defenders should be slightly more defence.
The other option is to make the powers equal and leave the inherants as they are. To close this gap would be fairly simple, just match defenders damage numbers with corruptors damage numbers.
This wouldnt unbalance corruptors since they already have scrouge to give them damage boost, defenders get more damage whilst keeping there endurence discount. This would make the gap a lot smaller, yet still give an advantage to playing one or the other.
Example of current damage gap from mids:
Nova on Defenders energy set currently deals 90 damage unslotted
Nova on Corruptor energy set currently deals 203 damage unslotted
This is a very large gap and most other archetypes can hit more than defenders version before even getting a nuke power.
Of course this is only a small example but from what I can see it applies to most sets.
The other idea I had was possibly making buffs and debuffs increase in effectiveness for defenders whilst on a team and balancing the entire set with corruptors, so you still have lower buffs and debuffs whilst solo since its the same as the corruptor version, but in a team they increase effectiveness and you always have that damage boost but no scrouge.
This would balance the two pretty well but still leave a clear difference between them.
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I spoke a little too hastily. Like tankers, defenders have some minor-moderate issues around the 16-28 area because their important attack powers are in their secondary and come much later.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Once Bio hit 28 and picked up Tesla Cage, he did considerably better than he had been doing up to that point, but unless content gets much more difficult in the 30s
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BUT...this is going to sound sort of disrespectful, but I'm completely serious when I say a large part of the problem is that you're electric. It's a set whose good powers are the first three ones and the last three ones with a large dead zone right in the middle of them. If both of your characters had the same buff/debuff set and the controller had earth control, then the difference between the two would be very obvious.
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Sorry for the double post. My version of Mids (database version 16.1147) shows defender nova doing 176 damage on average. I'm not sure where the 90 damage number is coming from, because my version says that even if none of the random extra damage hits then the power still does 108 damage.
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Originally Posted by Predatoric
Example of current damage gap from mids:
Nova on Defenders energy set currently deals 90 damage unslotted Nova on Corruptor energy set currently deals 203 damage unslotted |
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ok.. im on the same version lol. Sorry i had PvP mode ticked |
Originally Posted by Garent
Sorry for the double post. My version of Mids (database version 16.1147) shows defender nova doing 176 damage on average. I'm not sure where the 90 damage number is coming from, because my version says that even if none of the random extra damage hits then the power still does 108 damage.
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My bad.
Its still 176 vs 203 corruptor damage though, which after enhances is a fair bit of damage.
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I'm not going to address the rest because we simply disagree about game balance. That is ok, but an endless circle.|
Originally Posted by Torrynt
That is already in the game. Tankers out damage most/many defenders and have significantly higher survivability. They also have arguably an equally important role on a team.
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This one however: if I drop freezing rain (35% -res) that will take the teams damage from 100% to 135% of whatever it was. That is a 26% increase. In other words I'm now responsible for 26% of the teams damage*
8 people on a team, equal damage role = 12.5% total damage. So with one power I'm already doing DOUBLE the expected damage on a team and I haven't even used a blast yet.
*This figure does not include the -def, which will push the number higher in many situations.
With a single power I can contribute as much to overall team kill speed as a fireblaster or spines scrapper. Yes my personal damage contribution isn't a heap of orange numbers, but that is being small minded to look at it in only that context. I may very well only end up with half of what the blaster is doing, but through my forcemultiplication powers I've already won the race. Defenders aren't "me me me" they are "us us us".
You should see what my storm/sonic does to AV kill speed for a team lol.
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You're neglecting the fact that Defenders have 13% to 30% better buffs/debuffs than Corruptors across the board. If you're going to boost Defender damage to Corruptor base levels then you probably need to give Corruptors at least a small boost to their buffs/debuffs as well.|
Originally Posted by Predatoric
This wouldnt unbalance corruptors since they already have scrouge to give them damage boost, defenders get more damage whilst keeping there endurence discount. This would make the gap a lot smaller, yet still give an advantage to playing one or the other.
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Example of current damage gap from mids: Nova on Defenders energy set currently deals 90 damage unslotted Nova on Corruptor energy set currently deals 203 damage unslotted |
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...rgy_Blast.Nova
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...rgy_Blast.Nova
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| The other idea I had was possibly making buffs and debuffs increase in effectiveness for defenders whilst on a team and balancing the entire set with corruptors, so you still have lower buffs and debuffs whilst solo since its the same as the corruptor version, but in a team they increase effectiveness and you always have that damage boost but no scrouge. |
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Your response was not disrespectfull at all |
Originally Posted by Garent
I spoke a little too hastily. Like tankers, defenders have some minor-moderate issues around the 16-28 area because their important attack powers are in their secondary and come much later.
BUT...this is going to sound sort of disrespectful, but I'm completely serious when I say a large part of the problem is that you're electric. It's a set whose good powers are the first three ones and the last three ones with a large dead zone right in the middle of them. If both of your characters had the same buff/debuff set and the controller had earth control, then the difference between the two would be very obvious. |
I acknowledge that my two comparisons are probably at the polar opposites for the level range that we were discussing (being that Emp/Electric could very well be the worst ST defender and Mind/Rad could very well be the best ST choice), however, I have played many, many defenders and controllers thru the first 25 levels over the years and what I believe is;
Prior to the implementation of "Containment" Controllers were "safe" soloers with low damage, while Defenders did more damage but were much less "safe" while solo. That was not a good situation for either AT, but it was at least balanced. Now with the Controller Inherent being what it is, I really do feel Controllers have it pretty good at all levels. Their damage is still at the "low" end, but the added safety makes them MUCH more solo-able than some defenders.
So, from one of my many previous posts regarding Defender Inherent, what would be balanced would be either to restore Defender-Controller balance to how it was (With Controllers being safer but slower, and Defenders dealing clearly more damage (at all levels) but in less safety) OR.... Do something to put Defenders "on-par" defensively with Controllers while solo, which creates a greater distinction between them and Corruptors.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I think this is the second time mids has been the cause for screwy numbers in this thread. The first one being from me.
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Originally Posted by Predatoric
ok.. im on the same version lol. Sorry i had PvP mode ticked
My bad. Its still 176 vs 203 corruptor damage though, which after enhances is a fair bit of damage. |
Well, it's confirmed to be a damage bonus that scales up or down based on the number of teammates present. 30% decreasing by 10% for every teammate (minimum of 0% obviously). Interestingly this is apparently being layered on top of the current Vigilance so we still get the endurance discount.
Starsman did some charts, and right now defenders and corruptors are very close in solo damage output. Exactly how they compare depends on the specific powersets/builds. +damage will favor the corruptor and -res will favor the defender.
That makes sense. Of course, Corruptors get Scourge which increases their damage further (albeit in a hard to quantify manner).
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I'm pretty sure Starsman's charts included Scourge in his calculations.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
That makes sense. Of course, Corruptors get Scourge which increases their damage further (albeit in a hard to quantify manner).
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If the charts in question are from several months or so ago, then yes they included scourge in the analysis.
Scourge is greatly overstated by the general populace. It is a much lower damage increaser than people realize.
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Yes and no. It doesn't provide a huge overall bonus, but it does provide a nice bonus where you really need it: solo facing a single tough enemy (i.e. a Boss or EB).
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Scourge is greatly overstated by the general populace. It is a much lower damage increaser than people realize.
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I was waiting for the beta to go open! Not just because it would be one step closer to live but the fact I had something to say about the Defender's new Vigilance but couldn't because NDA disallows talking about it in the public forums and I couldn't get onto the closed beta boards (if there were any)
So here goes.
YES!
FINALLY!
My main hero's a defender and I'm very happy he's now going to be decent to solo with and deal extra damage on duos and trios! The only thing I would ask for a perfected inherent would be to scale damage specifically for how 'alive' your remaining team-mates were instead of a full-on damage loss for having an extra member.
Under the new Vigilance, if you're part of a four-man team, the damage boost is depleted. But if any of those other three are face-planted, you've still got no damage boost. It would be nice if:
Count all the percentages of all team-mates except yourself. If you're in a four-man team, the percent is 300%. For every 10% less health under 300%, the defender gets 1% damage boost. If you have a 8-man team, more people would have to be in critical or faceplant condition before the Defender can start to claim back their damage boost.
It would be under the pretence that as the situation becomes more dire and the Defender is on their own, their vigilance gives them the power to fight with more focus and vigour for their downed team-mates, which is obviously reduced as team-mates rez again.
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The defenders are doing base damage of:
0.65 * (1 + 0.95 + 0.5 + 0.5) = 2.95 damage
Additionally we have 6 -30% resistance debuffs, but we'll assume we are fighting +3s so that actually only give 19.5% debuff each. So the Defenders actually do:
2.95 * (1 - (6 * -0.195)) = 6.4015 damage
Now we shall assume that the Blasters are using both Aim and Build Up:
1.125 * (1 + 0.95 + 0.625 + 1) = 4.02 damage
I'll also point out that the defenders can apply resistance debuffs to basically every spawn and most of them will last the duration of the fight whereas Blasters only get Aim and Build Up for their first few attacks. Defenders with resistance debuffs don't deal blaster level damage on their own but when you stack a few of them, especially if you combine some damage buffs (since -res and +dam stack multiplicatively) the damage quickly reaches ludicrous levels.
And if you list the sets by order of how many Ally-only buffs, the list seems to take on the order of worst to best soloers amongst the remaining sets