What keeps CoX from being the TOP MMO?
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-03-23 03:33 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
When I hear people on other sites talk about CoH, they're mostly like "Is that still running?", "I used to play that, it was alright", "Isn't everyone playing Champions Online now?", and so on.
Any MMO older than WoW tends to be obscure and people will be surprised it's still going.
Eleven and half million subscribers.
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Except maybe those things don't matter as much to as many people as we'd like to believe. Now that's not to say I don't love our character creator and our travel powers(I'd like to see a few more, in fact.)|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
In order for WoW to be better than CoX it would have to severely step up its character creation, lower requirements on travel powers even further, and really work on being a lot less boring overall.
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What I mean is that sometimes there is overemphasis on an element of a game that doesn't add quite as much to it(overall) as we would like to think.
I think it was either someone from Valve or Blizzard who said that in playtesting you need to watch what people do, not so much what they say about your game. If, in fact, character customization(cosmetic) and fast travel times were the major things that catapulted an MMO to the top and encouraged player retention, then COX should be a much bigger player in the MMO space.
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| Oh wait, that wasn't the question, was it? |
Just a note on player retention:
It has been well documented over the years that COX has player retention and a low churn rate that makes other MMOs jealous.
Maybe that is because it was really the only one out there with such a plethora of customisation options for so long.
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Maybe I'm underestimating the impact customization has on MMOs. I'm as much an altaholic as the next guy. I have almost 3 servers full of toons. I spend a long time in the costume creator when I make a toon. I think a lot of people do.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Just a note on player retention:
It has been well documented over the years that COX has player retention and a low churn rate that makes other MMOs jealous. Maybe that is because it was really the only one out there with such a plethora of customisation options for so long. |
The thing is that then you leave he costume creator and play the actual game. Does getting the perfect look for your toon actually make the playing of the game better?
COX's customization options have grown and grown. Now we have power customization as well. Was this at the expense of expansion of the core game? Perhaps I'm just getting jaded, but having the toon with exactly the powers I want, with the perfect look that I want and then I enter generic cave map 71635 is starting to feel a little empty.
I think the way to put it might be that my toon feels more real and complete than than the world he/she is inhabiting. And as our costume options and power options have advanced, it doesn't seem like the game has kept up. I keep thinking we'll finally get missions that feel more superheroish and have more to do in them than pound on randomly generated enemy spawns. I really hope GR brings some of this stuff when it comes. That's one of the reasons I'm looking to get more info on it before I preorder.
Wow also has a lot of burn and churn, the head honcho at Blizzard said that 70% of all characters ever created never get past level 10.
WoW is the mmo for when you have the free time. The endgame requires dedicating four hours a day, three times a week (that's a casual raiding guild, the hardcore ones are six days a week) plus you then have to grind gold in order to buy all the best stuff (potions etc.) for the upcoming raids. So you're looking at putting in a minimum of 16 hours (12 to raid, 4 for gold grind) a week to have a chance at maybe getting something epic for your character...
You really do need to dedicate a lot of time to WoW to get the most out of it. City of Heroes, by comparrison, is very casual (despite what the old 'elite' say about modern WoW being "like so casual it sucks, anybody can get epics, phft...stupid welfare epics, you don't deserve them, back in my day epic meant something!") and appeals to those whose time is a bit more restrictive.
the "heroes" name is a stigma for people in tights. That is what people think this game solely is. Villains ftw, would be better if they rebranded to CoV.
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That's another thing. Back when I was playing SWG pre-NGE, the biggest complaint about CoH, (other than the repetitive grind) was that it was a casual MMO, and not as immersive as other games. Granted a lot of options have been added since, but I've been here pretty solidly for the last 2 years so I'm out of the loop. Does the MMO community still brush off CHV as a casual, easy MMO? There was the AE backlash post the Rikti Comm Farms nerf, but what's the current opinion of the game from those that don't play?
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Wow also has a lot of burn and churn, the head honcho at Blizzard said that 70% of all characters ever created never get past level 10.
WoW is the mmo for when you have the free time. The endgame requires dedicating four hours a day, three times a week (that's a casual raiding guild, the hardcore ones are six days a week) plus you then have to grind gold in order to buy all the best stuff (potions etc.) for the upcoming raids. So you're looking at putting in a minimum of 16 hours (12 to raid, 4 for gold grind) a week to have a chance at maybe getting something epic for your character... You really do need to dedicate a lot of time to WoW to get the most out of it. City of Heroes, by comparrison, is very casual (despite what the old 'elite' say about modern WoW being "like so casual it sucks, anybody can get epics, phft...stupid welfare epics, you don't deserve them, back in my day epic meant something!") and appeals to those whose time is a bit more restrictive. |
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
Money. For what? Advertising.
If CoX had the money to advertise to a wider audience, (hell, ANY audience; most people I talk to have either never heard of it or thought it went under years ago!) would add a lot more clobber.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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"Better" is a value judgement. Everyone's is different. As such, the question itself is fairly pointless.|
Originally Posted by cp2_4eva
I was reading the massive awards page and thought to myself, "What would it take for CoX to be better than WoW?" This might be a hard question to answer other than one obvious solution.....WoW disappears.
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| But outside of that how is it that WoW remains on top? Is it that it has longevity? Is it that it's genre is the most popular? Is it that it has great expansion packs? Is it the graphics? What gives? |
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| I just want to see CoX reign supreme. |
This game isn't for everyone. I, for one, love it. And so do a lot of people. But it's a waste of time for the devs to go chasing some mutant behemoth like WoW.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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In a very real sense, I think AE has hurt COX's reputation more than it helped. The initial publicity we got from actually having an option for user-made content was quickly overshadowed by the rampant farming and exploiting that went on shortly after it got released. It actually hurt a bit to hear people talking abut COX as a farming sim and autoleveler. More so since I couldn't really defend it. Since that is what it became for a while.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
That's another thing. Back when I was playing SWG pre-NGE, the biggest complaint about CoH, (other than the repetitive grind) was that it was a casual MMO, and not as immersive as other games. Granted a lot of options have been added since, but I've been here pretty solidly for the last 2 years so I'm out of the loop. Does the MMO community still brush off CHV as a casual, easy MMO? There was the AE backlash post the Rikti Comm Farms nerf, but what's the current opinion of the game from those that don't play?
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I think that probably the good thing to come out of all that is that people aren't looking at AE that much anymore outside the game. I don't really hear people refer to AE as a reason for playing or not playing COX much these days.
In truth, COX is mostly not referred to at all unless people are discussing Champions and comparing the two. Probably the best thing for this game now is to quickly get GR ready for the public. And marketing is essential. But apparently not to our marketing department...
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You've completely missed what others have told you. WoW is a mutant. Quite literally NO other MMO has anything CLOSE to WoW's numbers.|
Originally Posted by cp2_4eva
If WoW has 1.5 mill subscribers and we have that 165k (some of which aren't even playing anymore) then our CoX team might be doing something wrong.
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A "successful" MMO is usually considered to be one with between 75-120K active subscribers at the 12 month mark. WoW, with it's numbers 10-20x that is an anomaly. And anyone using WoW's numbers as a benchmark is pretty much doomed to be disappointed.
One of the reasons Marvel Universe Online was dropped (and became Champions Online) was the fact that they couldn't promise the publisher WoW-type numbers. AND THEY WERE RIGHT NOT TO.
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| People say the Sci Fi thing is a niche thing....well so is Dungeons and Dragons. |
There are niches, the there are niches.
Epic Fantasy is an "everyone who owns a cell phone" type of niche.
Comic Book Superhero Fantasy is an "everyone who owns an iPhone" niche.
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| I know alot of people who can stand running around in chain armor and shields slaying dragons and stuff. I know tons of people who grew up on comics rather than DnD. Each is it's own genre. CoX just hasn't been capitalizing on all the comic movies/shows that have came out and continue to come out. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Asheron's Call is the MMO for when you have the free time. Sadly, for that reason I have reason to believe I'll never play it again. But yeah, it takes so long to level...Everyone uses AMPs...But AC isn't the game for people who like their shiny phat loot pixels. It's there, it's got an extensive crafting system, but we ran epic quests because they were fun. The quests were as old as CoH so their rewards had depowered over the years, but we still ran them even when they took from 11PM to 6AM. Well, I gave in 4AM, but I'd done the quest before. (I was playing with mostly Americans so for them it was something like 6PM to 1AM)|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Wow also has a lot of burn and churn, the head honcho at Blizzard said that 70% of all characters ever created never get past level 10.
WoW is the mmo for when you have the free time. The endgame requires dedicating four hours a day, three times a week (that's a casual raiding guild, the hardcore ones are six days a week) plus you then have to grind gold in order to buy all the best stuff (potions etc.) for the upcoming raids. So you're looking at putting in a minimum of 16 hours (12 to raid, 4 for gold grind) a week to have a chance at maybe getting something epic for your character... You really do need to dedicate a lot of time to WoW to get the most out of it. City of Heroes, by comparrison, is very casual (despite what the old 'elite' say about modern WoW being "like so casual it sucks, anybody can get epics, phft...stupid welfare epics, you don't deserve them, back in my day epic meant something!") and appeals to those whose time is a bit more restrictive. |
But getting onto the point: WoW is more succesful than CoH because the average MMO gamer isn't casual.
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You can also play EVE for absolutely free if you're willing to grind ISK for 70 hours a month. Don't forget that when considering EVE's player numbers. You might as well compare CoX to Runescape while you're at it.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
EVE Online is about as niche as you can get. It's a small niche, within a niche. It has more than 3 times our numbers and it started with about 19k players.
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Edited to add: Yes yes, I know CCP claims that all PLEX are bought from CCP with cash money and such. They also claimed they don't allow their GMs to cheat for players, and they don't interfere with player run corps. CCP has a trust level of about 10% from me, frankly. There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that they generate PLEX on the fly simply to artificially inflate their player numbers.
Side tangent: I can't blame them, though. Everything they lie about is for the betterment of their game. Band of Brothers was GREAT press for them. Controversy pays off. Heck, it's even good business sense to DO so. You don't rise up in any business by being a paragon of virtue and truthfulness. Which is why most small businesses.. including my own.. fail so quickly. Honesty does not pay.
But I'd rather sleep soundly at night knowing I'm a good man then be a scumbag sleeping on silk sheets gained through deceit, lol; which pretty much assures I'll die poor.
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Your dislike of EVE aside(and your bitterness about your lot in life), there was no PLEX when I was playing it. And it still had more players than COX. The GM scandal didn't surface til after I left...and no matter how much people speculate, there is no proof one way or another that it wasn't an isolated incident. For that matter, we have no idea how much that happens in any MMO.|
Originally Posted by NobleFox
You can also play EVE for absolutely free if you're willing to grind ISK for 70 hours a month. Don't forget that when considering EVE's player numbers. You might as well compare CoX to Runescape while you're at it.
Edited to add: Yes yes, I know CCP claims that all PLEX are bought from CCP with cash money and such. They also claimed they don't allow their GMs to cheat for players, and they don't interfere with player run corps. CCP has a trust level of about 10% from me, frankly. There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that they generate PLEX on the fly simply to artificially inflate their player numbers. Side tangent: I can't blame them, though. Everything they lie about is for the betterment of their game. Band of Brothers was GREAT press for them. Controversy pays off. Heck, it's even good business sense to DO so. You don't rise up in any business by being a paragon of virtue and truthfulness. Which is why most small businesses.. including my own.. fail so quickly. Honesty does not pay. But I'd rather sleep soundly at night knowing I'm a good man then be a scumbag sleeping on silk sheets gained through deceit, lol; which pretty much assures I'll die poor. |
Also, inflating your player numbers artificially doesn't equate to a real world increase in your bank account. Considering the hardware CCP constantly invests in to maintain its single shard world, the fact that it publishes it's own magazine, it's working on a console shooter to tie in with the EVE world and the size and quality of their expansions...I'd have to say that no matter how many free players they have...they most assuredly have more paying players than COX does.
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No. Just no |
Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
the "heroes" name is a stigma for people in tights. That is what people think this game solely is. Villains ftw, would be better if they rebranded to CoV.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Considering that I was already placing CoX over WoW, population numbers are probably not what makes one game "better" than another in my esteem.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
Except maybe those things don't matter as much to as many people as we'd like to believe.
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If numbers are the concern it would seem that all you have to do is hit on the right magical formula of pleasingly collecting shiny gewgaws that allow you to join a clone army and potentially war on your clone army neighbours.
Perhaps the next Star Wars game will provide the right clone army.
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| Actually, the question was about making COX the TOP MMO...not simply better than WoW. Still an interesting question to discuss though. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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According to the newsletter I just recieved* the active accounts of EvE is over 330K (more than the population of Iceland apparently).|
Originally Posted by Slashman
Last count was around 350K+ I think. It's doing quite well.
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It's quite sad that many MMO companies are not gibing out their 'active account' numbers anymore and the "MMO Charts" websites stopped getting updated.
I remember** from reading that site that MMO populations tend to fall into one of 4 catogories:
1 - Standard pattern: large spike after launch, minor dropoff, followed by a stable, slow decline, possibly with seconday spikes that conencide with the launch of a expansion or similar. Most MMOs (including Cities) fall into this catogary, and are reasonably long lived as a byproduct.
2 - large spike after launch, followed buy a much more major dropoff, possibly followed by a small but stable a stable population, but not enough to sustain the game for a long period of time. These are the MMOs that die.
3 - Huge ongoing upward curve slowly approaching plato over the course of years. This is WoW, it is in a class of it's own, even the other 'big' MMOs (Linage I think is a good example) follow the same pattern as catogary 1, allbeit on a larger scale.
4 - minor launch spike, but no dropoff, and gradual, progressive gain over time. The only MMO i remember** seeing in this catogary was EvE. Which is to say, it's just as much an abberation as WoW.
* Played EvE for 6 months back away back, I still get the news letters. It is a good game, but about as different from CoH as you can be while still being an MMO.
** All from memory here
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Those could be summed up as:|
Originally Posted by Pendix
According to the newsletter I just recieved* the active accounts of EvE is over 330K (more than the population of Iceland apparently).
It's quite sad that many MMO companies are not gibing out their 'active account' numbers anymore and the "MMO Charts" websites stopped getting updated. I remember** from reading that site that MMO populations tend to fall into one of 4 catogories: 1 - Standard pattern: large spike after launch, minor dropoff, followed by a stable, slow decline, possibly with seconday spikes that conencide with the launch of a expansion or similar. Most MMOs (including Cities) fall into this catogary, and are reasonably long lived as a byproduct. 2 - large spike after launch, followed buy a much more major dropoff, possibly followed by a small but stable a stable population, but not enough to sustain the game for a long period of time. These are the MMOs that die. 3 - Huge ongoing upward curve slowly approaching plato over the course of years. This is WoW, it is in a class of it's own, even the other 'big' MMOs (Linage I think is a good example) follow the same pattern as catogary 1, allbeit on a larger scale. 4 - minor launch spike, but no dropoff, and gradual, progressive gain over time. The only MMO i remember** seeing in this catogary was EvE. Which is to say, it's just as much an abberation as WoW. * Played EvE for 6 months back away back, I still get the news letters. It is a good game, but about as different from CoH as you can be while still being an MMO. ** All from memory here |
1: Decent and competent MMO that stays good and improves itself
2: Overhyped MMO that fails to live up to its promises
3: World of Warcraft
4: Cult hit MMO
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Wasn't there something release some time ago (~2-3 years) that showed that CoX had done something incredibly weird to the normal population curve and actually generated an increase in population without releasing a major expansion? This was before AE but after CoV so there wasn't really anything you could explain as a "major expansion" to explain the growth (minor expansions like the Issues that CoX receives or the dungeon/raid additions that WoW gets are designed more to keep current players playing rather than bring in new players). I recall a number of analysts looking at it and going "whu?"
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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
Those could be summed up as:
1: Decent and competent MMO that stays good and improves itself 2: Overhyped MMO that fails to live up to its promises 3: World of Warcraft 4: Cult hit MMO |
I bet we could boost recruitment if ladies got our bump mapping back!
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CoH managed to grow its population post-launch with the free content (i.e. Issues) they were putting out, which wasn't industry standard at the time (nor was it the first MMO to do so, but it did stand out because of it).|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Wasn't there something release some time ago (~2-3 years) that showed that CoX had done something incredibly weird to the normal population curve and actually generated an increase in population without releasing a major expansion? This was before AE but after CoV so there wasn't really anything you could explain as a "major expansion" to explain the growth (minor expansions like the Issues that CoX receives or the dungeon/raid additions that WoW gets are designed more to keep current players playing rather than bring in new players). I recall a number of analysts looking at it and going "whu?"
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In today's market, such free content releases are considered standard, so it isn't something that differentiates CoH/V anymore.
CoH/V active subscriber numbers haven't grown in player size since the post-CoV launch bump though.
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I do remember this being the case. Most MMOs at the time were still fixed firmly on only doing boxed expansions.|
Originally Posted by UnSub
CoH managed to grow its population post-launch with the free content (i.e. Issues) they were putting out, which wasn't industry standard at the time (nor was it the first MMO to do so, but it did stand out because of it).
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In today's market, such free content releases are considered standard, so it isn't something that differentiates CoH/V anymore. CoH/V active subscriber numbers haven't grown in player size since the post-CoV launch bump though. |
I honestly think that those lean years are what kept us from growing(along with poor marketing) more than any 'natural' MMO decline.
A) No street cred
B) No giant spiders
C) No polar bears.
Give CO* Street Cred, Polar Bears, and Giant Spiders and this game will RULE the MMO market!
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
In order for WoW to be better than CoX it would have to severely step up its character creation, lower requirements on travel powers even further, and really work on being a lot less boring overall.
Oh wait, that wasn't the question, was it?
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound