What keeps CoX from being the TOP MMO?
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-03-23 03:33 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'm actually rather tired of people using the 'superhero niche' argument to defend COX. If you make a good game and market it well, the niche hardly matters.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
Superheroes are a niche US market. And on that note, how many CHV players even read superhero comics, let alone current ones?
Also, abysmal advertising/marketing. |
EVE Online is about as niche as you can get. It's a small niche, within a niche. It has more than 3 times our numbers and it started with about 19k players. That wasn't an accident. Nor did it happen because CCP had a huge fanbase before the game was even launched. They took a game that was bug filled and messy at launch, and with no publisher, brought it far past what COX has ever achieved. That should be a smack in the face to us.
COX has spent far too much time hiding behind customization and instanced missions and not enough expanding its core gameplay. I love our costume creator, but you can't build a game off a front loaded feature.
Instanced missions should be the perfect way to deliver many unique forms of gameplay to your players...instead so many of our missions blur into the same static and uninteresting environments, that you eventually stop even caring what map you're on past the fact that you hope this last cave mission doesn't have the 'doughnut room of death'.
I'm hoping to heck that GR really does turn this game around, because its almost painful to me to see such great potential dribbled down the drain. I hope that this lack of more info on GR is hiding a truckload of great stuff, because this game is long past overdue for something awesome. And no, Captain Dynamic(and AE) wasn't it.
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Interestingly enough I don't see sci-fi as a niche, especially with things like Lost, Flashforward, Star Trek and Star wars being INSANELY popular.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
I'm actually rather tired of people using the 'superhero niche' argument to defend COX. If you make a good game and market it well, the niche hardly matters.
EVE Online is about as niche as you can get. It's a small niche, within a niche. It has more than 3 times our numbers and it started with about 19k players. That wasn't an accident. Nor did it happen because CCP had a huge fanbase before the game was even launched. They took a game that was bug filled and messy at launch, and with no publisher, brought it far past what COX has ever achieved. That should be a smack in the face to us. COX has spent far too much time hiding behind customization and instanced missions and not enough expanding its core gameplay. I love our costume creator, but you can't build a game off a front loaded feature. Instanced missions should be the perfect way to deliver many unique forms of gameplay to your players...instead so many of our missions blur into the same static and uninteresting environments, that you eventually stop even caring what map you're on past the fact that you hope this last cave mission doesn't have the 'doughnut room of death'. I'm hoping to heck that GR really does turn this game around, because its almost painful to me to see such great potential dribbled down the drain. I hope that this lack of more info on GR is hiding a truckload of great stuff, because this game is long past overdue for something awesome. And no, Captain Dynamic(and AE) wasn't it. |
Also keep in mind that one of the major reasons that EVE increased in playerbase size is because the players CREATED their own content via pvp focused political battles (there are novel length websites out there that chronicle this.) This is something that this game can NEVER replicate because:
1. pvp is no way near as open ended as in EVE.
2. COH is NOT an open sandboxy game or even sandbox-lite like EVE. Unlike EVE, there are no large sections of the game that large sgs can take over.
Number 2. especially is why EVE's numbers keep going up. The politics and intrigue that the playerbase built up while working within the games stupendously open mechanics is what makes EVE so popular.
The first things to happen for us to replicate that here would be for open world pvp to come to MORE zones than it currently exists (not going to happen EVER) and for sgs to be able to take over and fight for control of parts of the cities. GR may see this, but I don't EVER see this coming to Paragon or the Isles.
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We're more niche than EVE Online. Games where you command your own starfleets are as old as the hills, and with everyone on one server EVE offers an epic PVP experience that is unmatched in any MMO.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
I'm actually rather tired of people using the 'superhero niche' argument to defend COX. If you make a good game and market it well, the niche hardly matters.
EVE Online is about as niche as you can get. It's a small niche, within a niche. It has more than 3 times our numbers and it started with about 19k players. That wasn't an accident. Nor did it happen because CCP had a huge fanbase before the game was even launched. They took a game that was bug filled and messy at launch, and with no publisher, brought it far past what COX has ever achieved. That should be a smack in the face to us. |
Saying EVE is niche is like saying STO is niche.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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I'm not "defending" the game. I want to see it prosper and last. What I'm doing is applying the known fact of superhero comic sales on the global market to the game. I think it's a fair comparison. |
Originally Posted by Slashman
I'm actually rather tired of people using the 'superhero niche' argument to defend COX. If you make a good game and market it well, the niche hardly matters.
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Originally Posted by Slashman
EVE Online is about as niche as you can get. It's a small niche, within a niche. It has more than 3 times our numbers and it started with about 19k players. That wasn't an accident. Nor did it happen because CCP had a huge fanbase before the game was even launched. They took a game that was bug filled and messy at launch, and with no publisher, brought it far past what COX has ever achieved. That should be a smack in the face to us.
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Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
I blame it all on the inexplicable failure of the original development team to establish a ten-year track record of industry-leading games to secure an order of magnitude more funding.
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Originally Posted by Lucky
Asians, they got more population then us north americans
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Sorry, who?
Thelonious Monk
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The population os Asia is quite a bit bigger than the populaiton of America, so any game that is more tuned in to Asian pop culture rather than Western pop culture will automatically have a larger interested market.
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Sorry, who?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
If I had to guess, I'd say some of it's semi-uniqueness is part of the problem. It doesn't have a lot in the way of endgame raids like most MMOs do (I consider this a plus). But the biggest point for me, and I honestly do not know of even ONE other MMO that has this, is that it's possible for the soloer to get any uber loot they want without ever having to group to do so.
To be fair, maybe there are a few badges or accolades that require a team, but I'm referring to the top recipes/enhancements. Because of (IMO) moronic mechanisms like bind on acquire, no other MMO, and I'm mean none, seem to allow for this. It is this utter solo-friendliness that keeps me coming back to CoH time and again. Although I also feel one man's plus might be another man's minus. If you're the type of player who loves grouping and doing quests that cannot be done without, CoH might be a bit thin in the content for you.
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That's not an opinion; it's a well documented fact that bind on acquire is moronic. |
Originally Posted by TheSwamper
Because of (IMO) moronic mechanisms like bind on acquire
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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I'm not trying to say that we can become WoW or EVE. But I honestly think that this game has suffered from underdevelopment. It's not about duplicating EVE's open world PVP(which really isn't all there is to EVE) or even about being a sandbox game.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
I'm not "defending" the game. I want to see it prosper and last. What I'm doing is applying the known fact of superhero comic sales on the global market to the game. I think it's a fair comparison.
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I honestly don't think that the fact that superheroes aren't as popular as fantasy is the major reason behind our numbers. The major criticisms that I've heard leveled at this game from both reviewers, and past players as well as people on game forums all over the internet do not include the fact that superheroes aren't fun or popular. I'm not saying that's not a factor for some people. But if superheroes really were that unpopular, why did Arkham Asylum do well? Could it be that was just a great game with a lot of good marketing behind it?
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| EVE really has that many players?! This is the "spreadsheets online" game, right? |
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So then my last girlfriend...?
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
That's not an opinion; it's a well documented fact that bind on acquire is moronic.
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1) CCP encourages people to buy multiple accounts. Multiple accounts is the standard way to play Eve and is far more widespread than in any other MMO I've played. How many unique players does it really have?|
Originally Posted by Slashman
EVE Online is about as niche as you can get. It's a small niche, within a niche. It has more than 3 times our numbers and it started with about 19k players. That wasn't an accident. Nor did it happen because CCP had a huge fanbase before the game was even launched. They took a game that was bug filled and messy at launch, and with no publisher, brought it far past what COX has ever achieved. That should be a smack in the face to us.
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2) Map design, character design and animation, and art assests in CoH are at a level of complexity, detail, and quality that Eve hasn't ever or will ever approach. Actually, the universe of Eve is pretty simplistic and dull. You have a few stations, jump gates, asteroids, and ships and that's about it. There isn't much to interact with.
3) Eve PvE is essentially instanced. PvE storyline is more or less non-existant compared to what CoH offers. Eve is all about PvP, but PvP is barriered off to new players by the real-time skill training system and momentum of the verteran players and corporations.
Hardly a smack in the face. The scope of Eve is smaller and not as well executed. The only thing that stands out is the player market system, and the vet players are working hard on breaking that.
Back on topic, CoH would require lewtz progression and end-game raiding progression to draw bigger numbers. The big carrot. The epeen competition. That's not the game I want to play though so I'm pretty happy with the direction they've taken CoH so far.
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This is empirically true. We don't know where the game would be today if it had a fully staffed dev team these past six years and they released three meaty Issues every year with at least one full new zone, new enemy groups, new sets, new tile sets, new play styles, etc. I imagine it would be in much better shape, but we don't know. As it was, the dev team was gutted shortly after CoV launched, so we're lucky to still be going.
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Originally Posted by Slashman
But I honestly think that this game has suffered from underdevelopment.
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
I've played WoW one week (maybe even not one full week) and CoX 6 years.
To me, CoX is better than MMO or any other MMO I've played (CO, STO and Guild Wars)
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^^This|
Originally Posted by Slashman
I'm actually rather tired of people using the 'superhero niche' argument to defend COX. If you make a good game and market it well, the niche hardly matters.
EVE Online is about as niche as you can get. It's a small niche, within a niche. It has more than 3 times our numbers and it started with about 19k players. That wasn't an accident. Nor did it happen because CCP had a huge fanbase before the game was even launched. They took a game that was bug filled and messy at launch, and with no publisher, brought it far past what COX has ever achieved. That should be a smack in the face to us. COX has spent far too much time hiding behind customization and instanced missions and not enough expanding its core gameplay. I love our costume creator, but you can't build a game off a front loaded feature. Instanced missions should be the perfect way to deliver many unique forms of gameplay to your players...instead so many of our missions blur into the same static and uninteresting environments, that you eventually stop even caring what map you're on past the fact that you hope this last cave mission doesn't have the 'doughnut room of death'. I'm hoping to heck that GR really does turn this game around, because its almost painful to me to see such great potential dribbled down the drain. I hope that this lack of more info on GR is hiding a truckload of great stuff, because this game is long past overdue for something awesome. And no, Captain Dynamic(and AE) wasn't it. |
You sir are wise, sir.
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...I'm supposed to choose ONE???
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
And why, might I ask...did you choose your server?
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Um... I'm on Virtue and Freedom because I don't enjoy soloing like I used to and it's just easier to team on those servers.|
Originally Posted by Westley
So... you're not going there because there's lots of other people there... you're going there because there's lots of other people like you there?
Got it! |
If Protector wasn't a ghost town I'd still be primarily playing there.
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Did I say one?
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Originally Posted by Westley
...I'm supposed to choose ONE???
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I play on all the servers, when I play. So I guess I'll try to answer....
"Why did I choose to play on all the servers?"
Because the game is identical on all of them. And I can get a full team any time I want to on all of them.
Or I can solo on all of them if I choose. It's nice!
I think the lack of a major license is another thing. People who go see Batman or Spider-Man want to either play as them, play with them, or at least play in the same setting as them.
I love CoH. But it does have a few things working against it.
1) I never even heard of CoH untill I saw it at Wal-Mart. So it's advertising isn't that great. That was at the start of i3 (been here since).
2) Alot of END Game for CoH, is get to 50, reroll toon. Alot of people in this game don't like to play their 50's. Seeing as how you don't need IO sets to beat anything in this game, they don't see a need to make the OMG I can DO THIS build.
3) System Requirements. WoW came out after CoH, and had less system requirements than CoH.
4) Open world. Face it, this is going to be something people like.
Now let's look at what CoH is marketed as...create your own superhero just like in the comics!
Yeah. Okay, there are the let's be silly all the time superhero comics, that would do such things. But...
How often do you see the Avengers/X-Men/Fantastic Four using the trolley?
We've gotten more costumization, but we're still very much limited in the hero we can build.
How many people have said "I want to make a DP/SR scrapper, only to have devs say no, and part of the community scoff at them?
Face it, alot of superheros in comics can fall into having some sort of Defense powerset when it comes to what they can do? Now I'm not saying they'd have as well of mez protection as Defense sets have in this game either...but it's just something that continues to work against it.
I've seen plenty of people say "I don't feel super" in this game. Some leave, some keep trying, some give up and realize they're just not going to get that feeling.
That isn't to say they can't, but it requires alot of work to get the "OMG! I feel like a real superhero! I can kick serious butt!" <.< "Hope I'm not late for the tram! Oh gawd I am! I better run!"
CO doesn't get it right either though. DCUO doesnt look like its going to get it right either. So, I think CoH is safe.
But put all that aside, CoH does have one thing going for it! All I ever hear is CoH has the best RP community. Right there is a reason for others to come to CoH!
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For a long time, NCSoft specifically included the number of CoH/V subscribers in their quarterly reports, not just the income from the game. According to those numbers, CoH/V has never exceeded 200,000 concurrent subscriptions, and the most recent report put us around 140,000 IIRC. If you extrapolate from income with the most recent reports (which don't include subscriber numbers any more), our current playerbase is somewhere around 130,000.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You know this for a fact?
How many people play the game that never registered to the forums at all? I personally know at least 10. I'm pretty sure that most of the people who post on the forums know at least a couple people that aren't registered. Because you don't HAVE to register to the forums in order to play the game, you know. I know a guy that played for 2 years before he even knew the forums existed. The number of people registered to the forums does not necessarily reflect the number of people playing the game. So, there are 165k registered forum users, and that means that the population has NEVER been higher than that? I say there is no way you could possibly know that unless you have access to NCSoft's database....which I would be willing to bet you do not. Quarterly reports aren't even that reliable. They show how much money the game has made over the quarter. People that paid their subscription up for a year 6 months ago aren't contributing to that number, they contributed to the report 2 quarters before. |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Even if every person in EVE had 2 accounts(which I don't think is the case), they would still dwarf our numbers.|
Originally Posted by CrushingAbyss
1) CCP encourages people to buy multiple accounts. Multiple accounts is the standard way to play Eve and is far more widespread than in any other MMO I've played. How many unique players does it really have?
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| 2) Map design, character design and animation, and art assests in CoH are at a level of complexity, detail, and quality that Eve hasn't ever or will ever approach. Actually, the universe of Eve is pretty simplistic and dull. You have a few stations, jump gates, asteroids, and ships and that's about it. There isn't much to interact with. |
What type of interactions do you expect to have with objects in space exactly??? I'm a little confused here.
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| 3) Eve PvE is essentially instanced. PvE storyline is more or less non-existant compared to what CoH offers. |
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| Eve is all about PvP, but PvP is barriered off to new players by the real-time skill training system and momentum of the verteran players and corporations. |
Also, one of the richest people I knew in EVE never PVP'ed at all. She was total carebear.
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| Hardly a smack in the face. The scope of Eve is smaller and not as well executed. The only thing that stands out is the player market system, and the vet players are working hard on breaking that. |
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| Back on topic, CoH would require lewtz progression and end-game raiding progression to draw bigger numbers. The big carrot. The epeen competition. That's not the game I want to play though so I'm pretty happy with the direction they've taken CoH so far. |
(IMO) CoX can be a whole lot more...If they were DCU or Marvel. Those two 800 pound gorillas sandwhich CoX as far as limitations go! a poster above me touched on the very fact that "Batman"tm. and "Captain America"tm. wannabees cant come close because of infringement.
I would've loved to travel to a zone....um lets say Japan, the U.S.S.R. or Merry ole' England. They have been touched upon in CoX lore and it would have made since to implement those zone types in game to give it more diversity and a "MORE" interesting setting to the stories.(IMO) of course!
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Me: From a certain point of view?
Prometheus: You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on your point of view.
Me: You're right about that. Power Blast is very pretty from a certain point of view. But that point of view is not head-on. <Kaboom> - Arcanaville.
A lot of people play video games, but only some video game players play MMOs. (Niche 1)
A lot of people play MMOs, but only some MMO players will try a superhero MMO. (More specialized niche 2)
Of the players who will try a superhero MMO, only some of them will try a completely unknown property like City of Heroes. (Even more specialized niche 3)
And for that matter, superhero comics, the stuff all this material is based off of, only sell moderately well in the US. Sure Warner Bros plans on using DC superhero movies to take the place of Harry Potter, and Marvel has all their Avengers movies in the works, but there are still a lot of folks who expect the general public to turn against the movies, like any minute now. Especially once/if all the B, C, and D list character movies start hitting theatres.
Don't get me wrong, I for one would love to see high quality superhero movies become a staple of American pop culture, but I'm not holding my breathe on that.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.