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Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
This thread is just all over the place in the topic spectrum...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
By my reckoning, the issues with the largest or most visible extensions to the game or gameplay are:
Issue 4: PvP Issue 6: Bases and CoV-related Issue 9: Invention System Issue 11: Real Numbers, Weapon Customization, XP smoothing Issue 14: Architect Issue 16: Power Customization (honorable mention: Issue 3: epic archs, EPPs, global chat, notoriety) The Issues that introduced the largest performance reduction changes (at least in scope) were: Issue 5: Global Defense Reductions Issue 6: Enhancement Diversification Issue 13: PvP diminishing returns I don't see the pattern myself. If someone has a version of the release data that supports the theory that the devs make a conscious effort to release performance reducing changes with high profile releases to reduce their psychological impact, I'd like to see that. |
. They have spent considerable time on DR. The numbers you are sticking to if transferred to pve are the pvp values so all that time has been relevant. You can't argue it both ways. At the very least the time spent has been a test bed for a switch of the system over to pve and has been valuable to the purpose. Like I said earlier, I think DR will be implemented in some form with GR, you don't. Is there anything else to say?I'm excited to see the PS/NC valuation of this product when the time comes.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
The largest of both categories is i6. By far. The next largest content update by a large margin will be GR. I happen to think the next largest performance decrease with be GR as well. GDR dropped a mere 2 months before CoV hit. I have also heavily considered the possibility of DR coming just prior to Going Rogue. If issues came more often I would have gone with that. The important part is being able to bury it underneath a mountain of positive information. That worked for GDN (as well as possible) cause CoV was literally on the doorstep begging for attention. If an issue is released just prior to GR I'll be watching it very closely.
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Additionally, the only possible way to implement DR is with the pvp values. That is written in stone outside the paragon office I'm sure . They have spent considerable time on DR. The numbers you are sticking to if transferred to pve are the pvp values so all that time has been relevant. You can't argue it both ways. At the very least the time spent has been a test bed for a switch of the system over to pve and has been valuable to the purpose. Like I said earlier, I think DR will be implemented in some form with GR, you don't. Is there anything else to say?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I am by no means a history buff, so I can't really give you a good number on this one. I watched (well, listened to while I played) a documentary about them, which explained that the Mayan calendar pointed to many dates as a possible end of the world, many of which have already passed. The 2012 year predicted is, I believe, an extrapolation of the way they measured time, the state of celestial bodies and their movement and the Mayan interpretation of what those meant. I picked that particular date both because it's at least slightly famous, and because it belongs to a civilization that DID see the end of their world already. I wanted to have at least a little credibility
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We get it, Frosti. You're still nursing a grudge over adjustments made more than three years ago and it annoys you that we're a) not all as upset about it as you and b) not paranoid that It'll Happen Again, so you're bent on spreading a little fear and loathing. Very nice.
Try this, it might help with your lingering ED injuries:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
We get it, Frosti. You're still nursing a grudge over adjustments made more than three years ago and it annoys you that we're a) not all as upset about it as you and b) not paranoid that It'll Happen Again, so you're bent on spreading a little fear and loathing. Very nice.
Try this, it might help with your lingering ED injuries: |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Seriously, man, you're operating off hurt feelings here. Give it a rest. |
| Do you realise that this makes absolutely no sense? Time and time and time again the developers have said, confirmed and reaffirmed that 1) PvP will not affect PvE and 2) the PvP game is vastly different from the PvE game, which is why powers are coded with two effects, one for PvP, one for PvE. Have you any concept how little sense it makes from ANY standpoint to just plop down the PvP numbers in PvE and cross their fingers despite it being well proven PvE works nothing like PvP? The balance of power is simply not comparable in the slightest. |
| And, really, look at it logically. People complained the game was too easy, and the developers responded by making extra-hard encounters like the Recluse SF, the Statesman TF, the Imperious TF and now the 5th Column TFs, not to mention tweaking the Hamidon several times. It seems to me THAT has been their answer to the call for harder content - to plain old make harder content. What kind of sense does it make to design this overpowered Reichsman and then turn around and slap diminishing returns anyway? |
| Seriously, you can claim we just don't know until you turn blue, but your tone and conviction contradicts your words. You KNOW what's going to happen, and there is no convincing you. Well, good luck with that. I'm still waiting for 2012. |
I think Frosticus is looking at the wrong pattern.
Try instead:
Issue 3: Nerfed regen and perma-unstoppable
Issue 4: Nerfed regen again, and added travel power suppression
Issue 5: Global defense reduction, which nerfed regen
Issue 6: ED, which nerfed regen.
Clearly, GR will see regen nerfed again.
Seriously, though, Issues 1-6 saw a significant amount of balancing to the game, with the largest amount of balancing in issues 5-6. Including ED in CoV was more a matter of continuing balance changes. Issues 7-16 have not seen anything of that scale. Individual powersets have been reduced or increased in power, some activations were normalized (maybe all, I didn't keep up), and powersets have been added and proliferated to give us a much larger pool of potential power combinations.
I think the only major rebalancing happened in PVP recently, and if Frosticus' theory were true, it'd be saved for Going Rogue.
Anyway, none of us know if there'll be buffs or nerfs in store with GR's release, but I think that Frosticus is looking a bit too hard for the possibility.
They change stuff they don't like all the time, and to me it seems ridiculous to picture them sitting around plotting to time their nerfs to some kind of Content News Cycle, trying to camouflage them in the middle of a busy release.
It seems more reasonable to me that they work on junk, and once they get it the way they want it they add it to the next patch rolling.
I'm not philosophically opposed to conspiracy theories, but they have to make sense.
There's just no reason for the devs to 'hide' nerfs- we're going to notice them anyway, we're going to freak out about them anyway, and they're going to make those changes regardless of our opinions or reactions.
I don't think GoRo is coming with a whole heap of nerfs riding shotgun - the aim of GoRo is to attract new players, not drive them off. I'm expecting the new powersets to be considered overpowered, however - that's been a trend. Whether or not it is a case of the new shiny being considered overpowered because it is the new shiny or because it is actually overpowered is another issue.
I'm more interested in how the new content is going to intersect / interact with the old and if any 'new policy' decisions trump any 'old policy' decisions ala badges. Plus the actual implementation of the faction system / side switching. The fact that only lvls 1 - 20 were covered within GoRo at this early stage is an issue - although I can assume that more is coming, my time watching MMOs has taught me that what is intended often doesn't make it live, or that it is very possible for accurate statements to be read more broadly than the devs intend (e.g. "The war walls are coming down!").
For instance, having 5 zones to cover lvl 1 - 20 is certainly possible - a starting zone (lvl 1 - 9), a low-level loyalist zone (lvl 10 - 20), a low-level resistance zone (lvl 10 - 20), a mid-to-high lvl zone for those who wish to shift from / to hero (lvl 21 - 50) and a mid-to-high lvl zone for those wanting to shift to / from villain (lvl 21 - 50). There may even be a neutral zone.
Until we see it in detail, it is pre-emptive to call it too far either way. I was disappointed in the info that came out of HeroCon because I thought there'd be more of it and the lvl 1 - 20 content bit stood out as a red flag to me.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Because of the massive divide that has been introduced into the game and because of the massive divide in forcemultiplication? In other words, because for certain arrangements the game is still far too easy. Brokenly so...
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| There's nothing to be accomplished from this. I'm either right and I'll be sure to let you know when the time comes. Or I'm wrong and I'll be sure to let you know at the time. I'm much more indifferent about it than you realize. I just stated what I think is going to come with GR, it's mostly you guys that are upset about it. |
| You're an idiot. Frost is pretty reasonable. I don't think DR is coming, but you look like a tool with what you posted. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Oh, and you'll be happy to know I got neg-repped for replying to you. More specifically:
Thank you, stranger. I'm glad to disagreeing with people is still grounds for negative rep. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
So, essentially you have a statistical precedent of one, is that how I should take it?
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Edit: you have your rep disabled, you can still collect rep?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And for what it's worth, I haven't neg-repped you. We disagree, but I don't see that as grounds for vindictive action, and despite what it may look like, I actually DO want to engage in reasonable debate. It's actually interesting.
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Originally Posted by Ignatz
It's unfortunate how many people don't understand this. In general of course. But you specifically as well...especially after reading the majority of your 23k+ posts.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I gotta say, Going Rogue looks pretty cool (especially the graphics upgrade) and I'll be picking it up. On the other hand, though, I can't blame people for being a bit disappointed with what they've seen so far. Consider simply this: our last (and first) expansion granted us an entirely new 1-50 experience (okay, 1-40 to start with), 5 new archetypes, around 12 entirely new powersets (Elec for Brutes came a little later) and many more that were reworked/created from existing powers (___ Assault for Doms), PVP zones, et. al. Compared with announced 1-20 content (do we NEED more content for a level range you can get through in two days, even if you aren't trying really hard?), no new archetypes and two powersets, it's entirely understandable for some people to be disappointed.
Again, I am excited about Going Rogue, primarily because Praetoria looks really cool, though for me the whole side switching thing is a bit of a novelty and I'll likely use it mostly to get out of the more annoying redside content.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
Well see, the difference is that in a song, or a painting or a movie, art is used to convey a message of some kind; often personal, sometimes politcial, but always very important. At least to the person who made it.
Now videogames came from a different angle from that. The main point of a game was not to invoke an emotion or convey an important message. It was something else entirely. I'll admit that with videogames, it has already begun moving away from that. But like I was trying to say before, I don't think it's exactly there yet. Now a good analogy for us here might be in comic books. They were certainly not considered to be serious art to any degree! But I'm certain anyone who's read them in the last 30 or 40 years would beg to differ. Now here we got an MMO that embraces the spirit of the superhero genre that has been the mainstay of comic books for so long. Just one look in the thread about Going Rogue on the heated philosophical discussions over the true meaning of morality will show that the makers of this game have kind of touched on something. I don't know if that's really by design or not, or if us posters have just gone off on some wild tangent! A game like this one is enteraining to be sure, there are no doubts there! But what's is ultimate message? Good always triumphs over evil? Be careful what you wish for? Sacrifices must sometimes be made for the greater good? If you think this game is art, I'd like to know why you think so. No trite or sarcastic responses, pretty please. I'm quite serious. Why do you think it is? My mind is certainly open to the possibility. |
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Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
I gotta say, Going Rogue looks pretty cool (especially the graphics upgrade) and I'll be picking it up. On the other hand, though, I can't blame people for being a bit disappointed with what they've seen so far. Consider simply this: our last (and first) expansion granted us an entirely new 1-50 experience (okay, 1-40 to start with), 5 new archetypes, around 12 entirely new powersets (Elec for Brutes came a little later) and many more that were reworked/created from existing powers (___ Assault for Doms), PVP zones, et. al. Compared with announced 1-20 content (do we NEED more content for a level range you can get through in two days, even if you aren't trying really hard?), no new archetypes and two powersets, it's entirely understandable for some people to be disappointed.
Again, I am excited about Going Rogue, primarily because Praetoria looks really cool, though for me the whole side switching thing is a bit of a novelty and I'll likely use it mostly to get out of the more annoying redside content. |
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Am I the only person that sees the comparison between a product that was in development for 2ish years and a product that will have been in development about a year as inherently flawed?
I mean, of course CoV has more. They worked on it longer, and had more people doing it. Why bother comparing the two? |
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Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
...Because they're both paid expansions for the same game? Why wouldn't anyone compare them? Apples and apples.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Considering how light everything has been these days I would be shocked if there was really that much extra stuff to do. Personally I feel they have only got one chance at this otherwise thats pretty much it for me. The past 6 issues have been garbage, I say this because I know the devs can do alot better than this.
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...no, more like apples and oranges. CoV was an entirely independent game at the time it was announced. CoH: GR is an expansion.
Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
...Because they're both paid expansions for the same game? Why wouldn't anyone compare them? Apples and apples.
