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Well put. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
While you probably expect me to say it, I'll say it anyway: Never has happened, and from how things look, never will happen. I LOVE Oranbega. It's probably the coolest tileset of them all. The only tilesets I actively hate are the tilesets I hated the first time I saw them, which are largely restricted to the pink caves and their derivatives, like the snake caves and the Cimeroran ruins. I disliked them from the first day I set foot in the Shadow Shard for their blandness and tubular design, and I dislike them now for the exact same reason.
You know what the funny thing is? I never stop being impressed. I have, for instance, a few characters I made expressly because of how their costumes looked, and every time I log them into the game, I can't stop giggling like an idiot, thinking "Man, I can't believe this is really happening!" I love these characters, and I can never get enough of them. EVER. I don't get bored of good graphics. I can look at them day after day after day and the fine details and cool little touches will never stop impressing me. For instance, even to this day I still adore all the care an attention the Necromancy upgrade has put into it. All of those whirling, spinning red thingies, all the little scurrying worms and beetles... I love it! |
I'm very much the same. I think some of my greatest joys in this game come from finding that new costume piece/color combo that makes the look just right. Now, I have the power-effects to play with too...
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Bit of both, but largely it's the style that makes the game look so bad.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's not graphics, that's style.
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Have to agree with UnSub on this one. One of the problems with CoV, in addition to not offering many differences from CoH (in the opinion of some reviewers), was that it was also the herald of ED. The negative feedback from the player base was obviously noticed by outsiders, game news sites, and potential players, which probably softened the potential new subs that Cryptic and NCSoft hoped to gain from CoV's launch.|
Originally Posted by UnSub
I don't think GoRo is coming with a whole heap of nerfs riding shotgun - the aim of GoRo is to attract new players, not drive them off.
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That being said, I don't think NCSoft will make the same mistake twice (although Cryptic seemingly didn't learn from their mistake with the "purple patch" during the Champions Online launch). There might be some adjustments here and there to certain powers, as is the case with most regular Issue releases, but becuase Going Rogue will be one of those devices that will be used to try and attract new subs, I don't see any sweeping or overly general nerfs, because they'd be counterproductive to those goals.
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It could be more technical, but I thought the colors worked better |
Originally Posted by Hallowed
Brilliant.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well, be fair, Lemur, that particular bit of marketing department hogwash meant nothing at the time, much less now. |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
So the fact that one was marketed not as an expansion but as it's own game that happened to connect to this one at certain points means nothing?
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CoV was what, 30 dollars at launch? And this was, of course, in 2005, when CoH was still fresh and had a higher price point. If this expansion is the same price, or even 20, accounting for the fact that CoH is getting up there in years, why shouldn't people expect a lot of stuff? Standalone or not, CoV set the precedent for expansions in CoH. Following it up with an expansion that has a lot less content is bound to disappoint people.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
So the fact that one was marketed not as an expansion but as it's own game that happened to connect to this one at certain points means nothing? Even though they eventually merged them, Posi has always made it clear, as recently as last week at Hero Con, that there's a difference between an 'expanshalone' and an expansion.
They're different products with different scope and design goals. Finding one lacking because it doesn't have as much as the other is specious reasoning. |
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I read that as a compliment Sam. You are by far, one of the most reasonable people posting to these forums that I have ever come across.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
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One was a stand alone expansion which was suppose to have enough content to function on its own. The other is an expansion branching off from the whole which does not stand by itself.
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Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
...Because they're both paid expansions for the same game? Why wouldn't anyone compare them? Apples and apples.
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I don't need people to keep explaining this to me. Open your ears and your eyes and listen to what I am saying. I am not saying this for my own benefit, I am trying to get across to you the feelings that OTHER PEOPLE may have. I am not ARGUING about it, simply giving some explanation or clarification. If you want to tell me I'm wrong, go right ahead, but it doesn't matter if you think I'm wrong or if you think people who are disappointed are "wrong". What matters is that they're disappointed, and I am just trying to help those of you who are upset try to understand why.
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Originally Posted by Mr. NoPants
One was a stand alone expansion which was suppose to have enough content to function on its own. The other is an expansion branching off from the whole which does not stand by itself.
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I don't get the point of being disappointed with information on a project as far away from release as GR is. |
Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
On the other hand, though, I can't blame people for being a bit disappointed with what they've seen so far.
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Is there a ton of stuff they aren't telling us yet? Yes, because that's how things work these days. They tell us as little as they can get away with at first and gradually release more details as release draws near, and even then keep some stuff back so the product can be perceived as over-delivering instead of under-delivering.
Any 'disappointment' felt by a segment of the customer base indicates either a profound misunderstanding of modern promotional realities, or a comically unrealistic set of expectations.
In either case, it can safely be ignored as misguided and irrelevant.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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The fact it's being released will disappoint some. Some will go "Ohh I don't see GR yet it must be dead" the day before open beta. Some will say it diminishes CoV for being better, some will say it fell short by having less. No mater what they do people will be disappointed and complain. I'm surprised I haven't seen any complaints about having power customization in the creator slowing down the process yet.|
Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
CoV was what, 20 dollars at launch? And this was, of course, in 2005, when CoH was still fresh and had a higher price point. If this expansion is the same price, why shouldn't people expect the same amount of stuff? Standalone or not, CoV set the precedent for expansions in CoH. Following it up with an expansion that has a lot less content is bound to disappoint people.
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GR having less then CoV is the logical expectation after being told it isn't a stand alone game.
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No, I get that. But think about this. CoV had over 10 new powersets introduced, and I mean, entirely new, and then a bunch more that were created using powers from existing sets (the Dominator assault sets). Going Rogue has 2. Could there be new powersets announced for it? I guess. Do I think there will be? Probably not. Does that upset me personally? Not really, I think Dual Pistols looks cool though I would have preferred just about anything over Demon Summoning, but that is of course personal preference, since I don't play Masterminds and I'm not into the occult. If they announce one more power set, say... Electric Control... I'd be a very, very happy camper. Again, I am totally going to get Going Rogue, and will love the crap out of the graphic upgrade and the ability to move my characters around, I am just explaining that I totally understand people who feel disappointed.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I don't get the point of being disappointed with information on a project as far away from release as GR is.
Is there a ton of stuff they aren't telling us yet? Yes, because that's how things work these days. They tell us as little as they can get away with at first and gradually release more details as release draws near, and even then keep some stuff back so the product can be perceived as over-delivering instead of under-delivering. Any 'disappointment' felt by a segment of the customer base indicates either a profound misunderstanding of modern promotional realities, or a comically unrealistic set of expectations. In either case, it can safely be ignored as misguided and irrelevant. |
So, you don't understand it. That's fine. But I think everyone is entitled to express certain disappointments as much as you are entitled to express excitement. And I don't think it's fair for such expression of disappointment to be ignored or thought of as misguided. Everyone has opinions, and just because not everyone who plays this game is a blind fanboy sheep who never gets frustrated or disappointed with the direction the game's updates are taking, doesn't invalidate their opinion.
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CoV was a game, GR is an expansion.|
Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
No, I get that. But think about this. CoV had over 10 new powersets introduced, and I mean, entirely new, and then a bunch more that were created using powers from existing sets (the Dominator assault sets). Going Rogue has 2.
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The two carry entirely different sets of expectations.
Silly people are entitled to freak out because an expansion delivers a different level of content than a game, and everyone else is entitled to ignore their meaningless complaints.
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| So, you don't understand it. That's fine. |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
These forums are so crazy. Instead of everyone complaining about every little thing, like most MMO forums, everyone defends everything the devs do so vehemently that they are unwilling to see things from anyone else's perspective. It's a nice change of pace, the positivity and support for the devs, I mean, but it gets annoying in situations like this, where it is oft taken to the extreme.
I am just envisioning a scenario. Late 2010, Hero Con. Going Rogue was a massive success, so work begins on another expansion. Positron gets up on stage: "We're proud to announce City of Heroes: Bag of Crap™ as our next paid expansion. New features include poo-themed costumes and a power that lets you leave a sack of dog crap at the foot of a door when you click on it. This dog crap will summon enemies from the door, who then step in the crap and suffer debilitating knockdown and damage resistance debuff effects. We intend for this to replace all instanced missions. City of Heroes: Bag of Crap™ will retail for $19.95 and will be released around Q3 2011." Those in attendance at Hero Con go wild, and people start reserving Poo-themed names on their servers, waiting for the expansion to be released. People who have played the game since launch head to the forums to express their disappointment with the obviously ridiculous new expansion that was just announced, and are neg-repped to death and shot down by the forum community, who believe that anyone who doesn't absolutely love everything about City of Heroes: Bag of Crap™ is irrelevant and their opinion, invalidated.
Funny as that is, it's not that hard to believe for someone who's been lurking these forums for a long time...
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I believe the effect you're groping for there is reductio ad absurdum, but all you've actually achieved is the absurdum part.
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Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
Funny as that is, it's not that hard to believe for someone who's been lurking these forums for a long time...
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Can you say exaggeration?
Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
These forums are so crazy. Instead of everyone complaining about every little thing, like most MMO forums, everyone defends everything the devs do so vehemently that they are unwilling to see things from anyone else's perspective. It's a nice change of pace, the positivity and support for the devs, I mean, but it gets annoying in situations like this, where it is oft taken to the extreme.
I am just envisioning a scenario. Late 2010, Hero Con. Going Rogue was a massive success, so work begins on another expansion. Positron gets up on stage: "We're proud to announce City of Heroes: Bag of Crap as our next paid expansion. New features include poo-themed costumes and a power that lets you leave a sack of dog crap at the foot of a door when you click on it. This dog crap will summon enemies from the door, who then step in the crap and suffer debilitating knockdown and damage resistance debuff effects. We intend for this to replace all instanced missions. City of Heroes: Bag of Crap will retail for $19.95 and will be released around Q3 2011." Those in attendance at Hero Con go wild, and people start reserving Poo-themed names on their servers, waiting for the expansion to be released. People who have played the game since launch head to the forums to express their disappointment with the obviously ridiculous new expansion that was just announced, and are neg-repped to death and shot down by the forum community, who believe that anyone who doesn't absolutely love everything about City of Heroes: Bag of Crap is irrelevant and their opinion, invalidated.
Funny as that is, it's not that hard to believe for someone who's been lurking these forums for a long time...
Go look it up in a dictionary! It's a fun word! Exaggeration!
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See I wanted to give him a link to an article that describes that fallacy, but I thought it'd be too much for the poor guy to handle.
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
I believe the effect you're groping for there is reductio ad absurdum, but all you've actually achieved is the absurdum part.
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I'm not arguing, just stating my opinion. Maybe you don't notice it, but I do. Anyone who expresses any disappointment about anything; new issues, new expansions, whatever, is immediately shot down on these forums. That's not helpful to the game in the long run.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
I believe the effect you're groping for there is reductio ad absurdum, but all you've actually achieved is the absurdum part.
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Yes, let's all talk about classical debate techniques instead of the topic at hand. A classic maneuver on these forums that I've seen used countless times in some bizarre effort to try and show everyone what an intellectual you are. And then, neg rep me and tell me to get out and call me stupid. That will teach me to express a differing opinion, or rather, simply to express how I can see things from a differing opinion, won't it? |
Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
See I wanted to give him a link to an article that describes that fallacy, but I thought it'd be too much for the poor guy to handle. |
See you in game.
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From the looks of it if anyone expresses any agreement about anything and tries to stay positive is immediately shot down by doomsayers. Biased much?
Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
I'm not arguing, just stating my opinion. Maybe you don't notice it, but I do. Anyone who expresses any disappointment about anything; new issues, new expansions, whatever, is immediately shot down on these forums. That's not helpful to the game in the long run.
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I neg-repped you? xD
Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
Yes, let's all talk about classical debate techniques instead of the topic at hand. A classic maneuver on these forums that I've seen used countless times in some bizarre effort to try and show everyone what an intellectual you are. And then, neg rep me and tell me to get out and call me stupid. That will teach me to express a differing opinion, or rather, simply to express how I can see things from a differing opinion, won't it?
See you in game.
I should go change my account password...
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Staying positive is one thing. Telling people who disagree with you or who are disappointed by some things that are announced that their opinions "don't matter" is not staying positive, it's being totalitarian.
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Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
From the looks of it if anyone expresses any agreement about anything and tries to stay positive is immediately shot down by doomsayers. Biased much? |
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I don't remember ever doing that. But I do believe that opinions don't matter in a debate over something, such as the earlier debate over whether or not games are artforms. I think you should go research some before accusing people.
Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
Staying positive is one thing. Telling people who disagree with you or who are disappointed by some things that are announced that their opinions "don't matter" is not staying positive, it's being totalitarian.
No one here stated that those who thing GR will be a "Bag of Crap" are stupid or their opinions are worthless. If they did, then they have invalidated each and every single opinion/argument they've brought to the table by refusing to listen to the opposing side.
I really don't give a crap about whether or not you like GR or not. But if you come to the forums to discuss whether or not you like GR and try to announce your opinion, expect others to announce their opinions as well and question yours. That is true for both sides of this "argument". If everyone always agreed on all things, the term "debate" would be meaningless.
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I did not say Going Rogue was a bag of crap, nor did I suggest anyone else thought so. I was merely expressing how I view many of the elitist members of this forum, who have a tendency to defend the game and the developers even to the point of pretense, and give a ridiculous example in which that kind of attitude would be extremely unhelpful. I did not make any accusations, nor did I ever say I was disappointed personally with this game. You crack a joke about my supposed inability to comprehend classical debate techniques (something I admittedly have no interest in), but your inability to even read my previous posts in full before commenting on them is obvious. I did not come here to debate. I did not come here to make accusations. I have not done either, at least not intentionally. I was merely trying to offer another perspective to those who are unable to comprehend the idea of disappointment with the new expansion and its announced features. And someone DID say that the opinions of anyone who is disappointed with GR's announced features should be "disregarded", in fact it was on the very last page. What was also on the very last page was a post by me, in which I expressed my own personal excitement over some of Going Rogue's features.
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Originally Posted by Bright Shadow
I don't remember ever doing that. But I do believe that opinions don't matter in a debate over something, such as the earlier debate over whether or not games are artforms. I think you should go research some before accusing people. No one here stated that those who thing GR will be a "Bag of Crap" are stupid or their opinions are worthless. If they did, then they have invalidated each and every single opinion/argument they've brought to the table by refusing to listen to the opposing side. I really don't give a crap about whether or not you like GR or not. But if you come to the forums to discuss whether or not you like GR and try to announce your opinion, expect others to announce their opinions as well and question yours. That is true for both sides of this "argument". If everyone always agreed on all things, the term "debate" would be meaningless. |
So your brute will be able to do anything a normal Hero can do, but first you're going to have to pass through the stage of being a Rogue, which is one step above a Villain, but one step below a Hero - and while that's your status, a lot of Hero stuff will be blocked off to you.
Let me tell you a story, with colors...
BRUTEY <--- This is Brutey, the brutal brute - he is EVIL, and lives in the Rogue Isles, which are also evil. He does evil things, and his friends are evil too - but his enemies are GOOD. Note the red color - this helps to see he is evil.
But one day, Brutey decides to rethink his poor life choices, and wonders what it'd be like to be less brutal, and more hugglesome - so he goes to another dimention, called Praetoria.
PRAETORIA <--- This is Praetoria. The color of Praetoria is purple - purple is a mix of red and blue. This is important.
In Praetoria, Brutey starts to do things that aren't evil. He starts to lose his color, and becomes rather GRAY. His friends still think he is evil, even if he seems more hugglesome than before, so they continue to socialize with him, because that's what friends do.
BRUTEY <--- This is Brutey in Praetoria. He is somewhat gray now, owing to a clash between hugglesomeness and evil.
But now, his enemies also notice the rise in the hugglesome factor, and they begin to tolerate his presence. They allow him to travel around their zones, and not just his old evil zones.
But they don't totally trust him - there is still some evil amongst his hugglesomeness, so they don't make friends with him, and he can't socialize in the nice blue palces.
But Brutey continues to do good deeds, and stops being naughty completely. Suddenly, one day, he stops being gray, and finds he is BLUE!
BRUTEY <--- This is Brutey. He is now blue. Note the color - this is a good color.
All Brutey's old friends, who are still red, get mad at him, and tell him he's not allowed back, and they won't hang out with him anymore.
But Brutey is not sad - he's found that the blue people are nicer than the red people anyway - and because he's found hugglesomness is nicer than naughtiness, he doesn't miss his old friends anyway - and there are lots and lots of new blue friends to make. They're all very happy he's now fully hugglesome, and no longer naughty, so they all become his friends, and he can hang out and socialize with them in the nice blue places.
Brutey is now very happy in his nice new good blue home, and he has fun all the time - except when he goes to a PvP zone and his old friends drone him because they're still mad at him.