MMORPG.com Top 5 MMOs That Need Remakes = CoH bashing

Samuel_Tow · 10-08-2009 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

Well, yes, but I can see their point all the same. Even at level 50 there's that sense that you're a strictly-B-list hero in the City of Heroes universe. That, to use the way of things in an established comic universe as a metaphor, you might have your own title, but the next time Geoff Johns writes a 12-issue megacrossover, you're gonna be one of those guys who dies in the big fight scene on page 17 of issue 3.

Where the hell does this come from? I've been reading this same sentiment for five years, and while it was true at some point, right now it feels like some sort of a time loop that we keep catching echoes out of. What, was beating up Tyrant, Lord Recluse, Dreck, Vanessa DeVore, Hro'Dthoz, Lord Nemesis, Countess Crey and even outright GODDES Hequat, COMPLETELY ON YOUR OWN not enough for people? What constitutes A-list heroes, then? Being able to juggle planets? Really!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Quinch · 10-08-2009 12:21 AM

My problem with the "game is old and needs a revamp" argument is simple.

How similar is City of Heroes as it is now to as it was at its outset? Way I see it, the game revamps itself a little each issue - usually for the better, too.

An open letter to NCsoft

je_saist · 10-08-2009 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

Where the hell does this come from? I've been reading this same sentiment for five years, and while it was true at some point, right now it feels like some sort of a time loop that we keep catching echoes out of. What, was beating up Tyrant, Lord Recluse, Dreck, Vanessa DeVore, Hro'Dthoz, Lord Nemesis, Countess Crey and even outright GODDES Hequat, COMPLETELY ON YOUR OWN not enough for people? What constitutes A-list heroes, then? Being able to juggle planets? Really!

somebody else gave a really good example. They were playing a villain, had defeated Lord Recluse in battle... and when they went to go talk to another contact... the contact actually tells you, the player, that the task you are given is beneath her. You're being given a dead-end run.

Now, in the aspect of CoH as a GAME... this actually very understandable. The game engine simply wasn't flexible enough to account for a player's accomplishments. Trying to match text to what players had done, or hadn't done, just wasn't worth the coding trouble.

Now, we do know that some of this is changing in Going Rogue... or shortly afterwards. I can't find the link, but one of the developers mentioned that the game engine now has the capability to determine whether or not a player cuts the red wire, or the blue wire. This is actually the foundation, as I understand it, of the upcoming morality system that will be in Going Rogue. What your player does will determine what they can do. Fall too many hostage rescues... and it's possible that you're avatar won't be given any more hostage missions. Fail to rob a bank... and contacts might find something else for you to do instead.

As I see it, the sentiment that players will never be more than B-list powers is driven more by perception of the game's text and limitations... than rather what actually happens in the game.

Carnifax · 10-08-2009 12:50 AM

Actually I think the chap in the article makes quite reasonable points. He's mostly saying "The game has still got a good community, now is the time for an upgrade / change since it'd be probably 2012 before any new game would go live".

The Heroic thing is a little biased though. I feel pretty powerful wading through spawns of 10+ enemies (compared to 1-2 for WoW and WAR and 3 or 4 with CO). But the storylines often aren't and certainly could do with a revamp. And a new engine would allow new possibilities.

That said I'm not certain Paragon Studios are up to developing a full game. A lot of their choices / implementations have been fairly tame and safe, especially in recent issues. Sometimes it feels like they're going through the wishlist from years ago rather than thinking of their own new smart ideas to implement. Even "Going Rogue" is hardly a new and original idea for them, people have been requesting it since Villains came out.

NeverDark · 10-08-2009 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RemianenI

Because WoW is still kicking every other game's teeth in, financially? Whenever a discussion like this comes up, I notice people are quick to mention Blizzard's baby. You're doing your game a grave disservice by even mentioning it. Don't compare this game to that one. That game could lose three times this game's total subscribership and not even flinch.

Bringing up WoW here is fair, because the article claims that CoX needs a revamp due to being five years old. WoW is also five years old; why does that rule apply for this game and not for that one? No point was made on CoX's subscriber numbers, or potential for growth. If CoX needs a revamp solely because it's five years old, then every five year old game needs a revamp, WoW included.

We'll always have Paragon.

rian_frostdrake · 10-08-2009 12:57 AM

mmos have a natural tendency to lead to people acting in a tribalistic fashion, defend the ingroup and trash the outsiders. combined with the inelegance of most gamers in online communications, really its somewhat expected. As it stands we will have a better idea of where coh stands in about 2 weeks. till then its all just guessing.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

Samuel_Tow · 10-08-2009 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by je_saist

somebody else gave a really good example. They were playing a villain, had defeated Lord Recluse in battle... and when they went to go talk to another contact... the contact actually tells you, the player, that the task you are given is beneath her. You're being given a dead-end run.

Yeah, Abyss. Who is a jerk. And she ends up eating her words, because you end up taking on Miss Liberty, probably the most notable hero in Paragon City after the Statesman. The problem with CoV is the lack of imagination the writers had when writing content for it, with all due respect to the writers at the time. The whole game is designed as us WORKING FOR the contacts (Tavish Bell notwithstanding) and the many inventive ways to give us motivation to do so. Which is a mistake, a sign of lack of imagination in writing stories where we work FOR OURSELVES, and one of the many reasons I like to bring up when people try to claim City of Villains is superior to City of Heroes in every conceivable way. This isn't as problematic CoH-side, co-op content notwithstanding.

Quote:

As I see it, the sentiment that players will never be more than B-list powers is driven more by perception of the game's text and limitations... than rather what actually happens in the game.

Inventing reasons for why your villain does what he does and puts up with the foul mouths of the many villain contacts is half the fun of playing City of Villains. Of course, it'd be a lot more fun if we didn't have to tip-toe around shoddy writing, but it is what it is. I always try to pick contacts appropriate to my villain's mentality, and when I am forced into a contact which doesn't fit, I can usually come up with a reason-exception, anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Carnifax · 10-08-2009 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeverDark

Bringing up WoW here is fair, because the article claims that CoX needs a revamp due to being five years old. WoW is also five years old; why does that rule apply for this game and not for that one? No point was made on CoX's subscriber numbers, or potential for growth. If CoX needs a revamp solely because it's five years old, then every five year old game needs a revamp, WoW included.

Of course rumours are that with the new Cataclysm expansion that's exactly what WoW is going to be doing, EVE stylee. They are just rumours though.

For me Going Rogue will really be an indication of how Paragon Studios & the CoH franchise will progress (or even if it will progress). Adding a few new zones and powersets alone for me will indicate a lack of ambition and ideas.

Samuel_Tow · 10-08-2009 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RemianenI

A compelling case can be made for niche games to reinvent themselves more than once per decade of life. And this game would probably qualify as a niche game (since it's not in the firmly established, massively popular fantasy or sci-fi settings). Other games are taking what CoX used to be king of and beating Paragon over the head with better and more expansive versions of it. And as UnSub mentioned, new games are governed by new hardware capabilities while older games can't move forward because of folks with 5 year old rigs. Can't really make a leap forward with a noose around your neck.

That's assuming "better graphics" trumps everything else. As far as I'm concerned, game graphics became good enough four-five years ago, and all the new fancy effects and graphics of the new games that came out 2008-2009 are, to me, completely unneeded. In fact, I make it a point to turn off bloom filters, depth of field and motion blur filters, overbright, film grain, all of these things are just useless to me. Granted, I'm a fan of good shaders and dynamic lights, but it's far from what makes the game. Pretty much high-resolution textures and reasonably detailed 3D models is all that really matters to me.

I've tried all the "better" games. I didn't like them. WoW is butt ugly, though more because of a design choice than graphics problems. Champions Online has a HORRIBLE art style and stilted animations, completely wasting the good graphics. Lineage and its successors look pretty when they're static, but they don't look good in action and they are just dull and unimaginative. City of Heroes is the only MMO I've played that actually made me go "Cool!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Ms. Mesmer · 10-08-2009 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnSub

I'll let you in on a little secret: there are a lot of people who don't like CoH/V. They tried it, they played it, they got sick of the lvl grind and / or constantly seeing the same maps in their instanced missions. Some players hate that CoH/V is so instance dependent; others hate the lack of visible loot, or the lack of an endgame they consider worthwhile. EQ / DAOC players of the time felt that CoH/V was too light and breezy, that it lacked substance.

Funny thing is, aside from the repetitive maps from the same few core tilesets, the rest of those things are also things that people love about this game. Minimal spawn camping, low impact of kill-stealing, no ninja looters, no boring endgame raids (many of which are also instanced and run so often that they would make you long for the simple variety of warehouse layouts that we get within just that one tileset) that you have to do to keep up, and no looking just like everyone else because you all do the same instances for the same gear.

All of those were design choices that were made for a reason, and changing course would likely not draw in new players, and only serve to alienate those already here. This illustrates something that we see all the time here, people have differing tastes about what they want in this game. Power color changing has probably been the most-requested feature for this game, but for those who didn't really care about it, it was a "waste of developer time". You see the same arguments about power proliferation, user-generated content, and probably pretty much any other feature in this game. Game development really is a no-win situation.

"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."

NightshadeLegree · 10-08-2009 01:41 AM

Personally I wasn't overly impressed by the article. It seemed to trot out the tired old "CoH will get killed by CO and DCUO" argument that's been getting kicked around these forums forever, despite CO shaping up to be, at best, the WAR to CoH's WoW, and DCUO shaping up to be... I don't know what... Sidekicks Online?

The biggest real threat to CoH right now is if Going Rogue gets a lukewarm reception. Problem is there's lots of ways it could get just exactly that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliin

To heck with talk of a remake for new tilesets. Let's get that ASAP. Heck, if they could come up with a map randomizer instead of the group of pre-made maps I'd jump for joy.

I'd love to see more maps. Indeed one way Going Rogue could be a big letdown will be if there's as much office/warehouse/cave/office/warehouse/ship/cave as there is at the moment. Still, all MMOs suffer from this to some extent, including WoW. The mines my level 2 human killed kobolds in was exactly the same as the mine that my level 3 undead killed spiders in, despite being on the other side of the world.

The difference is that every zone/region in WoW looks different, and since you spend more time in the wider world than you do in mines or castles you just don't get that same sense of deja vu you get in CoH. Of course WoW's open world would only be possible in CoH if you nerfed travel powers (including sprint) and made the enemies a lot tougher. I'm definitely not suggesting that's the path to go down. Apart from anything else imitating WoW doesn't work - as proven by the number of failed and F2P WoW clones.

UnSub · 10-08-2009 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ms. Mesmer

Funny thing is, aside from the repetitive maps from the same few core tilesets, the rest of those things are also things that people love about this game. Minimal spawn camping, low impact of kill-stealing, no ninja looters, no boring endgame raids (many of which are also instanced and run so often that they would make you long for the simple variety of warehouse layouts that we get within just that one tileset) that you have to do to keep up, and no looking just like everyone else because you all do the same instances for the same gear.

I agree - you can't make everyone happy. Some of the things that some players saw as weaknesses attracted others. And CoH was a pioneering title in many, many respects, which often gets forgotten... and pioneering titles can often turn people off who would prefer the familiar.

But the original point was about being surprised over players being negative towards CoH/V. There are a lot out there and some are very vocal.

Ms. Mesmer · 10-08-2009 02:52 AM

I do agree with that. You will find it for any game out there. There are literally legions of disaffected former WoW players, for instance. Not every game is going to be every player's cup of tea, even those with a very broad appeal.

"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."

Silver Gale · 10-08-2009 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilanna

Here is the article: http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/3590 CoH is on the second page. Here is the forum post: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/254846 So many negative comments...

Rule 1 of keeping your blood pressure down when reading any articles online, about anything: Never Read The Comments.

Character index

BellaStrega · 10-08-2009 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed

The main argument in the artical seems to be a sequel should be made because the game is 5 and half years old. Thats it.

Wonder why WoW isn't on the list.

WoW's getting a fairly massive revamp in its next expansion. It also has two previous expansions, so they probably consider it fairly up to date.

I would like to see CoH get some nice revamping in Going Rogue, though. Could always use quality additions.

Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

Oliin · 10-08-2009 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Gale

Rule 1 of keeping your blood pressure down when reading any articles online, about anything: Never Read The Comments.

Honestly, I read those comments, at least for the first four or five pages it's mostly people disagreeing with the article about CoH needing a revamp. Only a couple of folks doing the CO is CoH2 thing is all.

MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812

BellaStrega · 10-08-2009 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rajani Isa

Because every time it raises the level cap, it has to reinvent itself. To the same thing...

WoW has never reinvented itself. It has been refined with expansions and content updates, but it's never had to reinvent itself.

Also, WoW's not on the list because it is getting a remake with Cataclysm, and because it's so damned successful it's hard for anyone to say that Blizzard's on the road to ruin and expect to be taken seriously by anyone who's not invested in hating their game.

Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

Drugfree Boy · 10-08-2009 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree

I'd love to see more maps. Indeed one way Going Rogue could be a big letdown will be if there's as much office/warehouse/cave/office/warehouse/ship/cave as there is at the moment. Still, all MMOs suffer from this to some extent, including WoW. The mines my level 2 human killed kobolds in was exactly the same as the mine that my level 3 undead killed spiders in, despite being on the other side of the world..

More maps would indeed be great

BellaStrega · 10-08-2009 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. NoPants

I remember when a lot of people saw their spouses and children being suddenly addicted and started calling WoW Evercrack...no wait...

Yes, and WoW multiplied that by 10.

Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)

Cyyan · 10-08-2009 05:12 AM

I have to agree with the article's premise, CoX does need a re-vamp throughout. The whole world feels static, how about some weather?

The signature Heroes and Villians spend far to much time doing nothing, when they should be out and about. We SHOULD be running into them on the street and in missions, they should not be stuck in one location rain or shine like bad mimes at a street faire. Be even better if they we're occasionally controlled by someone and not just scripted NPCs. How cool would it be if you got a random invite from Sister Psyche to a team to go take out a Rickti Base or some such?!

For example: Let's say you wanted to run a Positron TF, first, you'd have to find him to talk to, which would mean talking to one of the other Signature Heroes and that would lead you and your team to a mission where you'd assist him in taking a out a troublesome character, only then would he grant you the respect to carry out the TF. Once you've completed his TF you would get an occasional call from him to go "handle" a special problem that would reward you with rare loot-temp.powers-XP-credits... whatever, then that Positron's Ally Badge would REALLY mean something.

It would also be nice if they got a costume make-over they've been wearing the same tired outfits for years.

Travel Suppression is this game's worst feature, well that and MetaHumans riding mass transit like tourists at DisneyLand.

Noxilicious · 10-08-2009 05:17 AM

I have to echo the sentiment that the article is light on... well, anything.

I was hoping for some valid criticism that could actually serve to improve the game, or at the very least some overly ridiculous complaints that'll amuse. Instead, we get "Well, it's kinda old by now I guess" and some addendum on what the author wants to see in Super Hero MMOs in general, but isn't even directly related to CoX or even the other Super Hero MMOs, current and future.

Okay sure, it's an opinion piece, but if every column in a newspaper would be "In my opinion X is pretty Y", journalism would be dead.

The thing is, I actually do think the game is showing its age at certain parts and could do with a revamp, but, I reiterate, "It's five years old" isn't very concise, or addresses a problem in the first place.

Really, it's just poor journalism.

Clouded · 10-08-2009 05:31 AM

I really think the Devs/marketing/whomever should release some new info on GR or Issue 17, something. There seems to be so much negative press and DOOOOM about CoX lately on these forums, etc.

I know Comic Con is going to produce more info, but that's still 2-3 weeks away and I'm uber impatient.

Samuel_Tow · 10-08-2009 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouded

I really think the Devs/marketing/whomever should release some new info on GR or Issue 17, something. There seems to be so much negative press and DOOOOM about CoX lately on these forums, etc.

I know Comic Con is going to produce more info, but that's still 2-3 weeks away and I'm uber impatient.

You know... "Negative Press," when taken out of context actually sounds like a really cool name for a hero or a villain. I keep finding these in the strangest places... Wonder if it's taken on Victory?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Carnifax · 10-08-2009 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow

You know... "Negative Press," when taken out of context actually sounds like a really cool name for a hero or a villain. I keep finding these in the strangest places... Wonder if it's taken on Victory?

Hmmm. Now I want to rename my Dark/Sonic defender to "Negative Vibes"

SilverAgeFan · 10-08-2009 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilanna

MMORPG.com Top 5 MMOs That Need Remakes = CoH bashing

No. No it doesn't. If you slow down and read objectively, the author thinks highly of CoH and its place in MMO history. I find his criticisms of the game (and all other entries in the sub-genre) to be spot on. The items he outlines are things many of us overlook due to a love of this game. Just the same, would you reject a game that had all the good things you like from CoH but also allowed you to punch baddies (or good guys) through walls, worthwhile secret identity content, graphics closer to those of the upcoming APB, and an overall more dynamic and responsive gameworld? I know I wouldn't.

I see his inclusion of CoH in his list is him making an early call that CoH is a classic. One that maybe he no longer wants to play, but nonetheless a key entry in the history of the genre and one he whose legacy he'd like to see go on.

As far as the comments, come on peoples, tease apart a few of them. Some folks are just plain saying CoH doesn't belong on the list. They don't qualify that assessment. For some, it's probably just too early. Surely, others simply hate the superhero genre. Sure, a couple make clear they didn't like the game the way it played and nothing will change their minds. But others commenting are just jockeying to squeeze their own top 5 favorite MMO franchises into that list.

Only in a world where any and all criticism = bashing does your thesis make any sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliin

Honestly, I read those comments, at least for the first four or five pages it's mostly people disagreeing with the article about CoH needing a revamp. Only a couple of folks doing the CO is CoH2 thing is all.

To be fair, Jack in several interviews leading up to the release of CO did assert that it was the spiritual heir to CoH. The notion that CO is CoH2 did not spring forth from a vacuum.