Are Scrappers Broken?

Or whining about how Brutes do more damage with better survivability - although admittedly those threads are several months old. It's not like the Scrapper forum is immune to the "grass is greener" mentality.

tl;dr version of the OP: zomg! There are idiots and false statements on the internet!

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Sad but true.

By your limited idea of force multiplication all a Scrapper has to do is take assault. My idea of force multiplication comes from their secondary effects. Not all scrappers share the same amount or type though, but there is easily one they can all have in common. I think under what else would be mezzed, debuffed or detailed conditions for other ATs without a Scrapper offering certain flexibilities; versus certain obstacles for a team who otherwise would be limited or force dismissed; you can be sure that the force is multiplied.

Sorry for the late reply, this thread was something I was late or had little chance of stumbling on ever again.

My scrapper can do more for some team make ups, than your Kinetic defender can, even on a STF, trust me on that.

You are correct, a Scrapper with Assault provides a force multiplier to their team. It's not a big multiplier, because Assault is additive with enhancements and other damage buffs, and Scrappers are not highly effective at running the power (10.5% damage buff versus 15% for Corruptors/Controllers and 18.8% for Defenders.) However, it is inarguable that a Scrapper with this power offers force multiplication to the team.

My definition of force multiplication is not "limited", but founded in game mechanics and basic algebra. Force multipliers are exactly that - things that multiply the effect (specifically the damage) of the whole team.

The only Scrapper powers that offer true force multiplication from their secondary effects are those with -defense, because it potentially makes the entire team more likely to hit the foe, increasing average DPS. Personally, I consider -defense to be a weak form of force multiplication even in the hands of ATs where its effect scale is large. The reason is that many characters slot such that their individual chances of hitting foes are already at or near the cap of 95%. This does leave -defense as potentially useful against foes with +defense or that might be smothering the team in -toHit. However, I would suggest that a Scrapper with Tactics might actually be more help to their team than one with -defense effects.

You seem to be trying to abstract the description of "multiplication" to a level where anything that keeps the team effective should be counted in this way. Aside from the problem of its dismissal of the fundamental mathematical meaning of "multiplication", there's nothing about what you seem to be saying that says a Scrapper needs to provide it. You could get "certain flexibilities" from adding a Tanker, another buffer/debuffer, a Blaster, or even a Kheldian.

Force multiplication has a specific meaning. Adding a Scrapper to a team is certain to contribute something to the team, contingent on the skill of the player behind them. However, except for -defense, what that contribution is will not be force multipliers. In that context, Scrappers (along with Blasters) contribute a force that's good to multiply.

Uh, huh. Look, I like Scrappers and other melee damage ATs a lot. That doesn't make me blind to simple algebraic realities. No matter what powersets I have, no Scrapper has the ability to improve a whole team's effectiveness the way a Kineticist can. The Scrapper's presence might mean a team that would have failed at some task instead bumps over the threshold. The Scrapper might pull a stunt that lets a team survive or recover where it would otherwise wipe out. None of that is the same thing as what we're talking about with force multipliers. Your Scrapper is not going to make my powers come back faster, or buff my resistances, or make my attacks hit harder (barring Assault).

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

With a dark melee / shield scapper, my experience is that she is not only an asset to a team, but sometimes a key player for mission success. She is built more for effect than damage, enabling both she and the rest of the team to take down the most difficult opponent(s). She is fierce, willing to jump into the heat of the battle against the toughest of opponents, enabling the team to take on a mission with yet more confidence in one of their players.

Pick what military science buzzwords you prefer, whether it's "force multipication" or "combined arms" or "local combat superiority". A good scrapper can provide for all of these.

What you described is not force multiplication.

Force multiplication has been explained multiple times in this thread. Its definition here is not the same as the military term. Instead, it is more specific. It is a game mechanical definition, while the military term encompass effects such as morale, terrain, or equippment/arms.

In the game context, force multipliers are things which multiply the game mechanical statistics of the team, usually DPS, through direct effect. The most common examples are +damage on the team or -DR on foes. Effects such as -Defense and +toHit can also assist under the right conditions. +Recharge is also a powerful effect, though it's multiplier is more dependent on the character's powers than some others. (A character with long recharging, fast activating powers benefits more than one with long activating, fast recharging powers.) +Recovery is sometimes used an indirect example, as it but this is crossing over into mitigation, which is subtly different.

Force multiplcation in this context is not effects which prevent your team from taking damage, such as +Defense, +DR, or Controls (which the Dark Armor Scrapper above would specialize in). The term "force multiplication", in this game community, is typically reserved for offensive multipliers. While defensive multipliers can increase a team's speed through battles by reducing the need for caution, offensive multipliers increase their speed even in a situation where the team needs no caution at all.

Scrappers do not provide this game mechanical force multiplcation, except through some Leadership powers or -Defense debuffs. These force multipliers they can provide, for those who can provide them, are quite weak when compared to those provided by ATs with strong buff or debuff features.

Your DA Scrapper can slow the speed at which foes are able to harm your team, but not multiplicatively increase speed the speed with which your team can harm the foes. At best, you can reduce the amount by which the foes can slow your team. This means your ability to benefit your team is limited by how much the foes actually threaten the team, where as offensive buffs are limited only by the AT caps.

wtf does that even mean? you are just making yourself sound like an idiot to any half-educated person that reads your post

It is impossible to accurately compare ATs. Not a single one can do 100% of the content better than all the other ATs.

True, this. Dark melee itself provides a strong debuff component against any enemy that takes its effects, particularly when a scapper's power sets are focused towards that end.

You're right in saying that the scapper's contribution towards the "force multiplier" is not necessarily beyond that provided by other team members. Such is the wonder of a well balanced team with the many other archetypes and powers. And that's where the concept of "combined arms" (a balanced mix of offense and defense effects) come into play.

A scrapper in particular has the advantage in "local combat superiority"; that is, capability to take on a single or a few or several foes in an area of conflict and deliver more damage and effect than they receive, while protecting the remainder of the team from adverse effects due to the aggro drawn. Combined with dark melee, the shield defense truly allows a scrapper to go "against all odds" (a power) versus an entire enemy group.

Whether this is a multiplicative effect depends a lot on the team makeup, because many of the other team members can contribute just as effectively, depending on their archetype and power sets. The good thing about the scappers sets, though, is that it's almost always at least complementary, if not multiplicative.

Lol, a bit serious? Although it was only half-sarcasm.

The OP says Stalkers can't scrap. And you call out *MY* statement as idiotic and half-educated!? LOL again.

Nothing against Scrapper DM, but Stalker DM is a monster. It takes the rounded out parts of Dark Melee and sharpens it into a fine, specialized point. Yeah, Stalker DM ultimately has less AoE but DM itself is pretty poor AoE anyway. In exchange, Stalker DM does *MORE* ST damage, *MORE* upfront burst damage and 2 effective pacifying powers instead of just 1.

So Scrapper DM = Amazing DPS, Great Burst potential (saturated Soul Drain), great utility (Dark Consumption is nice but not the corner-stone of the set. The utility comes primarily from Siphon Life), wonderful mitigation but Poor AoE.

Stalker DM = Similarly amazing DPS, Even Better Burst potential (Build up is static and AS adds to this), decent utility (the loss of DC ain't hurting much), *Better* mitigation (just add Placate and stir) but Poor*er* AoE.

The same pretty much goes for Electric Melee. Stalkers get pretty much the same out of it as Scrappers but do *more* burst and ST damage (thanks to AS and controlled AoE crits) but less mitigation (awww, no Lightning Clap).

Take what you will from that. Not saying Stalkers are better than Scrappers but Stalkers definitely get advantages for what they sacrifice (mainly that extra HP).

I agree.

I also want to take the opportunity to make clear that I am not trying to convince anyone that Scrappers (or other damage delivery focused ATs) are inferior.

For example, I wouldn't want to convince anyone that they should universally choose a buffer over a damage-dealer. They do different things for the team. So while the nature of force multiplying powers (in the game mechanical sense) means you can do exceptionally with a team of nothing but buffers and debuffers, there's no need to play the game that way. In practical terms, it's usually easier to assemble a balanced team with a core of damage dealers and a few buffer/debuffer characters, optionally including some sort character capable of aggro management (depending on how good the team's mitigation is). Sometimes one character can provide more than one of those things.

There are people who fixate on what's optimal and only seek to play or play with that combination of powersets, ATs, or what have you. Its fine to play that way specifically because you enjoy it, but I dislike when people preach it as the "best" way to play, or proclaim on the boards how they never invite "X" to their teams because it's not up to their standards. That's definitely not what I'm trying to promote here.

Yeah, exactly, stalkers have a single or duo shot KO opportunity that even the best of scrappers don't have. While they might not have the lasting power scrappers have, stalkers are one of a kind. Already having played a DM/shield scrapper to 48 (soon 50 no doubt) I'd like to try my hand with a stalker. Scary, very scary.

Cuz you like to lose 75% of your powers for mez protection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba Cuz you like to lose 75% of your powers for mez protection.

It's a combination of disliking melee in most games — Jade Empire being a fortunate exception — and Scrappers being the pinnacle combination of both melee-DPS and passive mitigation/survivability that ensures Scrappers are one AT I stay away from.

Then again, I guess that as a kid I was conditioned not to enjoy things that came too easy, so you may be on to something here.

Not to anyone in particular, quoting you because it's germane to your comment:

If you find playing Scrappers easy, then you're not trying very hard.

Scrappers are powerful and playing the game normally is very easy. Which is why many Scrappers don't play the game normally. Post-I16, challenge is there for the taking. Pre-I16, there was always fillers!