Are Scrappers Broken?
It is supremely unnecessary to dismember the accepted meaning of "force multiplication" in order to justify the usefulness of scrappers on teams.
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No one here is debating whether a scrapper is useful.
We're saying that a scrapper is, by definition, not force multiplication.
Where to now?
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I've never had a Scrapper "protect" me, whatever character I was playing. Every Scrapper I've seen in game, was always interested in chasing down enemies to kill them, and more often than not, it'd be the Scrappers that would cause the Defenders on the teams I was on, a headache by having to run after the Scrapper to heal it. Just stating my personal experience here.
The thing is though, that since Scrappers are melee characters, and have to chase enemies, even if a Scrapper chose to chase down a particular enemy because that enemy was attacking the Defender, no one would know this but the Scrapper. In fact, I think that in the heat of battle, no one pays much attention to what each teammate is doing. We're all in there trying to stay alive and fight the enemy and each character brings different abilities to the battlefield.
In my experience, no one has the time to monitor what everyone else is doing or how they're contributing to the team effort, and if you do have the time, you be may playing an Illusion Controller...
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
By keeping people alive in otherwise dire circumstances Scrappers are multiplying the output/within a given time.
I think it best if I see it as that, those moments where otherwise that Kinetic would taste pavement and do no multiplying at all. Scrappers can offer those moments but so few of them will. |
None of which has one single thing to do with force multiplication.
@SPTrashcan
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Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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In my experience, no one has the time to monitor what everyone else is doing or how they're contributing to the team effort, and if you do have the time, you be may playing an Illusion Controller...
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But really, LX, you mean to tell me you can't monitor exactly what each member of your team is doing, mathematically comparing who is contributing more, and offer suggestions to improve their tactics... all while doing the Warshade Dance?
I thought you were better than that.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I thought you were better than that.
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
We're saying that a scrapper is, by definition, not force multiplication. |
With the availability of -res IOs (Achilles Heel and Furty of the Gladiator) and Melt Armour in the new Blaze Mastery Pool, a subset of scrappers can now have a limited force mutliplication effect.
The only reason this occured to me is that last night I ran a Khan TF with a damage heavy team, the only defenders were emps (so +dam from fortitude and assault).
Cat has a Fury proc and by using spin at every oppurtunity, the damage boost from the -res was certainly significant over the course of the Reichsman fight. (He has assault as well and that pool has a limited damage multipication effect)
A single -res defender/controller would have easily outdone what contribution I had in the force multiplier stakes, but it the context of that damage heavy team I did witness an edge case where the lone scrapper did act as a multiplier.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
A single -res defender/controller would have easily outdone what contribution I had in the force multiplier stakes, but it the context of that damage heavy team I did witness an edge case where the lone scrapper did act as a multiplier.
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I have several slotted on my Broadsword scrapper, just to up the odds of activation for continuous benefit in situations like that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Complementary play is real, and it is important, and it is something Scrappers can do. It's worth pointing out that Tankers, Blasters, and Defenders were specifically designed with complementary roles in mind, and are very, very good at it. The difference between a Scrapper and a Tanker or Blaster is that they're not as good as complementing their opposite number, but neither do they have the lack that requires an opposite number to fill (which is what makes them good soloists).
None of which has one single thing to do with force multiplication. |
I do have a problem with people who care too much about efficiency to the point where they unnecessarily exclude every day casual players with their concepts from the team in order to have a team that is so super powered the fact the team builder lacks any skill doesn't matter.
Controllers and Defenders are nice but not needed at all or even combined. I am hoping one day more teams can score good achievements despite lacking in the abundance of support from defenders or controllers to make up for their lack of skill.
I do have a problem with people who care too much about efficiency to the point where they unnecessarily exclude every day casual players with their concepts from the team in order to have a team that is so super powered the fact the team builder lacks any skill doesn't matter.
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I only jumped in here because I saw what I perceived as people mangling the understanding of a reasonably well-defined term, at least in the context of these forums. I also think it helps people to understand just how useful things like offensive buffs and debuffs can be.
The problem (as I see it) comes in when the types of players you're talking about apply that understanding in extremis. They let efficiency drive their playstyle and team building to an extent that is needlessly exclusive.
I think this game is too "casual friendly" to have much need for that. It's not as if there's much content that calls for it. Even if one makes the argument that things like the RSF or STF do call for it (not something I'd automatically agree with), it's not as if the whole game presents anything like their level of difficulty.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Woah guys... sorry to derail the thread, but are you guys saying you're all in agreement that the -Res proc can make a character into a force-multiplier when before it was not considered one?
And do you guys consider Kheldians who, with each attack, refresh their minor debuffs of -Speed;-Recharge (WS) and -Def (PB) to be force-multiplier despite the debuffs not being constant toggle powers?
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Woah guys... sorry to derail the thread, but are you guys saying you're all in agreement that the -Res proc can make a character into a force-multiplier when before it was not considered one?
And do you guys consider Kheldians who, with each attack, refresh their minor debuffs of -Speed;-Recharge (WS) and -Def (PB) to be force-multiplier despite the debuffs not being constant toggle powers? |
Woah guys... sorry to derail the thread, but are you guys saying you're all in agreement that the -Res proc can make a character into a force-multiplier when before it was not considered one?
And do you guys consider Kheldians who, with each attack, refresh their minor debuffs of -Speed;-Recharge (WS) and -Def (PB) to be force-multiplier despite the debuffs not being constant toggle powers? |
Not really:
-Speed/recharge is a small debuff, so at best it adds a small portion of soft control.
-def is pretty much overkill, as stated before folks tend to take care of hitting the acc cap on their own so it doesn't add anything from about the midgame onwards.
However:
-res from a sonic blaster certainly would be an example of a small force multiplication from a damage dealer.
Being more reliable than the procs, it would be noticeable on any hard targets. On the TF I was referring to the 'normal' AVs melted so fast the proc would have fired 1-2 times tops.
It was the combination of the biggest bag of HP in the game, and the complete lack of -res on anyone else that made it noticeable.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Woah guys... sorry to derail the thread, but are you guys saying you're all in agreement that the -Res proc can make a character into a force-multiplier when before it was not considered one?
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Absolutely. Probably most characters who can obtain such effects still won't be as impressive at them as an AT that specializes in it, but the -RES procs are one of the best examples of it just because of how nearly universally -RES benefits everyone beating on an affected target.
And do you guys consider Kheldians who, with each attack, refresh their minor debuffs of -Speed;-Recharge (WS) and -Def (PB) to be force-multiplier despite the debuffs not being constant toggle powers? |
That's hardly to say the -speed/-recharge of a WS, the taunts of their tank forms, etc., are not useful. They just degrade the foe's ability to threaten the team, the benefit of which is conditional on how threatening the foes were to begin with. Outright force multipliers tend not to depend much that condition unless the foes are so threatening no one can keep the effects in play.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I tell you what, when I do the all scrapper again, when they fix it so that you can't tamper with it, I'll time us. Then we will see about bagging it and getting a best time with the other ATs hopefully, team holding together providing, oh and on their alts lol some only do scrappers I think.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Are you familiar with the all-Defender and all-Controller STFs that have been run?
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I think, I don't what it is with Scrappers but most of them are just hungry for blood, which means you got what you got for example when the US guys did it on test something like 121 defeats. We don't have anything like that. It was less than 10 and all of them resolvable.
We are not your average bunch of scrappers.
The AVs go down so fast we had no need for a Kin or Rad tbh although the difference may be shown but seriously we wasn't watching any clocks.
It shall be interesting what times we can get anyway, hopefully there will be no new changes.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Just to add. It's when the settings are fixed. No one wants to do it now. There can be nothing official to claim if done right now.
Sometimes it's better to do the practical than to sit around theorizing.
Yes, in all Scrapper ones, one Scrapper can be used to keep the rest of the team alive, someone said that they can't whilst down repping me saying its laughable but I know what I see. I am familiar with speed runs too as I have been a part of them.
I think, I don't what it is with Scrappers but most of them are just hungry for blood, which means you got what you got for example when the US guys did it on test something like 121 defeats. We don't have anything like that. It was less than 10 and all of them resolvable. We are not your average bunch of scrappers. The AVs go down so fast we had no need for a Kin or Rad tbh although the difference may be shown but seriously we wasn't watching any clocks. It shall be interesting what times we can get anyway, hopefully there will be no new changes. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
The level 54 AVs take a bit to kill, I am curious how you beat them as fast as you think a team of debuffers would? What did you guys do on the AVs that makes it fast?
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We hit them. No one gets killed and the DPS is maintained. I am saying that none of us were watching the clock and I will say that it was generally faster than from what I have seen in an average team that would have say a debuffer or two, a couple of blasters, a couple of scrappers and a tank. We could of been slightly faster with a debuffer which is what I was getting at but not really something we had to care about.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
The level 54 AVs take a bit to kill, I am curious how you beat them as fast as you think a team of debuffers would? What did you guys do on the AVs that makes it fast?
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Ultimately what matters is overall pace and preferably lack of defeats when comparing ATs. Vengeance is not the thing to thrive on, it'll be interesting if we can produce teams that can compare them all properly, or adequately, but then I think why? Fun is what matters and we have RL to think about, GL with any chances anyone gets anyway.
By keeping people alive in otherwise dire circumstances Scrappers are multiplying the output/within a given time.
I think it best if I see it as that, those moments where otherwise that Kinetic would taste pavement and do no multiplying at all. Scrappers can offer those moments but so few of them will.