Are Scrappers Broken?


Adelie

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnX View Post
Tankers: “Scrappers do waaaay more damage than us AND have comparable defenses!” Higher resistance cap, higher def/res modifiers, higher HP. *Cough* Tanks have better mitigation than scrappers, but it's often overkill which makes it seem scrappers have about as good mitigation.

Brutes: “Scrappers are better than us in PvP!” No comment on PvP... This isn't really a scrapper problem either, because AFAIK, PvP has always been a game of rock/scissors/paper in CoX

Controllers: “Scrappers do more DPS than us!” As if controls and debuffs/buff don't exist... Besides, a controller is able to put out much more "effective DPS" on a tough target than a scrapper can ever dream of. -Res and -Regen combined with some of the more damage heavy primaries do some really nice DPS.

Corruptors: “Scrappers solo better than we do!” I wouldn't go that far. A /rad or /dark corr is often a lot safer to solo than a scrapper.

Defenders: “Scrappers do more damage, have higher defenses AND solo better than we do!” Here we go again. It's not like all of the ATs only do damage and have self mitigation. Defenders are extremely potent at disabling enemies with debuffs or turning their own team into demigods.

Blasters: …/faceplant If that's how you play your blaster I won't say a thing

Dominators: “PToD doesn’t affect Scrappers! We’re worthless in big fights!” Controllers are useless, too, because PToD gimps their controls and debuffs!

Kheldians: “We can’t solo AVs like a Scrapper!” And what percentage of scrappers can do that? A couple of percent at most. Besides, in teams it doesn't really matter if you can solo the AV because you have the other guys there as well.

Stalkers: “I want to Scrap like a Scrapper!” Sure, but then you can't AS like a Stalker.

Blasters: “SCRA!...” /faceplant You can build very defensive blasters, too. Check the boards for range softcapped hoverblasters. Equal mitigation to tanks by your rules.


What does this tell you? Not trying to be a Scrapper hater or calling for a nerf (Having lots of fun with my latest scrapper.) , but it’s hard to deny that all other AT boards seem to make a point of comparing themselves to Scrappers… Scrapper envy can be seen almost daily in every single AT board. Yet, how often do Scrappers exhibit AT envy?

Scrappers don't exhibit AT envy because they don't have to. Other ATs shouldn't either (except maybe the Corr / Defender thing) because there isn't really a reason. Each of the ATs are good at some things and bad at some. I mean, how often do you see a scrapper buffing the team?
Stuff within the quote..


- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Give me a level 1-5 Rad defender, and they'll be many orders of magnitude safer than a Scrapper (plus end up pulling aggro with their toggles) for many more levels (or permanently, frankly.)

And if you've never heard of a "tankfender," you haven't seen a good (often D3) defender.

I've got to agree with Sailboat - I just don't see this complaining about Scrappers ... um, pretty much anywhere.
I got to agree with you here.. My D3 has often survived more than my scrappers could.. and I have several from 35-50. I don't see people complaining about scrappers.. There are many builds that can make a scrapper envious. I have seen blasters get a bit peeved when I bust out Shield Charge+Lightning Rod and waste everything but the boss. Fun stuff.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by clawsandeffect View Post
i've had empaths tell me "when you die i'm not coming to get you."
my response was "when you die...i'll come back and give you a wakie."



qft


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
You 7 go that way....I'll go this way....see ya soon.

I've said this before and it worked out just fine.

...

That's what scrappers excel at (paralleled by brutes) they can handle most anything thrown at them with aplomb.

I've had Empaths tell me "When you die I'm not coming to get you."
My response was "When YOU die...I'll come back and give you a wakie."
I do this quite often too, on my MM.

The empath said "I can't keep you alive if you're not with the team."


Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade View Post

Brutes: "Can't talk. Too busy with SMASH!"
There have been times my teammates have thought that I either didn't speak English or was some kind of advanced bot program because my fingers were too busy maintaining the SMASH to do trivial things like communicate.


Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade View Post
To be fair, it's kind of irritating to be playing a character with healing powers and getting yelled at for "letting" a guy die when he decided that he just HAD to go aggro a whole different roomful of nasties.
Yeah, but that's a whole different thing you're talking about here.

We're talking about characters that take risks they know they can take. In fact that means they aren't taking risks at all, just doing what they're built for.

Then there's the l33tkid section of players who think just because they can aggro the whole room means they can also take on the whole room and stay alive, and if they can't it's the defender's fault because they failed at the holy trinity of TANK/HEAL/DPS!


- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade View Post
To be fair, it's kind of irritating to be playing a character with healing powers and getting yelled at for "letting" a guy die when he decided that he just HAD to go aggro a whole different roomful of nasties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSorrow View Post
Yeah, but that's a whole different thing you're talking about here.

We're talking about characters that take risks they know they can take. In fact that means they aren't taking risks at all, just doing what they're built for.

Then there's the l33tkid section of players who think just because they can aggro the whole room means they can also take on the whole room and stay alive, and if they can't it's the defender's fault because they failed at the holy trinity of TANK/HEAL/DPS!
Agreed, and thank you DSorrow.

I may have less hitpoints than any other AT, but damned if I'm squishy. I know what I can handle, and if I can't, there's always wakies. I figure the important part is not to endanger the team by bringing back more aggro than they can handle. Nothing sucks harder than a scrapper running back to the team at the aggro cap screaming "HEAL ME PLZ!" If you bit off more than you can chew, swallow or choke, don't puke on us.

I've also never yelled at a healer for letting me die.


Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Agreed, and thank you DSorrow.

I may have less hitpoints than any other AT, but damned if I'm squishy. I know what I can handle, and if I can't, there's always wakies. I figure the important part is not to endanger the team by bringing back more aggro than they can handle. Nothing sucks harder than a scrapper running back to the team at the aggro cap screaming "HEAL ME PLZ!" If you bit off more than you can chew, swallow or choke, don't puke on us.

I've also never yelled at a healer for letting me die.
Zactly. I will not put the team in danger.. but I will put myself in danger just to push the limits. I will often ask that the defender, controller, what have you to not follow me. I don't care if I die. I will only push ahead when I know the team has the other mobs under control. Call it scrapperlock if ya like; but I play smart and fast.


 

Posted

Are scrappers broken?

Yes.

Will anything get done about it?

No.


"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Work_Ethic View Post
Are scrappers broken?

Yes.

Will anything get done about it?

No.


OOps. I found a sleeping scrapper and sorta superglued him. I thought he was broke..honest.


Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
I don't think any scrappers have solo'd any GM's yet. Be sure to let Corrs, MM's, Trollers, and Def's know when they do
In the time it took any other AT to solo a GM the scrapper just defeated about 2000 mobs. And gathered all the rewards for so doing. How much was that GM worth?

Meanwhile, back at the auction house...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimPickens View Post
In the time it took any other AT to solo a GM the scrapper just defeated about 2000 mobs. And gathered all the rewards for so doing. How much was that GM worth?

Meanwhile, back at the auction house...
Trust me, anything that can solo a GM can kill mobs just as quickly, if not more so, than the scrapper.


Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Trust me, anything that can solo a GM can kill mobs just as quickly, if not more so, than the scrapper.
Yes, because single target debuffs (especially regeneration debuffs) and damage have exactly the same value against a single AV or GM over the course of 30 minutes as they do against 16 minions, lieutenants, and bosses over the course of ten seconds.

More seriously, yes, I'm well aware that certain builds of other ATs can meet or exceed Scrapper performance in general PvE. That doesn't change the fact that Scrappers (and Brutes) collectively are well-served by the build and challenge options available. The reason I consider this the golden age of the Scrapper is not so much because I necessarily expect things to get worse as because I don't see a realistic way for things to get better. Right now is a great time for characters with good AoE damage and moderate (enhanceable to excellent) survivability.


@SPTrashcan
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Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade View Post
Or, for an alternate version:


Tankers: "Die? What's that?"

Brutes: "Can't talk. Too busy with SMASH!"

Controllers: "Please be silent. I'm basking in my greatness here."

Corruptors: "Scourge! Scourge! Hahahaha!"

Defenders: "Don't call me a healer!"

Blasters: "BOOM! Hah!"

Dominators: "Please stand still while I set you on fire."

Kheldians: "More slots! Pleasssse!"

Stalkers: "This isn't the Archetype you're looking for." *Placate*



Best AT related post. Ever. <<wipes tears of laughter from eyes>>

also - I realize i'm reading years-old posts on this thread, but have to admit I get peeved with teammates who, either out of impatience or hubris, bring hordes of fail back to share w/ rest of team. Or starts a second fight entirely while the rest of the team could use their help with the first mob. If someone wants to go fight in separate room from the rest of the team, then why join a team in the first place?


It is not lurking . . it's simply recognizing that someone else on the forums has already asked the question, answered the question, said it better, or made a bigger spectacle of themselves than I ever could.

So long Justice. Its been great.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
Yes, because single target debuffs (especially regeneration debuffs) and damage have exactly the same value against a single AV or GM over the course of 30 minutes as they do against 16 minions, lieutenants, and bosses over the course of ten seconds.

More seriously, yes, I'm well aware that certain builds of other ATs can meet or exceed Scrapper performance in general PvE. That doesn't change the fact that Scrappers (and Brutes) collectively are well-served by the build and challenge options available. The reason I consider this the golden age of the Scrapper is not so much because I necessarily expect things to get worse as because I don't see a realistic way for things to get better. Right now is a great time for characters with good AoE damage and moderate (enhanceable to excellent) survivability.
I run bots/traps, which is more than capable of soloing both GMs and +4/x8 spawns. I don't have any single target debuffs, my AoE regen debuff is also a hold, my caltrops do knockdown and have five damage procs, my acid mortar does AoE -resist and -def AND has an achilles heel proc, the assbot spawns a burn patch for each mob it hits, and the icing on the cake is that my bots are softcapped to everything, and I'm softcapped to ranged/AoE. Oh, and since each bot and I have separate aggro caps, I can walk through a map and actually herd everything.

I'm loving the changes too. I think I'm going to farm -1/x8 for a week straight before I even TOUCH the color customization.


Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spar_Khee View Post
If someone wants to go fight in separate room from the rest of the team, then why join a team in the first place?
Mostly because - until now - they didn't let us set the spawns for 8 while solo.

And it will continue to happen because no scrapper, not even an MM with six pets, can start Task/Strike Force on his own...


Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
I run bots/traps, which is more than capable of soloing both GMs and +4/x8 spawns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
I'm well aware that certain builds of other ATs can meet or exceed Scrapper performance in general PvE.
You seem to be under the impression that I've said something I haven't. These are exactly the things I have said:

- Scrappers are well-served by the options available in IOs.
- I don't see things getting any better than they are now for Scrappers.
- GM soloing and general PvE use different tools.

At no point did I actually say that Scrappers are "the best" or that they are "broken", which is what you seem to be trying to refute. Good on your Bots/Traps, by the way - I don't see things getting any better for Masterminds than they are now, either.


@SPTrashcan
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
You seem to be under the impression that I've said something I haven't. These are exactly the things I have said:

- Scrappers are well-served by the options available in IOs.
- I don't see things getting any better than they are now for Scrappers.
- GM soloing and general PvE use different tools.

At no point did I actually say that Scrappers are "the best" or that they are "broken", which is what you seem to be trying to refute. Good on your Bots/Traps, by the way - I don't see things getting any better for Masterminds than they are now, either.
I admit it was a little "toot my own horn," but I was just trying to make the point that, just because you can solo a GM, it doesn't make you useless against swarms of mobs.

Said another way, the two are not mutually exclusive, which is the feel I got from your post. Somehow I read your post as saying "you can either exceed scrapper killing potential or solo GMs, not both." I apologize for reading into it more than I should have.


Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

No, they are not mutually exclusive. Nor are they mutually supporting, which was the explicit statement you made:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Trust me, anything that can solo a GM can kill mobs just as quickly, if not more so, than the scrapper.
For me to disprove the above, all I need to do is produce a build that is good at soloing single hard targets but poor at destroying several soft targets at once - and I can. But I think we are now agreed that the two activities are sufficiently different as to be orthogonal.

On a different point, I note that it would be silly for me to state that Masterminds are broken because of the performance of your Bots/Traps, just as it would be silly to say that Controllers are broken because of Ill/Rad or Fire/Kin. Scrappers and Brutes, however, have converged on a performance band tight enough that you can actually make reasonable statements about the performance of the AT as a whole. Scrappers may or may not be broken, but they're undoubtedly consistent.


@SPTrashcan
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
For me to disprove the above, all I need to do is produce a build that is good at soloing single hard targets but poor at destroying several soft targets at once - and I can. But I think we are now agreed that the two activities are sufficiently different as to be orthogonal.
I want to say something along the lines of "DAMN YOU AND YOUR LOGIC" but I would like to think I know better.

I should have recognized the outrageous claim my first post made.


Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Scrappers and brutes are the most well-rounded ATs. They do very well solo.

However, Scrappers are not necessary for teams. Blasters outdamage them (both single target and AoE, especially considering they have Build Up and Aim). Tankers are tougher and control aggro much better. Controllers, corruptors and defenders bring the debuffs required to take down large numbers of mobs and AVs efficiently. Dominators and controllers bring the mezzes that keep the team safer.

Personally, I find scrappers the least interesting to play on teams. The ranged ATs often kill my targets before I can close to attack. I'm also prone to scrapperlock, but only when I play scrappers. It's weird.

Scrappers are the only AT that isn't the best at anything -- even soloing. I find brutes solo better than scrappers.

That's not to say that they're worthless -- they're the most balanced overall. But you rarely need a scrapper on a team.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodion View Post
Scrappers and brutes are the most well-rounded ATs. They do very well solo.

However, Scrappers are not necessary for teams. Blasters outdamage them (both single target and AoE, especially considering they have Build Up and Aim). Tankers are tougher and control aggro much better. Controllers, corruptors and defenders bring the debuffs required to take down large numbers of mobs and AVs efficiently. Dominators and controllers bring the mezzes that keep the team safer.

Personally, I find scrappers the least interesting to play on teams. The ranged ATs often kill my targets before I can close to attack. I'm also prone to scrapperlock, but only when I play scrappers. It's weird.

Scrappers are the only AT that isn't the best at anything -- even soloing. I find brutes solo better than scrappers.

That's not to say that they're worthless -- they're the most balanced overall. But you rarely need a scrapper on a team.
100% agree. I think that's where scrapperlock comes from, to be honest. The fact that they're not needed in addition to the self sufficiency leads them to go off on their own.


Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

It's true that teams don't need Scrappers (or more accurately, Scrappers do not provide force multiplication effects on teams).

But now it is also true that Scrappers don't need teams to take on team-sized challenges. And as of this moment, that means being able to gather team-sized rewards on a single character, which is a useful thing.

This isn't unique to Scrappers, but Scrappers and Brutes are currently the only ATs with narrow enough and high enough performance bands that every combination in the AT is to some degree capable of it.* Which is an interesting situation that I expect will be closely watched.

* Tankers have the survivability, but don't universally have the damage. Stalkers always lag behind the other melee ATs in the area of AoE damage, by design. The other ATs all have too wide a performance band for definitive statements to be made at the AT level.


@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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