Are Scrappers Broken?
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2009-09-14 14:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Scrappers solo AV's because it's hard for them.
Controllers, I hear, solo AV's because it's easy for them.
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Ya cause scrappers are the best farmers...
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Originally Posted by SlimPickens
In the time it took any other AT to solo a GM the scrapper just defeated about 2000 mobs. And gathered all the rewards for so doing. How much was that GM worth?
Meanwhile, back at the auction house... |
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Personally, these days... I'm going to vote either Warshades, AoE MMs, blasters, or corruptors on -1/x8 difficulty are the best farmers.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Ya cause scrappers are the best farmers...
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Scrappers and brutes are very good for sure, but they are nowhere near the most powerful st or aoe toons in the game.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Yes, because single target debuffs (especially regeneration debuffs) and damage have exactly the same value against a single AV or GM over the course of 30 minutes as they do against 16 minions, lieutenants, and bosses over the course of ten seconds.
More seriously, yes, I'm well aware that certain builds of other ATs can meet or exceed Scrapper performance in general PvE. That doesn't change the fact that Scrappers (and Brutes) collectively are well-served by the build and challenge options available. The reason I consider this the golden age of the Scrapper is not so much because I necessarily expect things to get worse as because I don't see a realistic way for things to get better. Right now is a great time for characters with good AoE damage and moderate (enhanceable to excellent) survivability. |
The only AT that is really worth being envious of is Controllers because they are the most powerful toons in the game.
Top farming builds
Top AV killing builds
GM solo'ing options
Effective st dps that can surpass any scrapper (though I'm curious to see what dm/shield/blaze and fm/shield/blaze scrappers top out at).
I very much agree with your last sentence. My plant/kin/stone is looking forward to i16 as I'm pretty sure creepers let me go beyond the agro cap.
scrappers are LOL in PVP now though, blasters have everything they have and more damage because of the i13 changes -.-
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It tells me the grass always seems to be greener on the other side.
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Originally Posted by JohnX
Tankers: Scrappers do waaaay more damage than us AND have comparable defenses!
Brutes: Scrappers are better than us in PvP! Controllers: Scrappers do more DPS than us! Corruptors: Scrappers solo better than we do! Defenders: Scrappers do more damage, have higher defenses AND solo better than we do! Blasters: /faceplant Dominators: PToD doesnt affect Scrappers! Were worthless in big fights! Kheldians: We cant solo AVs like a Scrapper! Stalkers: I want to Scrap like a Scrapper! Blasters: SCRA!... /faceplant What does this tell you? |
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It tells me that he doesn't know how to play any AT with any level of competence.
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Originally Posted by Barata
It tells me the grass always seems to be greener on the other side.
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Where to now?
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
You know, this might be a bit of a naive point to make, but something tells me the OPs points would be true...if every other AT was trying to play exactly like a scrapper. IMO the only ATs that directly compare to Scrappers are the other melee ATs (Brutes, Tankers, and Stalkers), and really not even Tankers IMO since they're usually more focused on beefing up their survivability and not so much their damage.
Trying to compare, for instance, a Controller to a Scrapper is like comparing an apple to a pack of spaghetti noodles. They fulfill completely separate roles. Maybe it's just me, but when I make a Controller or a Defender I'm not typically looking to maximize my damage because that's not the role I feel those ATs were designed to fulfill. If I wanted to maximize damage I'd role a Blaster or Scrapper instead.
Like I said, my point might be a little naive, but I just feel that the OP is wrong based on his point of view that every single person in CoX is only concerned with maximizing damage, when they aren't.
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Every character's performance is limited by whether they can provide adequate survivability, and then by how much damage they can generate. |
Originally Posted by Kurugi
Like I said, my point might be a little naive, but I just feel that the OP is wrong based on his point of view that every single person in CoX is only concerned with maximizing damage, when they aren't.
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Just not necessarily their own survivability or damage.
@SPTrashcan
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My point was that if I'm playing a Controller I'm not going to whine about not being able to do as much damage as a Scrapper (as the OP suggests they would) because quite frankly A) I think it's a ridiculous thing to complain about, because you're basically complaining about something the AT just wasn't designed to do a lot of (with certain exceptions of course *cough*fire/kin*cough*), and B) because for me at least when I role a Controller or Defender I'm not looking to do tons upon tons of damage. IMO those aren't the right ATs to play if damage is your cup of tea. That's not to say there's a few combinations of Defenders and Controllers that can do good damage, I'm mainly just talking in general here.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Every character's performance is limited by whether they can provide adequate survivability, and then by how much damage they can generate.
Just not necessarily their own survivability or damage. |
Generally speaking a Scrapper/Blaster will do more damage than a Controller/Defender, so in general terms someone would be better off making a Scrapper/Blaster if damage is all they care about, and that's why I think it's silly to say "Controllers suck compared to Scrappers because Scrappers do a lot more damage". If that isn't a "well duh" statement I don't know what is...
My overall point is I just think it's unfair to compare two or more ATs to each whose roles are totally different. You don't invite a Controller to your team for the same reasons you invite a Scrapper, so why should they be compared on the same basis?
Hi all I'm n00b.
I also do not understand the purpose of the first post in this thread.
Doesn't the fact this game has different ArchTypes mean they would naturally have different capabilities?
Otherwise this game would only have two ATs: Hero & Villain.
And being that some would complain of the capabilities of Heroes and their counter parts or that someone would create a thread illustrating how they come across complaints from Heroes and Villains of the capabilities of their counter parts....should there only be one AT then?
Maybe the Devs should create a single AT with access to all power sets so people would no longer complain about the capabilities of one AT compared to another.
And maybe, just maybe..a person would not feel inclined to create a thread bringing to light the varying capabilities of different ATs since there would be only one AT.
Oopsie..but then even in a game with one AT, some out there would still complain of the capabilities of certain power set combinations and the lack of capabilities of the other power set combinations.
And then someone would again create a thread illustrating the seeming imbalance in the game.
As you can see, it's a never ending cycle.
Food for thought.
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I've been playing MMOs for over 6 years, and there's a few universal things I've noticed from game to game.|
Originally Posted by milehigh77
Hi all I'm n00b.
I also do not understand the purpose of the first post in this thread. Doesn't the fact this game has different ArchTypes mean they would naturally have different capabilities? Otherwise this game would only have two ATs: Hero & Villain. |
One of those things is the "grass is always greener" mentality that I think was mentioned previously in this thread. It's typical for players of one AT or class to feel that others have it better and they got the short end of the stick. What this really boils down to is that people are quicker to make not of other player's pros and their own cons.
This ties into the other thing: Players almost always blame the class before themselves, when most likely the opposite is more often true. What I mean is, if you take an average player and put him in a PvP situation and he gets his butt handed to him what's he most likely going to do?
A) Realize that maybe the class/AT just isn't for him and maybe he should play something else, or that he just can't play the game well.
B) Start cursing and complaining that the class itself is terrible and rush to the forums to make a post about it.
I'd wager that the majority of the buffs/nerfs many classes have received throughout MMOs weren't necessary to the actual balance of the game.
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The discussion thus far has had very little to do with what various ATs contribute to a team and very much to do with which ATs have good, or consistently good, solo performance - because it is these who stand to benefit from team size multipliers. On the other hand, force multiplier ATs benefit from SSK.|
Originally Posted by Kurugi
You don't invite a Controller to your team for the same reasons you invite a Scrapper, so why should they be compared on the same basis?
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Incidentally, it'll be interesting to see if the game segregates into two populations: soloists running multiplied missions alone, and force multipliers teaming up via SSK to take on TFs or +4 missions.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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And what exactly is a "force multiplier"? It sounds to me like you're suggesting SSK is going to turn CoX into a soloing game.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
The discussion thus far has had very little to do with what various ATs contribute to a team and very much to do with which ATs have good, or consistently good, solo performance - because it is these who stand to benefit from team size multipliers. On the other hand, force multiplier ATs benefit from SSK.
Incidentally, it'll be interesting to see if the game segregates into two populations: soloists running multiplied missions alone, and force multipliers teaming up via SSK to take on TFs or +4 missions. |
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A "force multiplier" in this context refers to characters with buff/debuff powers. For example, a typical Defender solo is somewhat anemic; a team of eight will squash just about anything, because they'll be massively buffed by each other and their targets debuffed into tissue paper.
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Originally Posted by Kurugi
And what exactly is a "force multiplier"? It sounds to me like you're suggesting SSK is going to turn CoX into a soloing game.
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Okay, I see I skipped a few steps in showing my work.|
Originally Posted by Kurugi
And what exactly is a "force multiplier"? It sounds to me like you're suggesting SSK is going to turn CoX into a soloing game.
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A force multiplier is a character whose powers increase the effectiveness of everyone on their team. The more teammates they have, the more value they generate. Force multipliers are generally less effective on their own because they only have their base effectiveness to multiply, but with enough teammates they contribute massively to damage and survivability.
SSK makes it much, much easier to form teams, since instead of choosing people at or near your level you can team with almost anyone. The easier it is to form teams, the better it is for force multipliers, who greatly increase the effectiveness of teams they join and reap the benefits. So, far from turning CoX into a soloing game, I think SSK will encourage teaming for characters who benefit from teams, which includes force multipliers and other specialists who are strong in one aspect but benefit from reinforcement in others (see: blasters, tankers).
On the other hand, characters who are neither force multipliers nor require reinforcement do not benefit as much from teams. Some portion of these characters have long farmed maps set for a team. Now that this can be accomplished via a simple difficulty setting rather than by asking for fillers, this kind of play has become much more accessible.
So, in short:
* Because of SSK, characters who team well will team more.
* Because of difficulty multipliers, characters who solo well will solo more.
None of what I've said in this thread has anything to do with who is more betterer. I'm just interested in seeing who will benefit most from what. And what I've noted is that scrappers, as an AT, will benefit more from difficulty multipliers because they can solo well.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Ahh, I understand now. Please excuse my ignorance and thanks for taking the time to explain 
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A force multiplication, this is where team members can be encouraged to let go and unleash more no? If so I think scrappers can provide force multiplication just not to the extent of other ATs because they are already a force unto themselves.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
It's true that teams don't need Scrappers (or more accurately, Scrappers do not provide force multiplication effects on teams).
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Scrappers: Working as intended
OP: Has Problem
Problem: Too much fail
Removal of fail: Advised
Exclamation: Strewth
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Scrappers never provide force multiplication. They provide large force addition, as do ATs such as Blasters, Brutes and Stalkers. Each one you add to the team adds a large amount of damage potential. (Other ATs also provide this direct addition, but generally in smaller degrees.)|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
A force multiplication, this is where team members can be encouraged to let go and unleash more no? If so I think scrappers can provide force multiplication just not to the extent of other ATs because they are already a force unto themselves.
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Force multiplication means you take what force you already have on the team and, quite literally, multiply it by some scale factor. ATs like Defenders, Corruptors and Controllers have very strong capabilities in this regard, although they also do other things. Adding one Defender to a team of heroes can, with powers like Enervating Field or Tar Patch, cause the existing team to do 130% of its damage without them. Adding a Kinetics character can cause a team to do 200-250% of their damage without them (if they can saturate Fulcrum Shift on the whole team and depending on whether the team's characer's damage buff caps are +300% or +400%). Adding both types of Defender is multiplicative with itself - a team with saturated FS fighting foes on a Tar Patch are doing 260-325% damage.
You're never going to be able to add that kind of damage by adding on 1-2 damage dealers.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
A force multiplication, this is where team members can be encouraged to let go and unleash more no? If so I think scrappers can provide force multiplication just not to the extent of other ATs because they are already a force unto themselves.
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Ahhh..but 0x a billion is still zero, scrappers give you something TO multiply
The more people I meet, the more I'm beginning to root for the zombies.
Anecdotal input:
My 50 Plant/Rad troller and 50 Bots/FF MM both solo much easier than my Fire/SR (44) and Kat/Dark (50) scrappers. And those scrappers solo very well. But the troller and MM are much safer to play and can manage larger spawns more quickly.
I love scrappers, and they are extremely well-balanced AT (and have been for ages), but it is not a fair statement to assume they are OP'd. This game is not that hard. Any AT played well is OP'd compared to an AT played mediocre.
TD;DR: OP is wrong.
53 Bots/FF/Mace Mastermind | 53 NRG/FF/Electricity Defender | 50 Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender | 50 Demons/FF/Mace Mastermind | 51 Necro/Dark/Soul Mastermind | 50 Thugs/Time/Mace Mastermind | 50 Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker | 50 Plant/Rad/Earth Controller | 50 Illusion/Trick Arrow Controller | 50 Gravity/Force Field Controller
Yes, I like Force Fields.
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Originally Posted by Chill_Out
Anecdotal input:
My 50 Plant/Rad troller and 50 Bots/FF MM both solo much easier than my Fire/SR (44) and Kat/Dark (50) scrappers. And those scrappers solo very well. But the troller and MM are much safer to play and can manage larger spawns more quickly. I love scrappers, and they are extremely well-balanced AT (and have been for ages), but it is not a fair statement to assume they are OP'd. This game is not that hard. Any AT played well is OP'd compared to an AT played mediocre. TD;DR: OP is wrong. |
There you have it. Any AT played well is the best AT!
When I'm on a team I don't care whom does the most damage, I care that we have good synergy. As for solo play, to each their own.
@MARTy McFly
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Fixt.
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Originally Posted by JohnX
Tankers: “Scrappers do waaaay more damage than us AND have comparable defenses! Even though we dont have the same Caps, HP or ability to take Heavy hits without Extreme IOing that can close the Gaps immensely and make Tanks Gods”
Brutes: “Scrappers are better than us in PvP! But since all melee sucks in general thats like saying Im angry they get 7th and Im 8th!” Controllers: “Scrappers do more DPS than us! Even though we're a control AT and Damage Dealing is not our Main Purpose!” Corruptors: “Scrappers solo better than we do! Even though Scrappers are the Primary Heroside Soloing AT and Corrupters are a Team Oriented Offensive/Buff-Debuff Mixture and this complaint is invalid!” Defenders: “Scrappers do more damage, have higher defenses AND solo better than we do! SEE CORRUPTERS” Blasters: …/faceplant, lrn2blaster Dominators: “PToD doesn’t affect Scrappers! We’re worthless in big fights! And thats a Scrappers fault how? You can still deal damage similar to a scrapper” Kheldians: “We can’t solo AVs like a Scrapper! lol, Kheldians.” Stalkers: “I want to Scrap like a Scrapper! If you cant scrap like a scrapper on your Stalker why are you playing?” Blasters: “SCRA!...” /faceplant, SEE BLASTER. |
My first 50 was a Scapper and she was pretty awesome. However it didn't take long to realize I wasn't the best at a few things. I didn't know what a farm was at first, and I got invited to this PuG and they were clearing out that street map filled with Demons. Lots of Trollers and Defenders on that team. No tank, so I figured they'd want me to sort of off-tank, take alpha for them...
No, no, they just launched themselves into the huge mobs with their gobs of pets, buffs, and AoEs. I'd get off a Crane Kick or two, but then the whole mob would be dead! I was thinking, holy crap!!! In these scenarios, it was clear which ATs seemed more powerful and efficient.
To make myself feel a bit better, I started singling out the bosses in the mobs. At least I got more than a couple of attacks in before all the regular mobs were down and the other ATs finished off the bosses for me.
My uber level 50 Scrapper, with decent IOs, and now I know what that PuG really wanted me for - as a filler