Reduced XP for Freakshow now
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2009-08-28 14:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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You're certainly entitled to your opinions on the rest of your post, so I'll only address this part.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
*The "problem" has never once been mentioned on the forums or in the game as an exploit or a problem, but the minute a nerf is announced The Usual Suspects begin high-fiving each other like their favorite candidate just won Class President or something. I find this behavior childish in the extreme. |
I'm just not seeing what you are with this. At best, the 'Usual Suspects' as you call them, are unsurprised when a nerf happens. Oh, I understand, there are a couple who take pleasure in such a thing, but I ignore those people. It's not worth my angst worrying about them. The same can be said of the very few Doom type posters...I generally ignore them.
Although an argument can be made that the Freak nerf is too harsh, there's no denying that they were perhaps the most sought after group teams wished to fight, AE or no. And for good reason. As the majority who have posted in this thread, I'm not surprised their XP was nerfed. I will say that I'm with the majority here that the nerf was a bit too harsh. And I have faith(call me a fanboi to your heart's content) that the Dev's will adjust accordingly if needed.
We have some pretty intelligent Dev's working for us. They also happen to play the game, probably more than we think. I for one, have confidence they have the majority of the player base in mind, combined with the integrity of the game, with whatever changes they make.
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Is it REALLY that bad? Not kill-per-kill but compared to a NORMAL dev-created story arc. When you play for 3 hours, how much less XP/hour difference is there really?|
Originally Posted by Paladin_Musashi
I fight fires in Steel too.
The real problem is that no matter that the forum police give the impression that the majority of players don't play just for XP by shouting down everyone else... The fact is the opposite. The vast majority of players are influenced by rewards. Significantly. To the point that if this change goes through the only way you'll be able to play the AE missions is solo. Because good luck trying to find anyone to join your team. |
Most of what I'm seeing either compares
- kill-for-kill, ignoring that MA arcs offer faster kill rates due to the lack of elements in dev-created content like in-zone travel, inter-zone travel, delivery missions, stops to make inventory space, etc.
OR
- Pre-Nerf MA XP to post-nerf MA XP... ignoring how either of these relate to the other content in the game.
Yes, the reward-centric people will leave MA and never come back if there's a significant disadvantage compared to other parts of the game... so how bad is that difference?
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Definitely.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Our viewpoints don't seem THAT opposing. Neither of us want something so underrewarding that it becomes irrelevant.
-If you look at per-kill levels, yes, a substantial reduction in XP reward in Mission Architect would appear underperforming and drive off players. -If you calculate in the whole experience of one evening, people testify time and again that Mission Architect is capable of rewards that are substantially over and above the rest of the game. That's one of the reasons that it's so central to so many players. |
A substantial portion of the playerbase is camped out in the lobby, and it ain't because of the sexy interior design and cool Matrix waterfall.
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| As you noted in another thread, MA has no low-xp delivery missions, no insane cross-zone travelling, and no in-zone traveling for that matter. With "ticket" rewards, players don't have to worry about taking a moment to sell to make room in inventory when full either. There's no 'return to contact' wait either. |
If I run a good sized mission in the 'real' world, I'll get maybe one or two IO recipe drops, a couple of generic recipe drops and one or two handfuls of salvage.
If I run an MA mission, all of those potential drops become currency I can use to buy what I want. Forget those crummy generic recipes, forget that crummy salvage (even with prices topping 100k, it's still not a cost effective choice)...gimme those set IOs!
One run on a 'normal' MA map will get me 5 or so Bronze rolls.
On a farming map that # is substantially higher.
Even ignoring things like the ludicrous inf from boss farms & the potential for massive exp, MA is still 'better' than regular content from a reward standpoint.
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| There advantages keep the reward/hour significantly high, even with the steps the devs have already taken. |
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| I really am "casual" on the XP metric. I never really looked to optimize and only casually use MA to follow arcs of people I know. I never "bridged" and the closest I've had to a farm was doing nothing but RWZ missions to get enough Vanguard tokens for a full costume without doing a mothership raid (still don't have the damn helmet). I'm not saying this out of a sense of moral superiority, I'm saying this to stress that I'm NOT a good judge of how great MA rewards actually are right now because I don't really care. I'm relying on the testimony of others- people that USE and LOVE the MA's rate of reward and rave about them. |
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| The trick is, without SOME adjustment that focuses on the overall experience, then you'll keep having the dev's content be just as irrelevant as you seem to fear MA becoming. |
As long as it rewards roughly the same as the 'real' game, plenty of folks will keep on using it.
I like their strategy to lure farmers back out of MA by allowing us to set our on map spawn sizes- I think it's going to work really well, provided they get the drop issue sorted.
I'm not as sure about their MA nerfs, which have some people I respect who are a lot more familiar with the system than I am pretty nervous.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
I rarely agree with BI about anything, but there is absolutely a clique of regulars I alternately call the Kontent Kops or the Purity Police who leap around cheering and chest-bumping like drunken louts at a college football game whenever they think a balance change is aimed at the farmers/exploiters/dirty wrong people who don't play right.|
Originally Posted by Ignatz
You're certainly entitled to your opinions on the rest of your post, so I'll only address this part.
I'm just not seeing what you are with this. At best, the 'Usual Suspects' as you call them, are unsurprised when a nerf happens. |
They think everyone should play the game exactly as they do, and anyone who doesn't should be driven out of the game for the good of the community.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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When you consider that the per-kill is lower, you don't get patrol XP, and there's no mission completion award? Yeah, it's that bad.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Is it REALLY that bad? Not kill-per-kill but compared to a NORMAL dev-created story arc. When you play for 3 hours, how much less XP/hour difference is there really?
Most of what I'm seeing either compares - kill-for-kill, ignoring that MA arcs offer faster kill rates due to the lack of elements in dev-created content like in-zone travel, inter-zone travel, delivery missions, stops to make inventory space, etc. OR - Pre-Nerf MA XP to post-nerf MA XP... ignoring how either of these relate to the other content in the game. Yes, the reward-centric people will leave MA and never come back if there's a significant disadvantage compared to other parts of the game... so how bad is that difference? |
I mean, running AE maps with minion/lt/boss cherry picked from an existing faction will still be fine. But custom mobs? Yeah, it'll be so bad no one will touch it. Which is really irritating to me.
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Not denying this...just pointing out that they are a vocal minority, and should be ignored accordingly.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I rarely agree with BI about anything, but there is absolutely a clique of regulars I alternately call the Kontent Kops or the Purity Police who leap around cheering and chest-bumping like drunken louts at a college football game whenever they think a balance change is aimed at the farmers/exploiters/dirty wrong people who don't play right.
They think everyone should play the game exactly as they do, and anyone who doesn't should be driven out of the game for the good of the community. |
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I rarely agree with BI about anything, but there is absolutely a clique of regulars I alternately call the Kontent Kops or the Purity Police who leap around cheering and chest-bumping like drunken louts at a college football game whenever they think a balance change is aimed at the farmers/exploiters/dirty wrong people who don't play right.
They think everyone should play the game exactly as they do, and anyone who doesn't should be driven out of the game for the good of the community. |
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Originally Posted by Ignatz
Not denying this...just pointing out that they are a vocal minority, and should be ignored accordingly.
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All the people that think any kind of balancing move by the devs is on par with genocide;
The folks that run four accounts simultaneously in a PvP zone and act like they succeed at one on one;
Everyone that states they're being persecuted by evil forum cabals;
Posters that spew nothing but negativity about the game while failing to realize that they could just cancel their subscriptions;
And Especially that cadre of "special" posters that have been claiming that the game is doomed since it went live.
Did I miss any groups of note?
Be well, people of CoH.
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Forum Sig Police.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Agreed. While we're at it, we should also be ignoring:
All the people that think any kind of balancing move by the devs is on par with genocide; The folks that run four accounts simultaneously in a PvP zone and act like they succeed at one on one; Everyone that states they're being persecuted by evil forum cabals; Posters that spew nothing but negativity about the game while failing to realize that they could just cancel their subscriptions; And Especially that cadre of "special" posters that have been claiming that the game is doomed since it went live. Did I miss any groups of note? |
Grammar Gurus (avoiding evoking Godwin here)
Anyone who has EVER implied any entitlement is due to them for their $15/mo.
Rian_Frostdrake's costume advice. (trust me... even he'd agree.)
Anyone that didn't like my comic guides.
Anyone that wastes time doing comic guides.
Anyone that should be working on his comic guide rather than forum trolling.
... what was the topic again?
How does this compare to that high level Family nerf last year? I found that to be pretty horrible as they seem to give about 1/3 what any other villain group does. If Freaks are just 80% of Council that is annoying but not as bad.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
per Culex:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=125627
High level family are 0.4
I saw this queried as a 'should be added' somewhere upthread.
Most Tsoo have a 1.2 modifier, Sorcs and yellow ink men are 1.4, and a few of the basic lowbie types are 1.0.
Vahz Bosses are a very tasty 1.8
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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With the SSK stuff where you can get exp (except at 50) even when exemplared, Vahz bosses are looking very tasty.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
per Culex:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=125627 High level family are 0.4 I saw this queried as a 'should be added' somewhere upthread. Most Tsoo have a 1.2 modifier, Sorcs and yellow ink men are 1.4, and a few of the basic lowbie types are 1.0. Vahz Bosses are a very tasty 1.8 |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
The hilarious thing is that Vahz bosses are cake for most melee toons. They don't really hit all that hard, you have status protection they can't break, and they're vulnerable to lethal damage in a really noticeable way.
My broadsword scrapper loved them. Axe tankers love them too.
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
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First off not farmers fault.
Secondly why is anyone surprised? Hasnt issue 16 been mostly about slowing down leveling? No bridging, forcing -1 teams, MA nerfs, now real world xp nerfs.
Though maybe 1.2 was to high, it depends again greatly on the toon your using to fight them. A farmer finds most groups in the game a push over honestly. Some more trouble then others, but could probably fight anything, they choose freakshow because of the rewards and the ease to them yes.
However a non-farmer, like say a blaster, freakshow are not that big of a pushover, they hit hard, they have holds/sleeps, rezs, dull pain etc. Which i think is why they included the xtra xp anyway.
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That's it! From now on, I make only blasters to prove that I'm not a farmer.|
Originally Posted by QuiJon
However a non-farmer, like say a blaster
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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Originally Posted by QuiJon
First off not farmers fault.
Secondly why is anyone surprised? Hasnt issue 16 been mostly about slowing down leveling? No bridging, forcing -1 teams, MA nerfs, now real world xp nerfs. Though maybe 1.2 was to high, it depends again greatly on the toon your using to fight them. A farmer finds most groups in the game a push over honestly. Some more trouble then others, but could probably fight anything, they choose freakshow because of the rewards and the ease to them yes. However a non-farmer, like say a blaster, freakshow are not that big of a pushover, they hit hard, they have holds/sleeps, rezs, dull pain etc. Which i think is why they included the xtra xp anyway. |
Well that's somewhat of an overstatement, I think. Super Sidekicking kills bridges, sure, but they've been trying to kill bridging forever. And meanwhile, the average pick up group's leveling speed will increase dramatically with this change.
Also, they've increased xp from 1-20 to plow through the dull part of the game faster. So it's not like they're trying to bog us down at all. They just swung the nerf bat a touch too hard on this one.
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
I didn't read the topic, but I have some questions (sorry if they were already asked):
Why Freakshow? Why now?
Before I14, Freakshows were farmed, over and over. I know, there also was Behemots and before that, The Family. They could have nerfed Freakshow a thousand time beetween Family's nerf and I14, but they didn't.
Then I14 comes, with all the PL that goes with it. People that PL totally forgot that Freakshow exists, and they started farming... some Praetorians boss, custom mobs, or whatever you want, but Freakshow were definitely less popular than they've been.
And here comes I16. "New difficulty settings". Oh yeah, I totaly love that, and trust me, even if they didn't have nerfed Freakshow, who would have take "Close dimensional rupture" (Freakshow one) out again? I can't see this "nerf" as a "anti-PL", since I can't see why people would farm Freakshow with the "new diffculty settings" thing, that allow them to... well, clear a map full of whatever you want set for 8 with only 2 guys in. There are SO many mobs that have a greater XP/min ratio than Freakshow.
So, why them, why now? I totally admit that 1.4 and 1.2 modifiers were to high for what they are (and I also think 0.8 and 1.0 are too low), but you know, there are plenty, and I do mean plenty, of other mobs that need to be "balanced" when it comes to the XP/difficulty thing.
Because as I see it, it will only affect people that are playing beetween lvl 25-40... and oh, guess what, the "XP-boost" just stop at lvl 24... what a coincidence... too bad for Freaklympics lovers.
Then, what should they do? Well, two solutions. They could give Freakshow "reasonable" modifiers, at least in the 25-40 range (if think it has already been mentioned that they can be kind of "pain in the a**" with their heal/stun/end drain/hold/"OMG that boss OS me"/etc... when you are "low" lvl). I think 1.0 would be good for Min/Lieut, and something like 1.1 for bosses. At higher lvl I have to agree that they are less difficult than Malta or Carnies for example, but... that lead us to the second solution, which is kind of impossible, but it's a "global idea": balance XP for EVERY faction in the game, because at this time, there are too many incoherence when it comes to XP/difficulty.
But it's the same as Merit: difficulty is TOTALY dependent on what you play, with who you're playing... I mean, a firekin troller could have an Y xp/min with faction A, and 5*Y xp/min with faction B, where a scrapper would have 5*Y with A and Y with B (I hope I made myself clear with that).
So, having a "correct" XP/diffculty thing is totaly subjective therefore kind of impossible...
But I think I'm moving away from the topic, but it was to say that the XP/difficulty mean nothing, so having reasonable modifier for freakshow, at least at lower lvls, would be kind of logical, since you can't make it all "even", don't try to make one "even-ier" than the other, just try and keep it "correct" (it was not with 1.2 modifier, and it's still not with 0.8).
tl;dr: 1.0 for Min/Lieut, 1.1 for bosses would be great for non-lvl 50 freakshows.
Ugh. I'm only just seeing this. I think 1.0 is a fine modifier, but 0.8 is too low. Well, at least through level 40. It looks like, for me, since I like doing newspaper missions against freaks, that the 30s just got slow again.
*shrug*
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
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"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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my fire/ice farming blaster begs to differ!|
Originally Posted by QuiJon
However a non-farmer, like say a blaster.....
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>:f
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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What "doom"? A minority of us [or so it feels] are not waving pom-poms and cheering about how great it is that we're getting yet another nerf, and this is "crying doom"? If ever I cry doom, you and everyone else will know it. I am not "crying doom." I am remarking that if Freaks become worth less than other groups to fight, I am picking up my toys and moving over to Council missions, or whatever. Council bore me but I refuse to play for reduced rewards if there is any way around it. |
Originally Posted by TeChameleon
Take the doom and shove it. This is a relatively minor change, even as overnerfed as it is.
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And therefore my reading comprehension is just fine. I could well remark that perhaps you need to adjust yours, because you [and a few others] are reading me say one thing and understanding that as another. "Reduced xp for Freaks? Fine... no more Freaks then" DOES NOT = DOOM.
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| - You know, my suggestion to the devs would be: FIX the old, busted, dull, fedex-to-hell-and-back, random-zoning, muddled-ordered content from back in the day before trying to shove people out of the AE buildings. Some of the 'classic' content is great (I just finished the Freaklympics again, and it's still a ton of fun), but other bits of it... well, let's hold up Quaterhell as the most egregious offender. You do, quite literally, the same mission (on a large, four-level map) three times in a row, identical in every way at least once, and other missions are cloned liberally throughout the TF. |
The Citadel TF where you fight the SAME Council on the SAME DAMN MAP for what? 15 missions? [sure feels like 15] is an example of STUPID [yes I said stupid] developer content. Why not fix this?! Would not this be more welcome than a nerf?
Not to mention, the developers send very mixed signals. First they add modifiers to allow one to level faster depending on where you are. Or they create Mission Architect. THEN, its "OMG they're leveling too fast!! Quick, nerf something!!!!" and I say, either allow people to level fast or keep things at the crawl they used to be before they decided to modify leveling speed. But quit flip-flopping.
"TA-DA! here's the MIssion Architect, have fun people!"
*a million people gain a million fast levels*
"OMG! They're leveling too fast DOOOOO SOMETHING!" *ban-hammer*
Its really ridiculous if you stop and think about it.
hey devs...clue for ya...
when you nerf everything...then scale down xp not once but twice...do you ever think its cause your bored and cant think of anything else to do?
wuts next?..rebalance the balancing that you did on the reblanced pvp from the orginal balancing?
wait wut!??!
star wars old republic cant come quick enough sometimes
p.s...i never asked for the a.e...so as far as im concerned you can take it out of the game and throw it next to the pile of bad ideas like nerfing cm and skills and e.d
stop nerfing stuff for the fanbois..the 10 of you wont have jobs if ya keep it up
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Umm...|
Originally Posted by Coldmed
hey devs...clue for ya...
when you nerf everything...then scale down xp not once but twice...do you ever think its cause your bored and cant think of anything else to do? |
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| wait wut!??! |
XP scaled down twice? Look, take less of your namesake before posting, please.
Nerf everything? "wait wut!??!"
You do realize that without a lot of explanations and qualifiers most of your post reads like you don't actually play or know anything about the game, right?
There have been a lot of buffs to the game in the past year or so, and leveling speed for almost all players has been increased in that period. Unless today was opposite day i think your post was pretty farcical on its face. Eh, what?
That's not to say there haven't been some overcorrections and mistakes, but nothing like what you're gibbering about.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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I realize that hyperbole is Teh Debbil to most people out here; but this does not affect the soundness of his foundation argument. |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
There have been a lot of buffs to the game in the past year or so, and leveling speed for almost all players has been increased in that period. Unless today was opposite day i think your post was pretty farcical on its face. Eh, what?
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We got a lot of buffs recently. Then came the ban-hammer if people leveled too fast, and now comes an xp nerf to one of the most popular enemy groups in the game. I really would rather not have buffs if they are going to be stealth-rescinded later on. My guess [I SAID "GUESS," FOR THE READING-IMPAIRED. COGNITION, PLEASE] is that this Freakshow nerf will be followed hard and fast by several other nerfs to other enemy NPC groups, xp-wise. I will be extremely surprised if this does not happen.
I'd much rather they spend their time doing more useful stuff; but this is just me. Just take Freakshow out of MA missions, problem solved, next please. They took mitos out, they could take Freaks out. Do it and leave the xp alone. I am extremely opposed to regular-content players being punished for what people do in MA - sort of like how I don't like PvE being punished for the sins of PvP.
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... There was a Family nerf?! Missed that.... probably because I refuse to run Family missions unless forced. I don't run those because Family bosses also run. Between bosses running like so many hyperactive little screaming girls and them Sniping my level 10 melee-character from a half-mile away/through walls, yeah.... I don't bother with them anymore. |
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
How does this compare to that high level Family nerf last year? I found that to be pretty horrible as they seem to give about 1/3 what any other villain group does. If Freaks are just 80% of Council that is annoying but not as bad.
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See, its that risk/nuisance/reward thing again.
Not too long ago I took my SoA through that 'capture Crimson" mission. It is well known that Crimson runs, and I had no intention of trying to catch him; but this time he ran straight through a solid wall. I laughed out loud and waited for him to hit the outer door.
They've changed it to where he no longer does that, so the mission no longer auto-fails. So what did i do? Did I dutifully go chase him as he ran like an Olympic sprinter through what felt like 50 miles of sewer? Nope. I exited and dropped.
People like me are going to take a knife to that Gordian knot every time something borks the risk/reward/nuisance ratio. Every time.
Yeah, I don't really care about the Freak change, except to say that I'll never fight them again because they're annoying and they give low exp.
If you read my giant flaming rant, that's about the AE changes. Which lots of people think are great.