Reduced XP for Freakshow now
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2009-08-28 14:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
I'm a little surprised to see you piling on, Bill, as you're usually more thoughtful than that. <shrug>|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
hey... everyone in here dumping on Xyzyx for his statement...
Please carry on. |
The high nail gets pounded down, yes, and I'm not at all surprised by (or even opposed to) the Freakshow XP change. But to suggest that this change wasn't made specifically because they've been farmed to death is either disingenuous or naive. And yes, the devs set the awards, and no, it's not surprising that players went after the low-hanging fruit, but if they hadn't to a statistically significant degree this change would've been unnecessary.
Arc 55669 - Tales of the PPD: One Hell of a Deal (video trailer)
Arc 64511 - The Wrecking Ball
Arc 1745 - The Trouble With Trimbles
Arc 302901 - HappyCorpse
Quote:
Vahz perhaps? And what is the modifier for CoT and Tsoo? With all the bags of tricks those two groups have, it seems like their XP should be above 1.0.
|
Originally Posted by 8_Ball
are there any groups left that actually give higher than standard xp?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Xyzyx
I'm a little surprised to see you piling on, Bill, as you're usually more thoughtful than that. <shrug>
The high nail gets pounded down, yes, and I'm not at all surprised by (or even opposed to) the Freakshow XP change. But to suggest that this change wasn't made specifically because they've been farmed to death is either disingenuous or naive. And yes, the devs set the awards, and no, it's not surprising that players went after the low-hanging fruit, but if they hadn't to a statistically significant degree this change would've been unnecessary. |
And if I took the long way to work, I'd be late every day ...
Quote:
Not according to Culex's spreadsheet. They're 1.0 across the board unless they've been changed since last year.
|
Originally Posted by Tyrantula
I'm no kind of numbers guy, but isn't the Council already one of the lowest anyway?
|
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
Yeah, nobody really dreads fighting Freaks, and I had a theory that they were going to become the next farming sensation after boss farms were flattened. Some good foresight from the devs for once.
Quote:
Clockwork are all 1.2. |
Originally Posted by 8_Ball
are there any groups left that actually give higher than standard xp? I'm thinking everything in the shadow shard should at least be double.
|
Tsoo are 1.2
Longbow vary but are mostly 1.1.
Lots of groups have higher mods for LTs and bosses, like CoT. But I don't see any high level groups besides Longbow that are consistently higher than 1.0. I don't see data in Culex's tables for Vanguard but I'd guess they're > 1.0. EDIT: I didn't see data for Rularuu either, which leads me to believe they're set at 1.0, which if true is absurd. My SR scrapper votes to give those Eyeball bosses a 9000 XP mod.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
I thought Arachnos also had a higher XP modifier. I could always be wrong, of course.
Tsoo definitely deserve to be 1.2, with Sorcs being worth extra. They've got control spewing forth from all orifices, varied and powerful bosses, and an actual effective support unit.
For being found in the same level range as the Freakshow, the Tsoo are definitely the more dreaded villain group.
Castle's 3rd point is rather weak, however. Yes, we can get 200% XP off of them 20% of the time, but we still do need to beat them down yet again for it. That point really doesn't go one way or the other. It's pretty neutral.
They probably should be worth just as much as everything else. I mean, they do have dull pain.
Quote:
Pretty much how I see it - I never really understood some teams liking Freaks because they 'give double xp' - they gave effectively higher xp than normal, but not double when the extra effort of a second beatdown was considered. |
Originally Posted by MrQuizzles
Castle's 3rd point is rather weak, however. Yes, we can get 200% XP off of them 20% of the time, but we still do need to beat them down yet again for it. That point really doesn't go one way or the other. It's pretty neutral.
They probably should be worth just as much as everything else. I mean, they do have dull pain. |
And there's been many times I've seen teams come unstuck when they forgot about rezzers and effectively got a small boss ambush just as the spawn they're fighting Dull Pain themselves...
The higher xp modifiers should have been reduced back to 1.0, but I'm not sure about dropping to 0.8.
As been said, it's pretty minor though - I'll still love the look of freaks (Tetsuo with a mohawk - how can you go wrong?) and either hate them or feel neutral to them combat-wise depending on character strengths/weaknesses. Exactly as they've always been.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
Quote:
What the hell does that even mean? It's like one sentence was fired out of a cannon and smashed into another sentence, forming a sort of mangled mess. I can sort of parse some of it, but what is the overall meaning an intention behind this?
|
Originally Posted by Coldmed
just another example how the devs nerf things then in a year raise the xp to lvl faster good jobs!
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
For a solid damage dealer, a resurrecting minion is two extra swings with no travel time. Resurrecting enemies also means more enemies per map without a very significant increase in time taken to complete. It's rare you'll see full-spawn resurrects, and that CAN drag things on significantly, but the occasional resser is still only a mild roadbump for a lot of extra experience.
|
Originally Posted by Judgement_Dave
Pretty much how I see it - I never really understood some teams liking Freaks because they 'give double xp' - they gave effectively higher xp than normal, but not double when the extra effort of a second beatdown was considered.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Players will gravitate toward the most efficient reward path.|
Originally Posted by Sitriel
You mean, people were forced to farm Freakshow missions, because the evil devs gave them a too high xp modifier so that the only possibility to stop the abuse of Freakshow missions was to drastically reduce the rewards?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eisenzahn
The word "blaming" suggests that they did something wrong here. The risk/reward ratio for Freaks has been off for quite a while, and this is definitely an easier solution than making them more dangerous. What you see as persecuting an "innocent" segment of the player population, I see as fixing design flaws.
|
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
The other day I did the Diviner Maros arc on a new Brute I've been leveling. I've always found that arc to be annoying as hell, but tolerated it because the xp was really good for it. Now? I doubt I'll ever touch it again on any character. Somehow I rather doubt this is what the Dev's wanted, but I guess that's too bad. I'm not going to bother with annoying missions for a potentially sub-standard reward. It's all too common for me to do a Freakshow mission and have very few (or even none) of them self rez. In that situation the xp from them won't be worth my time. I guess this will apply to pretty much any Freakshow arc too. Too great a chance that the rewards will be mediocre to make it worth fooling with them, especially given how annoying they are to squishies.
Quote:
Actually it's, uh, the Devs are making the Freakshow xp reduction retroactive to a year ago (somehow) and increasing lower level xp in the present?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What the hell does that even mean? It's like one sentence was fired out of a cannon and smashed into another sentence, forming a sort of mangled mess. I can sort of parse some of it, but what is the overall meaning an intention behind this?
|
Someone drank too much of their namesake?
I had one grunch, but the eggplant over there?
A wizard did it?
Spoon!
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
Which squishies, specifically, find them annoying? Certainly none of my controllers, defenders, blasters, doms or corruptors have. Freakshow have always been a cakewalk.
|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
Too great a chance that the rewards will be mediocre to make it worth fooling with them, especially given how annoying they are to squishies.
|
Now they should give the Tsoo a bonus XP modifier since everyone skips them for being tough enemies. Not that they're really so bad...they're just not reviving sacks of meat and bonus XP like the Freakshow were.
Bonus XP for CoT ghosts too. Stupid resistant to everything acc debuffing ghosts, there's a reason people don't like you until you turn into weaksauce thorn casters.
Quote:
See, here's how it works. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What the hell does that even mean? It's like one sentence was fired out of a cannon and smashed into another sentence, forming a sort of mangled mess. I can sort of parse some of it, but what is the overall meaning an intention behind this?
|
If the devs make any nerf to XP for any reason, no matter how unbalanced or justified the thing is they're changing, they're not allowed to raise leveling/xp in any manner for any level range, because they would make them socialist flip flopping hypocrites!!!!1111!!!!11!!
_______________________
Currently listening to 20 Miles' R.L. Boyce Othar Turner Fife & Drum Spam
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
Quote:
Plus the psi damage. Plus you don't have a lot of powers well slotted for acc in the level range that you fight ghosts. But then you get to earth thorns and miss the ghosts.|
Originally Posted by Iannis
Now they should give the Tsoo a bonus XP modifier since everyone skips them for being tough enemies. Not that they're really so bad...they're just not reviving sacks of meat and bonus XP like the Freakshow were.
Bonus XP for CoT ghosts too. Stupid resistant to everything acc debuffing ghosts, there's a reason people don't like you until you turn into weaksauce thorn casters. |
_______________________
Currently listening to 20 Miles' R.L. Boyce Othar Turner Fife & Drum Spam
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
Quote:
The answer should be obvious, but I'll indulge you a bit. I personally find them annoying from time to time on any of the AT's you mentioned. Is that better?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Which squishies, specifically, find them annoying? Certainly none of my controllers, defenders, blasters, doms or corruptors have. Freakshow have always been a cakewalk.
|
As for "always being a cakewalk" are you referring to 40+ play or characters in the 20-40 range? That makes a big difference to the conversation. I will agree that for characters above 40 they are very easy. But, you know, there are other parts of the game. And for the lower level ranges where you can find Freakshow, I personally feel lowering their XP is unjustified as in that level range their challenge level is completely in line with other enemy types. For that reason I say make their modifier 1.0, not 0.8.
On a side note: I ran a Freakshow paper mission about an hour ago. Two of them self-rezzed in the entire mission. So for that mission, in I16, the XP reward would have been below average.
Quote:
then you should leave earlier to compensate for taking the long way. Its not rocket science.|
Originally Posted by Folonius
And if I took the long way to work, I'd be late every day ...
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
The answer should be obvious, but I'll indulge you a bit. I personally find them annoying from time to time on any of the AT's you mentioned. Is that better?
As for "always being a cakewalk" are you referring to 40+ play or characters in the 20-40 range? That makes a big difference to the conversation. I will agree that for characters above 40 they are very easy. But, you know, there are other parts of the game. And for the lower level ranges where you can find Freakshow, I personally feel lowering their XP is unjustified as in that level range their challenge level is completely in line with other enemy types. For that reason I say make their modifier 1.0, not 0.8. On a side note: I ran a Freakshow paper mission about an hour ago. Two of them self-rezzed in the entire mission. So for that mission, in I16, the XP reward would have been below average. |
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
Quote:
If the devs reduce their xp too much most players will avoid them.|
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
then you should leave earlier to compensate for taking the long way. Its not rocket science.
|
Not many people pay attention to numbers, but in my experience the 'average' player has a very sensitive radar for content that under-rewards as well as content that over-rewards.
Quote:
| For me, at any level with any AT, they can be annoying, but not hard. |
Should the devs just nerf rewards across the board, do you think?
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
I'm referring to *all the time.* I play at various levels from day to day - not just my 50s, not just lowbies. Other than the self rez, there's just nothing all that special about them. No holds (Stunners Tesla cage is a sleep, only irritating if it's the last power used on you,) no particularly special abilities, not even particularly tedious. No exotic damage - for a lowbie, the Vahz toxic damage can be horrendous by comparison. |
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
The answer should be obvious, but I'll indulge you a bit. I personally find them annoying from time to time on any of the AT's you mentioned. Is that better?
As for "always being a cakewalk" are you referring to 40+ play or characters in the 20-40 range? That makes a big difference to the conversation. I will agree that for characters above 40 they are very easy. But, you know, there are other parts of the game. And for the lower level ranges where you can find Freakshow, I personally feel lowering their XP is unjustified as in that level range their challenge level is completely in line with other enemy types. For that reason I say make their modifier 1.0, not 0.8. |
Won't argue with 1.0 across all ranks instead of 0.8, out of the minor "threat" rezzing can be, but a *bonus* for fighting them is just not warranted. It is for the Tsoo in that same range, as mentioned, given how control/support/exotic heavy they are - just for comparison.
Frankly, I'm surprised it wasn't lowered long ago - like when Dreck got his timer added. Freaks have always been casual farm-bait.
Quote:
Well at least we agree on something. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I'm referring to *all the time.* I play at various levels from day to day - not just my 50s, not just lowbies. Other than the self rez, there's just nothing all that special about them. No holds (Stunners Tesla cage is a sleep, only irritating if it's the last power used on you,) no particularly special abilities, not even particularly tedious. No exotic damage - for a lowbie, the Vahz toxic damage can be horrendous by comparison.
Won't argue with 1.0 across all ranks instead of 0.8, out of the minor "threat" rezzing can be, but a *bonus* for fighting them is just not warranted. It is for the Tsoo in that same range, as mentioned, given how control/support/exotic heavy they are - just for comparison. Frankly, I'm surprised it wasn't lowered long ago - like when Dreck got his timer added. Freaks have always been casual farm-bait. |
To be honest, I didn't realize until yesterday they gave bonus xp in addition to the "extra" xp you get for having to defeat some of them twice. It just wasn't something I paid that much attention to.
But to make them reward less than "normal" xp? Nah, that I disagree with. I'm fine with lowering them to 1.0 though.
I'd always been under the impression that Freaks gave more XP because they're all able to hit Dull Pain. Since they (hypothetically) require 25% more work to bring down to 0 HP, they're likewise worth 25% more. In practice, of course, there are ways to keep them from firing off their heal, of course, but it's slightly frustrating to see something that's HARDER to kill, be worth LESS than average. I can understand the need to curb them, but I'm not sure it needs to be done in such a significant fashion.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by YuriFoxfirega
Personally, I think the fact that you get double defeat credit for the Freakshow was gift enough. :/ |
This.
For the sake of completeness, here's Castle's post on the matter from the patch notes thread:
Why was this change made?
1) Almost entirely smashing/lethal damage
2) AI "stance" issues on some units
3) Self Rez ability gives almost all Freaks a 20% chance to be worth twice their value per mission
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."