I keep foiling AE teams
By
Adult_Swim,
Posted on: 2009-08-03 05:08 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
If your sig were true, Bright_Shadow, I would never STOP complaining about Architect Entertainment.
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Aw. |
Originally Posted by JKedan
If your sig were true, Bright_Shadow, I would never STOP complaining about Architect Entertainment.
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See, here I was thinking I was using a pretty narrow brush, to use your term. |
Originally Posted by Cuppa_LLX
a good point but what most of the pro-farmers in this thread take issue with is the wide brush the anti farmers paint AE with. They will demonise Mito farms, Boss maps, EB maps, and AV maps all in the same sentence but they never even try the mission to see the explot they just say "oh well its all X class or X type. IT has to be a explotive farm"
or use "Positron told us to report faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrmmmmmmmmms" He did no such thing, he said EXploitive farms were agaisnt the rules, and they said they don't like farming in AE (and in general) but they never once said "all farming is a banable offense" if Farming was against the rules the game would have died years ago after they baned 70% of the player base. I garentee you at some point Every single player has repatedthe same content over and over again for some reason, even if you just like the content. your Farming Fun. How many people run multiple runs of the ITF despite deminishing mertit rewards becase Punching Romans in the Face is fun? NEWS FLASH YOU JUST FARMED THE ITF |
I don't care about farming in the slightest. I am not an anti-farmer. I am anti-exploitation.
I, unlike many others I have seen, am aware that there is a difference between farming and exploiting.
If you are farming (the way the term is meant) you are maximizing the gain you can get out of one or two particular missions. The reward is generally only greater because it is run by an efficient team that is skilled at defeating foes quickly. Not everyone is capable of this, as it requires ATs that work well together, players that work well together, and most importantly, players that know what they're doing.
If you are exploiting, you are cheating, plain and simple. You have found a loophole in the game that allows you to gain out of proportion rewards for little or no risk, or even effort.
The all Boss, EB, or AV farms are just that, farms. Your average team will not fare well in these missions because the enemies are difficult enough one at a time, let alone in groups. It takes a skilled team to get any kind of decent reward rate out of these missions.
The healing mito farms, on the other hand, are an exploit. Any moron can enter these missions and level like mad, while never even being targeted by an enemy, let alone take enough damage to be in danger. You don't even need enhancements on your characters because there is no threat.
I once met a SR scrapper that leveled exclusively in a mito farm. He was level 50 and joined the STF I was on. He had exactly 3 powers from his secondary: Agile, Practiced Brawler, and Focused Fighting (that he never toggled on, I only know he had it because you HAVE to take it) He also had 3 travel powers, which boggled me because in AE you don't need to travel anywhere. The powers were started with Flurry, Jump Kick, and TP Foe. He had the Presence pool, and ALL of his primary (DM I think) including the taunt. His tactic was to run in every spawn before the tank could get there and fire off Dark Consumption (not even Soul Drain, because that might actually make sense) he was wondering why he kept dying, and never onec changed his strategy, instead blaming the rest of the team for his repeated deaths. In the course of conversation the team discovered that the first mission of the STF was the first time his character had ever been attacked. I checked myself, sure enough, no damage badges, which any SR would have at least the first one of by level 50. He asked us what the dark stuff on his xp bar was, he'd never been in debt before.
Any mission that would allow a character with that pathetic of a build to reach level 50 without ever dying is an obvious exploit. Most people would figure out that since they were dying so much, maybe there's something wrong with the way I built this character. But since he had never taken so much as a point of damage, he never knew there was anything wrong with it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Exactly! And that is what I'm saying! The developers crush exploits when they see fit! They've done it in the past, and they'll do it again and again if needed.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
See, here I was thinking I was using a pretty narrow brush, to use your term.
I don't care about farming in the slightest. I am not an anti-farmer. I am anti-exploitation. I, unlike many others I have seen, am aware that there is a difference between farming and exploiting. If you are farming (the way the term is meant) you are maximizing the gain you can get out of one or two particular missions. The reward is generally only greater because it is run by an efficient team that is skilled at defeating foes quickly. Not everyone is capable of this, as it requires ATs that work well together, players that work well together, and most importantly, players that know what they're doing. If you are exploiting, you are cheating, plain and simple. You have found a loophole in the game that allows you to gain out of proportion rewards for little or no risk, or even effort. The all Boss, EB, or AV farms are just that, farms. Your average team will not fare well in these missions because the enemies are difficult enough one at a time, let alone in groups. It takes a skilled team to get any kind of decent reward rate out of these missions. The healing mito farms, on the other hand, are an exploit. Any moron can enter these missions and level like mad, while never even being targeted by an enemy, let alone take enough damage to be in danger. You don't even need enhancements on your characters because there is no threat. |
I'm sure the developers don't need a few hundred threads about how farming AE is ruining CoH. They have their own data. They know what is going on. And if they were worried about it, they'd have done something about it.
I'll admit. I haven't read most of this thread. However, when it's basically become "My word vs yours" I don't really care to.
When push comes to shove there will always be, in addition to normal players, farmers. Maybe a lot of them play normal missions, maybe a lot don't. When it comes down to it there are always going to be people that play to maximise rewards, no matter how pathetic the difference between them and normal players, just so they can say "I'm better than you".
However not all of the players that seem to be that way actually ARE.
As far as I can tell a lot of the argument is "You're playing a way I don't like".
The only answer I can give for this is play with people that suit you, whether or not they've farmed.
Hell, If I was to be straight on the matter and peoples thoughts that farmers are bad players. I've never farmed, been in the game over three years and am one of the worst players I know, 
Live long, play hard.
Friends are just enemies that haven't betrayed you yet.
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You'd miss. Rats have horrible aim. |
Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
What if I throw it at you?
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That what i'm saying to. I have no problem squasing explots but AE DOES NOT Equal Exploit. But a lot of the anti AE croud think like that.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
See, here I was thinking I was using a pretty narrow brush, to use your term.
I don't care about farming in the slightest. I am not an anti-farmer. I am anti-exploitation. I, unlike many others I have seen, am aware that there is a difference between farming and exploiting. If you are farming (the way the term is meant) you are maximizing the gain you can get out of one or two particular missions. The reward is generally only greater because it is run by an efficient team that is skilled at defeating foes quickly. Not everyone is capable of this, as it requires ATs that work well together, players that work well together, and most importantly, players that know what they're doing. If you are exploiting, you are cheating, plain and simple. You have found a loophole in the game that allows you to gain out of proportion rewards for little or no risk, or even effort. The all Boss, EB, or AV farms are just that, farms. Your average team will not fare well in these missions because the enemies are difficult enough one at a time, let alone in groups. It takes a skilled team to get any kind of decent reward rate out of these missions. The healing mito farms, on the other hand, are an exploit. Any moron can enter these missions and level like mad, while never even being targeted by an enemy, let alone take enough damage to be in danger. You don't even need enhancements on your characters because there is no threat. I once met a SR scrapper that leveled exclusively in a mito farm. He was level 50 and joined the STF I was on. He had exactly 3 powers from his secondary: Agile, Practiced Brawler, and Focused Fighting (that he never toggled on, I only know he had it because you HAVE to take it) He also had 3 travel powers, which boggled me because in AE you don't need to travel anywhere. The powers were started with Flurry, Jump Kick, and TP Foe. He had the Presence pool, and ALL of his primary (DM I think) including the taunt. His tactic was to run in every spawn before the tank could get there and fire off Dark Consumption (not even Soul Drain, because that might actually make sense) he was wondering why he kept dying, and never onec changed his strategy, instead blaming the rest of the team for his repeated deaths. In the course of conversation the team discovered that the first mission of the STF was the first time his character had ever been attacked. I checked myself, sure enough, no damage badges, which any SR would have at least the first one of by level 50. He asked us what the dark stuff on his xp bar was, he'd never been in debt before. Any mission that would allow a character with that pathetic of a build to reach level 50 without ever dying is an obvious exploit. Most people would figure out that since they were dying so much, maybe there's something wrong with the way I built this character. But since he had never taken so much as a point of damage, he never knew there was anything wrong with it. |
Again i challenge them. Gather a varaity of teams and run a few Boss farms, then come back here and tell us how you did. Did it live up to your "man on the outside" perceptions or did you finally take the blinders off.
also....
Is it weird after you told me your STF story my first though was "i wonder if i could make that work...."
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
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I very much doubt I could miss your ego.
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Originally Posted by Major_Glory
You'd miss. Rats have horrible aim.
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No, that was powerleveling. Farming was repeating the same mission over and over without completing it, regardless of the challenge.
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
"Farming" arose to describe a certain emerging style of play that focused on a carefully "cultivated" experience- one that maximized reward (whatever reward you were seeking) minimized risk, and narrowed the experience of the game to a very small location. ITF repeats certainly narrows the experience of the game to a small location, but I don't see it min/maxing reward.
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No, farming predates instanced missions. That's just how some started using it here. In earlier non-instanced situations, it had to be sedentary, optimized for reward, and minimized for risk
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Originally Posted by Mirai
No, that was powerleveling. Farming was repeating the same mission over and over without completing it, regardless of the challenge.
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Well, okay, I bow to your knowledge of other games. CoH was my first MMO, and I'm not familiar with MMO terminology before that.
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
No, farming predates instanced missions. That's just how some started using it here. In earlier non-instanced situations, it had to be sedentary, optimized for reward, and minimized for risk
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Yeah, but you're right... it's taken on a whole new meaning here, which quite confused many of us older schoolers.
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Originally Posted by Mirai
Well, okay, I bow to your knowledge of other games. CoH was my first MMO, and I'm not familiar with MMO terminology before that.
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Then might i suggest you know speak like your word is all encompasing of the MMO Genre?
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Originally Posted by Mirai
Well, okay, I bow to your knowledge of other games. CoH was my first MMO, and I'm not familiar with MMO terminology before that.
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AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
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What? That doesn't quite make sense...
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Originally Posted by Cuppa_LLX
Then might i suggest you know speak like your word is all encompasing of the MMO Genre?
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So if farming is high gain and low risk, that means my past badge hunting in missions wasn't farming. I need another word for that then...|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Yeah, but you're right... it's taken on a whole new meaning here, which quite confused many of us older schoolers.
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For example, doing the 7th Generation Paragon Protector missions repeatedly isn't low risk, it's just convenient. Hunting the bosses outdoors would actually have been lower risk for me, because I could have found gray bosses. But hunting the bosses would have been far more tedious. The Shivans only have one mission on the hero side, but I could have hunted them in Bloody Bay, but I don't go into PvP zones.
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Oh, we need a VARIETY of teams now. I guess part of the challenge is dealing with gimped players who have never actually played their characters, sidekicked lowbies, and door-sitters?|
Originally Posted by Cuppa_LLX
Again i challenge them. Gather a varaity of teams and run a few Boss farms, then come back here and tell us how you did. Did it live up to your "man on the outside" perceptions or did you finally take the blinders off.
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I am sure that hardcore far... *ahem* CHALLENGE MISSION teams are always filled with sub-optimal characters for the task in question. Nary a Granite, Kinetic or Rad in sight, nosiree.
So going with the spirit of choosing an optimal team, I took my optimal team (me) into a level 54 boss farm, and discovered I can in fact survive it, on Unyielding, and eventually kill the things too. And I wasn't even 50.
They hit hard do they? No. Maniac Slammers do not hit hard. Chief Soldiers hit hard. Rualruu Brutes hit hard. Malta Gunslingers hit hard.
And why the **** is it always that same ****ing map???
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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We're sorry the missions wasn't a challenge to you and your team. You must be one of those players who have descended from the heavens with their 1337 skills. So. Again, sorry if you found it boring. I still don't.|
Originally Posted by EvaDestruction
Oh, we need a VARIETY of teams now. I guess part of the challenge is dealing with gimped players who have never actually played their characters, sidekicked lowbies, and door-sitters?
I am sure that hardcore far... *ahem* CHALLENGE MISSION teams are always filled with sub-optimal characters for the task in question. Nary a Granite, Kinetic or Rad in sight, nosiree. So going with the spirit of choosing an optimal team, I took my optimal team (me) into a level 54 boss farm, and discovered I can in fact survive it, on Unyielding, and eventually kill the things too. And I wasn't even 50. They hit hard do they? No. Maniac Slammers do not hit hard. Chief Soldiers hit hard. Rualruu Brutes hit hard. Malta Gunslingers hit hard. And why the **** is it always that same ****ing map??? |
Why? That's none of your business.
Why is always the same map? Efficiency.
Apparently being efficient in a game is the same thing as being an exploitive farmer.
Edit: Oh, and by the way, challenge is not limited to just being able to survive. The challenge is being able to survive while keeping the rewards per time spent high.
You went in....with a well built team...
That's pretty much the entire reason you didn't find they hit hard.
It's pretty rare, especially villainside, to get a Granite Brute in a farm, yes there is usually atleast one kin on the team but they're usually the only buffer/debuffer.
Now a group of +4 Manaic slammers, try tanking them with say, a fire brute, for taking the alpha, Manaic slammers will be a lot more troublesome to deal with.
You went in with a well built team, good buffs/debuffs and treated it like a TF, optimized for challenge, most farming teams I've been on simply aren't well built, especially with the insistance on needing a 'healer' despite the fact that buffs and debuffs would work better most of the time.
Also keep in mind most farming teams usually consist of people who have done nothing BUT the AE....and we all known the problems we've seen with them...
So, congradulations, you went in with a team that could roflstomp pretty much anything and found 54 bosses absolutely no challenge...a well optimized team can do ANYTHING in this game, it would be like taking in 8 fire/rad corruptors into a boss only farm, nothing would be a challenge to them...
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Amen, that's why i said he needed a varity. A explotive farm (like mitos) could be completed with a team of 8 level 1 stalkers. Now take that same team to a boss map...|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
You went in....with a well built team...
That's pretty much the entire reason you didn't find they hit hard. It's pretty rare, especially villainside, to get a Granite Brute in a farm, yes there is usually atleast one kin on the team but they're usually the only buffer/debuffer. Now a group of +4 Manaic slammers, try tanking them with say, a fire brute, for taking the alpha, Manaic slammers will be a lot more troublesome to deal with. You went in with a well built team, good buffs/debuffs and treated it like a TF, optimized for challenge, most farming teams I've been on simply aren't well built, especially with the insistance on needing a 'healer' despite the fact that buffs and debuffs would work better most of the time. Also keep in mind most farming teams usually consist of people who have done nothing BUT the AE....and we all known the problems we've seen with them... So, congradulations, you went in with a team that could roflstomp pretty much anything and found 54 bosses absolutely no challenge...a well optimized team can do ANYTHING in this game, it would be like taking in 8 fire/rad corruptors into a boss only farm, nothing would be a challenge to them... |
I know from experience my DA brute cant tank a manic map, wont even try. Even with a few set of +3 green SOs in my sheilds im looking at 34 s/l but hey if it was a psycho clock map my 64 psi resist would dominiate it.
My peace bringer on the other hand (thanks to Cosmic Ballance) never has less then 50 resist across the board and when i go 3 sloted SO dwarf im usaly rocking 74-85 resist.
Hell just last night in one of my arc tests the team ran into a DE shard Monster class and i was albe to tank that on my 35 (sked to 38) PB...couldnt damamge the thing but i could have tanked it for the next four hours if i wanted.
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
I guess people missed the point....
My "optimized team" consisted of me. Solo. Since people who have gotten good at optimizing rewards all have their favorite team configuration for doing it, I figured I would use the team configuration that routinely nets me the highest rewards: solo. The people I tend to team with aren't all about optimizing rewards. Furthermore, I don't consider myself to have uber 1337 skillz, or an optimum build, or bazillions of inf to burn. I'm not going to be soloing 8-man spawns anytime soon.
You keep saying "most" farming teams. As if the people who discover the best "rewards/risk and time spent" ratios belong to the masses that make up "most" farming teams. As if the people who regularly successfully complete these missions belong to "most."
"Most" farming teams (the kind who stand around yelling for a healer, have a bunch of useless lowbies and doorsitters, and people who don't know what half their powers do) would get slaughtered doing regular content on Invincible too. People who drag these n00bs (yes I said it. N00bs. Defined as people who don't know how to play at a level of reasonable competence and have no intention of trying to learn.) on their "challenge" missions are contributing to the problem.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Wow, this thread has become a monster. And it started off so innocently too...
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This. I also fail to see how farming anything could be considered "fun".
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Originally Posted by EvaDestruction
I guess people missed the point....
My "optimized team" consisted of me. Solo. Since people who have gotten good at optimizing rewards all have their favorite team configuration for doing it, I figured I would use the team configuration that routinely nets me the highest rewards: solo. The people I tend to team with aren't all about optimizing rewards. Furthermore, I don't consider myself to have uber 1337 skillz, or an optimum build, or bazillions of inf to burn. I'm not going to be soloing 8-man spawns anytime soon. You keep saying "most" farming teams. As if the people who discover the best "rewards/risk and time spent" ratios belong to the masses that make up "most" farming teams. As if the people who regularly successfully complete these missions belong to "most." "Most" farming teams (the kind who stand around yelling for a healer, have a bunch of useless lowbies and doorsitters, and people who don't know what half their powers do) would get slaughtered doing regular content on Invincible too. People who drag these n00bs (yes I said it. N00bs. Defined as people who don't know how to play at a level of reasonable competence and have no intention of trying to learn.) on their "challenge" missions are contributing to the problem. |
Champion-
Flaming Intern/Tanker(main)
The Ice Albatross/Blaster
Apollonius/Controller
Valtrix/Defender
All the tank sets in the Intern variety
Burning Intern/Brute(CoV Main)
And the list goes on...
Well, what is farming and what is "normal" play?
If you boil it all down, ALL MMOs, including this one, are doing the same thing, pressing the same buttons over and over again. All MMOs are essentially grinding.
The only difference is in the DEGREE of variety in CONTENT that you run. That's it.
Fundamentally, farming and playing are identical. The only difference is the window dressing.
Now that the new issue will come with a team slider, I will be able to let go of the last of my irrational hate of farmers... because they'll no longer have any more reason to bug me anymore.
They can farm their same mission over and over again, and I can go around doing my variety of missions, pushing the same buttons over and over again.
My mother is addicted to casino slot machines. It's an addiction, and she won't admit to it. This addiction costs lots and lots of money to sit at the same machine every day with flashing lights and pretty noises. I have picked up the same addictive tendencies that she has, only my addictions are MUCH less expensive. I sit at the same machine every day with flashing lights and pretty noises pushing the same buttons. $15 a month however is a LOT less than she pays, and I get the same enjoyment.
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You're correct. Most farming teams are the PuGs who end up with a team wipe-out on the first group in a Maniac Slammer farm.|
Originally Posted by EvaDestruction
I guess people missed the point....
My "optimized team" consisted of me. Solo. Since people who have gotten good at optimizing rewards all have their favorite team configuration for doing it, I figured I would use the team configuration that routinely nets me the highest rewards: solo. The people I tend to team with aren't all about optimizing rewards. Furthermore, I don't consider myself to have uber 1337 skillz, or an optimum build, or bazillions of inf to burn. I'm not going to be soloing 8-man spawns anytime soon. You keep saying "most" farming teams. As if the people who discover the best "rewards/risk and time spent" ratios belong to the masses that make up "most" farming teams. As if the people who regularly successfully complete these missions belong to "most." "Most" farming teams (the kind who stand around yelling for a healer, have a bunch of useless lowbies and doorsitters, and people who don't know what half their powers do) would get slaughtered doing regular content on Invincible too. People who drag these n00bs (yes I said it. N00bs. Defined as people who don't know how to play at a level of reasonable competence and have no intention of trying to learn.) on their "challenge" missions are contributing to the problem. |
Isn't that enough of a risk vs. reward ratio to you?
Personally, I don't let these "noobs" you speak of on my farm teams. Does that make me a bad person? Does that make me an elitist? No. I just don't find their play style compatible with mine. In fact, I refuse to call them "noobs" like you did.
The problem is, as someone mentioned in another thread, most of the members of the anti-farmer community generalize their arguments too much. They take a big, wide brush and paint everyone in their path with it. And that's what makes 'us' so stubborn on our arguments.
Mind you, I'm not a member of the pro-farming side of the debate. I find farming incredibly boring at times. At other times, I find it fun. Call me weird. But that's how I am. I'm merely stating that people should be allowed to enjoy the game they way they want to, as long as they are not breaking the rules and disturbing others.
From my point of view, it appears that the pro-farmers are the ones constantly having to put up with the anti-farmers trying to impose and enforce their ideals on them. And for that, I defend their point.
You're an example of the type of people I'm talking about.
NEWS FLASH
YOU JUST FARMED THE ITF