Actually, sod this.
Praf, you've shown yourself to be an arrogant, delusional little tosspot. You'll insult and slag people off, but then start crying when fire gets aimed back at you - no matter how often and how thoroughly your arguments are debunked, you'll desperately cling on to them in the vain hope they'll come true. They won't.
You're going on ignore from this point. Continue to lie and rub yourself off over me, but from now on you're not getting any responses.
Now that's out of the way, anybody else got thoughts on this?
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, sod this.
Praf, you've shown yourself to be an arrogant, delusional little tosspot. You'll insult and slag people off, but then start crying when fire gets aimed back at you - no matter how often and how thoroughly your arguments are debunked, you'll desperately cling on to them in the vain hope they'll come true. They won't.
You're going on ignore from this point. Continue to lie and rub yourself off over me, but from now on you're not getting any responses.
[/ QUOTE ]
Amen!
SingStar:
"Extremists LOVE to fish to get us annoyed so we break the forum rules."
CRACK68:
"The origin of life wasn't planned either, should all life be declared a bug and wiped out?"
Lionsbane:
"You know me.Ever the realist"
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Now that's out of the way, anybody else got thoughts on this?
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally, not really. But from a very top level view I cant help but think of comparisons to another restrictive and flawed AT and think, [censored], like Stalkers, are there still going to be "Fix Bane Spider" threads in 2 years time?
Right now the LAST thing I'm going to want to roll in i12 is a Bane Spider, and probably even in the following 24 months, because I just cba to wait for the comparable time span for the AT to get made remotely "fixed".
VEATs have certain restrictive qualities about them that you either buy into or you don't. Part of the attraction is the inherent "cool" factor in style, appearance and gameply. But some of these restrictive qualities, the costume criteria, and the play functionality are starting to get, over time and in some cases SOOOOOOOOO increasingly restrictive that I'm starting to buy right OUT of the desire to wanting to play one at all.
SOAs are starting to feel like a great concept excercised in a clunky manner that is starting to fall part at the joints.
I'm sure my comments are innappropriate and unfounded since I'm not on test playtesting the things all the way through to 50. And hey, I will be very happy to be very wrong. But like I said, from a top level view, looking ahead into i12, these things really are starting to seem like an excercise in diminishing fun and diminishing reward.
Just IMO OFC.
Basically, despite the occuring drama in the thread, there is a point made by Praf that I entirely agree with:
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IMO and AT that only performs in teams is as broken as an AT that is only effective solo (i.e. stalkers). In this case, Banes don't just need to team, they need to team with a specific AT, i.e. more SoA. Doubly broken.
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I won't be rolling one or playing one at any time those conditions apply.
If you read the comments of the testers, you can see that banes still perform well in solo (and in teams), despite the doubled recharge of placate (44s now, I red). They are fragile against bosses, as all defensive ats, but they deal enough damages to survive.
I think that it's the way the devs conceived it : not the toughest at, but with a frequent placate (20s, at the beginning, which gives 7s with haste, IOs and set bonuses) which permits rather high damages (melee and ranged).
If 44s (14s with haste, IOs and set bonuses) is finally too long, they'll just reduce it, I think.
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You'll insult and slag people off
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In what post have I slagged anyone off? You on the other hand...
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but then start crying when fire gets aimed back at you
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Er, who's crying. I'm loving this!
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no matter how often and how thoroughly your arguments are debunked
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So far, number of arguments debunked by Syracuse = zero. In fact I'm not seeing any arguments or evidence, ony insults.
I really should do something about this signature.
[ QUOTE ]
Now that's out of the way, anybody else got thoughts on this?
[/ QUOTE ]
I have made a number of suggestions, buy a certain person sees fit to respond to any constructive suggestion I make with insults, without coming up with any ideas of thier own.
I really should do something about this signature.
[ QUOTE ]
If you read the comments of the testers, you can see that banes still perform well in solo (and in teams), despite the doubled recharge of placate (44s now, I red). They are fragile against bosses, as all defensive ats, but they deal enough damages to survive.
I think that it's the way the devs conceived it : not the toughest at, but with a frequent placate (20s, at the beginning, which gives 7s with haste, IOs and set bonuses) which permits rather high damages (melee and ranged).
If 44s (14s with haste, IOs and set bonuses) is finally too long, they'll just reduce it, I think.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've no doubt this is true. Banes are fine taken on thier own, better than a stalker in a team situation. They just suffer in comparison to Night Widows. You could take from this that the truth of the matter is Night Widows are overpowered, but no one like to call for an AT to be nerfed.
I really should do something about this signature.
Night Widows are over powered?
Data?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I have no idea what's going on in this thread, So I'm gonna lock it up.
I admit that Banes are very squishy and that their attacks dont echo their defence in that they do alot of damage in melee but have more defence against ranged, that said I look forward to trying to work out a viable build like I did for my Stalker.
Its nice to finally have a challanging build since my Last main was a Claws/SR stalker, I mean Banes have so many things that set them apart and yes they are not balanced but as has been so popularly stated alot of things in this game arn't balanced, but are at that same token still fun.
I also wish that the ferocity would just end, why is everyone decending into venomous words when this is a Discussion about the potential plusses and minuses of an AT from an MMORPG, at the end of the day its only a game, there is no need to get angry and abusive over it.
just my two inf
Regards
Spider
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I have no idea what's going on in this thread, So I'm gonna lock it up.
[/ QUOTE ]
Haha, good post.
On topic: I too agree that the problem is less that they underperform, but more that they perform less than other SoAs. Banes do need a hook that will provide a different bonus to teams whilst not crippling their solo ability (which also seems below par with regards to other SoAs). So how can this be solved? I don't think its possible to solve this easily, and I'm not sure Praf's solution is enouh to rectify the lack of soloability. But at the same time, the short recharge placate should not have been in place and i agree with the "fix" (its a stalker signature power and in my opinion it would be unfair for another AT to have such a more powerful version of it.) I just don't think there is a easy fix for this without potentially affecting Crab spiders.
Regarding the furor above, seems like this all ballooned out of control after a fairly tongue in cheek remark made to a 3rd party who inadequately provided reasoning for a disagreement (almost a /jranger). Chill out guys (and remember forum rules).
@Jaw Dropper - Toons of all levels so drop me a line!
Imaginary Inc.
Twitter me!
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Night Widows are over powered?
Data?
[/ QUOTE ]
They can basically live at the def soft cap. And they get KB protection. They beat SR stalkers in that respect.
On the other hand, they don't get the +20% hp that banes do.
Not nesasserally overpowered, but seems more effective than Banes.
I really should do something about this signature.
In my experience survivability isn't always in the shields but you do have to look at what shields you do have most of the time.
It doesn't matter what I do with a Bane, Wide Area Web Grenade and Web Cocoon simply seem to be a good idea to control and to kite when necessary.
Now in taking them I don't know if people are dropping in DPS but in using them on anything you reduce the enemies DPS. Lower DPS later streakbreaks, chance to heal self, time to regen. Ranged attacks from kiting web grenaded mobs are lower in Damage and less likely to hit. Cocooned enemies don't debuff you, perhaps lowering your dps.
Most definitely in teams generally I can't see a problem without them but solo..maybe. I'd like to watch someone solo. Solo I'd probably value control over debuff. I might choose Wide Area Web Grenade over Venom Grenade in order to kite easier in order to rely on my range def. Venom would help me defeat faster but sometimes the tortoise beats the hare.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
If you read the comments of the testers, you can see that banes still perform well in solo (and in teams), despite the doubled recharge of placate (44s now, I red). They are fragile against bosses, as all defensive ats, but they deal enough damages to survive.
I think that it's the way the devs conceived it : not the toughest at, but with a frequent placate (20s, at the beginning, which gives 7s with haste, IOs and set bonuses) which permits rather high damages (melee and ranged).
If 44s (14s with haste, IOs and set bonuses) is finally too long, they'll just reduce it, I think.
[/ QUOTE ]
Speaking as one of the few people who has level 50 veats in fortunata, crab, night widow and bane spider full on crazy expensive IO builds (thanks to closed beta bumps) I can safely say that bane are lagging behind the other 3, simple as. I can play one then the other then the next and so on and see how they compare and what strengths each bring to the table.
I like my bane, i think its fun but its significantly underpowered in relation to the others now, with placate at 20 it had a novel and unique way of boosting survivability and damage.
They cant factor in bonuses in balancing out new powersets or they will have to do the same to every single current powerset and at which point they are designing a whole new game again, so its irrelevant to go on about how low you can get placate down with bonuses.
Im confident the placate nerf came about from pvpers crying (I am a pvper myself so im not bashing) but it has significantly affected banes, expect some buff to come before live.
[ QUOTE ]
In my experience survivability isn't always in the shields but you do have to look at what shields you do have most of the time.
It doesn't matter what I do with a Bane, Wide Area Web Grenade and Web Cocoon simply seem to be a good idea to control and to kite when necessary.
Now in taking them I don't know if people are dropping in DPS but in using them on anything you reduce the enemies DPS. Lower DPS later streakbreaks, chance to heal self, time to regen. Ranged attacks from kiting web grenaded mobs are lower in Damage and less likely to hit. Cocooned enemies don't debuff you, perhaps lowering your dps.
Most definitely in teams generally I can't see a problem without them but solo..maybe. I'd like to watch someone solo. Solo I'd probably value control over debuff. I might choose Wide Area Web Grenade over Venom Grenade in order to kite easier in order to rely on my range def. Venom would help me defeat faster but sometimes the tortoise beats the hare.
[/ QUOTE ]
100% /agree
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I admit that Banes are very squishy and that their attacks dont echo their defence in that they do alot of damage in melee but have more defence against ranged, that said I look forward to trying to work out a viable build like I did for my Stalker.
Its nice to finally have a challanging build since my Last main was a Claws/SR stalker, I mean Banes have so many things that set them apart and yes they are not balanced but as has been so popularly stated alot of things in this game arn't balanced, but are at that same token still fun.
I also wish that the ferocity would just end, why is everyone decending into venomous words when this is a Discussion about the potential plusses and minuses of an AT from an MMORPG, at the end of the day its only a game, there is no need to get angry and abusive over it.
just my two inf
Regards
Spider
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah the age old phrase it's only a game; used in an attempt to diminish the seriousness of a disscussion.
If i get into something, i see it through very seriously until the end, i don't care if it's a game. Call me petty but meh.
The reason agression is needed is because the devs simply won't take notice of peaceful disscusion. It's the same with pacifists; no one takes them seriously.
We need to swear and shout and make ourselves heard in this matter, because we're even MORE screwed simply because they'll ask the US players what they think, and leave the less important EU til last.
And i agree with stalkobot, it's their soloability (i like that word) that i'm worried about. pvping solo and more importantly pvping solo is my primary concearn. I hope the devs do figure out a suitable buff, i hope some of u guys are emailing ur suggestions to Nc NorCal about this. ^^
Control is certainly an alterative to shields when it comes to defense. However, if you have WAW Grenade or Tox Grenade you have to redraw the rifle. And under the new system redraw does slow your attack rate (ok so it always did on some powers, but officially it wasn't supposed to, but now it is).
If you are going to use the rifle I would pick up Pummel at level 1 instead of Bash. 66% chance of mag 3 stun. That will keep you alive in close quarters.
However, now the PPP mace redraw is fixed you can pick up Web Envelope at level 41. Immob is great when your ranged defense is considerably higher than your melee.
I really should do something about this signature.
banes are melee oriented, i don't think i'll take many ranged powers other than mace blast; it's single target, which is how i prefer to fight, and im taking all my melee powers.
Their attacks are so good in terms of fun, and especially the bone crunching sound effects. Let me reiterate, banes are melee fighters, yet like so many have stated, their best defense is ranged.
I wasnt trying to diffuse your Conversation by saying its only a game, I just dont understand why the aggression is turned inward when you stated your displeasure about the devs.
as I stated before I find banes fun, I dont understand however why they have more defence against ranged when they are melee based as a primary.
Regards
Spider
[ QUOTE ]
The reason agression is needed is because the devs simply won't take notice of peaceful disscusion. It's the same with pacifists; no one takes them seriously.
We need to swear and shout and make ourselves heard in this matter, because we're even MORE screwed simply because they'll ask the US players what they think, and leave the less important EU til last.
[/ QUOTE ]
Several devs have pointed out recently (and historically) that they do not listen to the shouting and aggression filled posts. Castle even put 50 forum users on ignore in one weekend when the US forums got a bit too...fruity. I would say well presented reasoned discussion (although it may not be as attention grabbing) is far more likely to get your views considered seriously.
That said, I do agree that our voices are not heard over here. I'm sure GhostRaptor is forwarding good points over, but its not the same exposure as a US poster can get towards the Devs. Users can even send PMs to Castle et al. On the other hand, even the US posters dont always get their voices heard. Denizens of the corruptor boards across the Atlantic had been pointing out that the cost of their traps was too high for well over a year, and it is only now being fixed.
@Jaw Dropper - Toons of all levels so drop me a line!
Imaginary Inc.
Twitter me!
[ QUOTE ]
banes are melee oriented, i don't think i'll take many ranged powers other than mace blast; it's single target, which is how i prefer to fight, and im taking all my melee powers.
Their attacks are so good in terms of fun, and especially the bone crunching sound effects. Let me reiterate, banes are melee fighters, yet like so many have stated, their best defense is ranged.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are times and places for everything, even if only a few seconds here and a few seconds there. As a tanker tanking an AV you may think I either spend all my time in melee or all my time kiting but it can be a bit of a mix. It is down to priorities. Sometimes you/team will do more damage by doing what is best to stay alive than you would playing in a way where you think you can treat every enemy the same and expect a divine right to be able to survive. Web Cocoon will be helpful in fighting melee ofc. Web grenade will be helpful in holding some back. Incidentally what I did knocking a Bane up offensively as a plan (with only powers randomly picked atm) I chose teleport pool. With TP foe I might be able to keep say 2 enemies far back with the WAWG and tp foe one to me whilst they will still be immob'd, placate and whoop. I am concentrating on Widows atm I must admit and so playing it could be a different barrel of beer.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reason agression is needed is because the devs simply won't take notice of peaceful disscusion. It's the same with pacifists; no one takes them seriously.
We need to swear and shout and make ourselves heard in this matter, because we're even MORE screwed simply because they'll ask the US players what they think, and leave the less important EU til last.
[/ QUOTE ]
Several devs have pointed out recently (and historically) that they do not listen to the shouting and aggression filled posts. Castle even put 50 forum users on ignore in one weekend when the US forums got a bit too...fruity. I would say well presented reasoned discussion (although it may not be as attention grabbing) is far more likely to get your views considered seriously.
That said, I do agree that our voices are not heard over here. I'm sure GhostRaptor is forwarding good points over, but its not the same exposure as a US poster can get towards the Devs. Users can even send PMs to Castle et al. On the other hand, even the US posters dont always get their voices heard. Denizens of the corruptor boards across the Atlantic had been pointing out that the cost of their traps was too high for well over a year, and it is only now being fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
then lol @ devs. I think ur one of the mild mannered people, but i am however, an impatient, intolerant, agressive unpleasant and generally a mean person, you probably wouldn't like me if we met 
.
Most people in the world are either like me, or even bigger [censored] holes. It's hard to be nice :<.
The devs may say they don't take notice, but i bet they say that just to make people be nicer, yes i do say stuff about them, but praf, and syracause have been the ones providing good reasoned argument ^^
I admire your honesty! But the devs are people too, so look at it this way. If YOU were a dev, who would you listen to? The person whose post is full of censored words and is calling you personally an idiot, or the person who is politely requesting a change for x,y,z reasons? I know who I'd put on ignore 
@Jaw Dropper - Toons of all levels so drop me a line!
Imaginary Inc.
Twitter me!
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because they'd lack the raw damage or consistent DPS.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? This is new. Are you now claiming that Banes do significantly less damage than Night Widows? Do you have any eveidence for that claim?
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Key word: better. BETTER.
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Key word: equal. EQUAL.
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Having a little extra defense while your core purpose
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What core purpose would this be then?
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then you've got the balls to face up to them again when your accusations are trumped.
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Since that hasn't happened, I wouldn't know.
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slag someone off
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't slag people off. I leave that to people who can't come up with any proper arguments or evidence. I might help people to make themselves look stupid occasionally, but then, nobody is perfect.
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You're a bloody coward, Praf.
[/ QUOTE ]
True. I don't like hights, would never consider extreme sports, or joining the army.
I really should do something about this signature.