Actually, banes underperform compared to VEATs, and if they are OP, it's rightfully so because EAT's are meant to be strong, well look at HEATs, lol.
And by rebalancing, u mean nerfing. WHy should the other 3 VEATs suffer because the devs made 1 of them substandard. Better to fix banes and bring them in line with the rest than make all 3 of them worse and destroy the fun for those who play them.
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort auf:[/color]<hr />
And I'm saying thats a terrible yardstick to determine if a build is good or not.
[/ QUOTE ]
This. The very idea that a build could be bad because it can not solo on Relentless is so horribly absurd... There are so many builds that can barely solo on Rugged/Vicious (or not even that) but have powers that really shine in a team. Some people may not be cut out to play such builds (mostly for all the wrong reasons like "they can't solo on Relentless"), but that changes nothing about the fact that these builds can be excellent at what they do... and far more useful than the soloer's build.
And about Banes... I seem to have missed the memo where they say that all VEATS should be the same. As a matter of fact I remember people complaining when all the villain patron pools came out and were too similar to each other. Now the devs do the opposite thing with VEATs and it's also wrong... Well, I guess you can't please everyone. 
Oh, for the books: Banes can solo on Relentless. They just don't excel at it... a bit like most tankers. Really, tankers must be broken. 
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
I play mainly for pve, i don't want to play a build that reaaaaally struggles on relentless, gets me killed lots, and is gonna stress me out and make me throw my pc out the window.
Luckily it can't fit out of it, because if it did, it would have gone a LOOOOONG time ago xD
And i only team until i get to 50, so i don't care about helping/shining/supporting in a team. At 50 i like to solo and bask in my own strength clearing missions in no time.
It may be a bad yardstick to some, but it's the only thing i analyse before i make a new character. Yes i may be missing out on lots of content, hell i've never played stalkers or defenders, so yeah i guess i am.
I just think to myself 'how good is this build gonna be at soloing and killing things'
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, banes underperform compared to VEATs, and if they are OP, it's rightfully so because EAT's are meant to be strong, well look at HEATs, lol.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're 100% wrong with this assumption. EATs are supposed to be different and challenging. They can be strong if played right, but they shouldn't overshadow regular ATs. (Khelds certainly don't from what I've played of them so far).
[ QUOTE ]
And by rebalancing, u mean nerfing. WHy should the other 3 VEATs suffer because the devs made 1 of them substandard. Better to fix banes and bring them in line with the rest than make all 3 of them worse and destroy the fun for those who play them.
[/ QUOTE ]
I mean rebalancing, up or down. Taking overperforming powers and tweaking them down, taking poorly performing powers and tweaking them up.
Very tricky to do mind, usually since there's so many scenarios to be balancing for : Solo PvE, Team PvE, vs AVs, Zone PvP, Arena PvP etc.
Well, that's telling me that Banes are probably not your kind of toon, but given your preferences it is still a loooooong way to say they are broken.
By that standard most defenders would be broken and I can't see that being the case by any stretch.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
I never said they were broken, just underperform compared to the others, and i have a 32 bane on test, and i like it very much ^^.
Actually you said they "suck" which is slightly stronger than just "underperform compared to the others".
However, I can not agree that Banes underperform. If anything they are late bloomers which is probably the reason why so many people don't see their strengths.
In the end their armour totals are nothing short of impressive and most enemies feel the pain when they are permanently under Surveillance (or even stacked Surveillance from multiple Banes just about to strike from stealth... yuck!).
Their animations seem a bit longish, but that's basically it.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually you said they "suck" which is slightly stronger than just "underperform compared to the others".
However, I can not agree that Banes underperform. If anything they are late bloomers which is probably the reason why so many people don't see their strengths.
In the end their armour totals are nothing short of impressive and most enemies feel the pain when they are permanently under Surveillance (or even stacked Surveillance from multiple Banes just about to strike from stealth... yuck!).
Their animations seem a bit longish, but that's basically it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Having extensively tested all veats upt to and including lvl 50 during closed beta in a myriad of builds with top IO specs I can can say that banes underperform in their current incarnation in comparison to the other branches.
Their animations are fine, their attacks are fine, their damage mitigation is lacking, widows have significantly more defence and crabs have great huge globs more resistence. Can this be worked around to have a good functioning toon? Yes but the other branches dont need to work so hard. At the very least 7.5% def to melee should be dialed in to bane armour upgrade due to their melee centric setup.
Just before live when they had a 20 second placate which served as additional (unusual) mitigation and damage increase they were up their with the others, now they do lag behind.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
Read some of this long thread, Skipped some and read some more, And all i can tell is one guy says banes suck because he can't solo relentless. Another guy saying they need a buff so they can solo relentless/balance them and...well.
Pretty much what sums it all up, Your playing on the top level and mentioned you like to play like a tank/brute. Banes are not tanks/brutes, Don't see how you can say at level 30 or so that the character is dead terrible.
I myself like to play stalkers and was able to solo many a mission on a decently high level, Yet when i made a corr i found i got my behind kicked. Is it totaly possible your playing the class the wrong way and expecting them to be uber at everything because they have "epic" in their name?
On a side note i have seen banes in action and find myself wanting to make one, And i would not be mad enough to solo on relentless just to get to lvl 50 in three weeks. Take your time and learn the AT then that way you maybe able to actually prove it does not suck.
Oh and playing on test only spoiled it for yourselves, Rather than enjoying something thats new and interesting your already moaning on whats bust. There's no need to blame devs or to nit pick others posts, There is alot of that on this thread and some people made valid points yet a couple keep talking in circles.
Sadly everyone elses opinion is wrong and mines right does not create a constructive arguement for anyone.
The above comments are not meant to offend anyone, If they did oh well it was not my intention.
One of the leaders of the Harlequins villain group and currently on defiant.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh and playing on test only spoiled it for yourselves, Rather than enjoying something thats new and interesting your already moaning on whats bust. There's no need to blame devs or to nit pick others posts, There is alot of that on this thread and some people made valid points yet a couple keep talking in circles.
[/ QUOTE ]
playing on test may indeed spoil it for the people that do it but without them it would be a considerably longer time untill you got to see them in light of day on live. You should be grateful for the free service they provide for your gaming experience
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
[ QUOTE ]
playing on test may indeed spoil it for the people that do it but without them it would be a considerably longer time untill you got to see them in light of day on live. You should be grateful for the free service they provide for your gaming experience
[/ QUOTE ]
Good grief.
Playing on test doesn't achieve jack squat other than e-peen inflation.
Testing on the test server, reporting bugs, working with the devs...etc. Those are the folk who should be "thanked".
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
playing on test may indeed spoil it for the people that do it but without them it would be a considerably longer time untill you got to see them in light of day on live. You should be grateful for the free service they provide for your gaming experience
[/ QUOTE ]
Good grief.
Playing on test doesn't achieve jack squat other than e-peen inflation.
Testing on the test server, reporting bugs, working with the devs...etc. Those are the folk who should be "thanked".
[/ QUOTE ]
actually its through general playtesting that the bugs are found and noted, if people didnt play on test then they would have a significantly buggier launch. It only takes on person "playing" on test to find a game breaking bug.
Testing and playing on test are not mutually exclusive.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
[ QUOTE ]
Oh and playing on test only spoiled it for yourselves,
[/ QUOTE ]
No it didn't i waited a long time for the open beta so i could play banes, and i thoroughly enjoyed them, now i'm making one on live servers.
[ QUOTE ]
actually its through general playtesting that the bugs are found and noted, if people didnt play on test then they would have a significantly buggier launch. It only takes on person "playing" on test to find a game breaking bug.
Testing and playing on test are not mutually exclusive.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you're finding bugs and noting them, rather than playing for the sake of seeing stuff early, then you fall under the "tester" category in my view.
I am grateful to the people we pay to play the game, And i am sure your not one of the people we pay to play the game. Unfortunatly it seems that whatever anyone says you have a reason to point something out that is not valid to the thread....which if i remember correctly is why banes suck or rather whats wrong with banes?
So i will let you pick on others posts as it is obvious that there is nothing wrong with banes other than the fact they cannot solo on relentless. And leads me to understand that this thread is pretty much a arguement over nothing to do with the original post.
And so that you do not misunderstand me, I am not grateful to you for play testing a game, You had the option to do that as a non payed play tester. It is yours and others choice to play test the game and iron out the bugs, And to assume myself and many others should thank you is nothing more than sheer arrogance.
If you are offended by the above oh well i guess you asked for it. 
One of the leaders of the Harlequins villain group and currently on defiant.
[ QUOTE ]
I am grateful to the people we pay to play the game, And i am sure your not one of the people we pay to play the game. Unfortunatly it seems that whatever anyone says you have a reason to point something out that is not valid to the thread....which if i remember correctly is why banes suck or rather whats wrong with banes?
So i will let you pick on others posts as it is obvious that there is nothing wrong with banes other than the fact they cannot solo on relentless. And leads me to understand that this thread is pretty much a arguement over nothing to do with the original post.
And so that you do not misunderstand me, I am not grateful to you for play testing a game, You had the option to do that as a non payed play tester. It is yours and others choice to play test the game and iron out the bugs, And to assume myself and many others should thank you is nothing more than sheer arrogance.
If you are offended by the above oh well i guess you asked for it.
[/ QUOTE ]
They can solo on relentless, as can any AT so your assumptions are wrong. The point is that they are not balanced to the other 3 branches, simple as, expect to see upcoming buffs.
Read what I write because you seem to totally miss the point, no offense but this would seem to be either stupidity or illiteracy on your part (see what I did there, I said no offense so if you take offense thats your problem) To assume I have said something that I havent just shows how immensely arrogant you are, as you admitted you didnt read most of the thread you should have at least had the intellect to read what you were responding to in such a derogatory manner.
I never at any point said anyone should be thanking me, I did some significant testing in beta, caught a number of quite nasty bugs including the ability to impersonate all of the developers which was quite amusing. However the majority of what I did was intensive balance bursts but that catches only so much, my goal wasnt to fix bugs, my goal was personal intellectual curiosity and I was level bumped for the vast majority, i played them all at each increment for a decent amount of time and /bugged a fair amount but that is nothing in comparison to someone getting in and playing the game 1-50 as that is what needs to be done to show how they function at every single stage. There were people who played and leveled the characters from 1 to 50 on test where they get no benefit whatsoever, there are people who truely work hard to get the game right for release, I dont know their motivation but Im not going to invest that much resource into a non benefit environment but im grateful to those who do as its their datamined performance that shows where they lie. Anyone who invests time on test to play on test is a better man than I and you really shouldnt underestimate their contribution to a smooth live experience.
In my opinion you shouldnt be grateful to the developers, you give them money every month for a very enjoyable job, you are their customers, they are grateful to you. The point is there are unpaid people who go on test, are on test not just in betas, open or closed, but several times a week making the game that much better.
Just to make this clear for you as its obvious you have reading comprehension issues, I didnt play on test, I did my own thing and I certainly dont expect appreciation but with access to the closed beta forums I was privy to the work of a lot of people and I am very grateful to these individuals.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh and playing on test only spoiled it for yourselves,
[/ QUOTE ]
No it didn't i waited a long time for the open beta so i could play banes, and i thoroughly enjoyed them, now i'm making one on live servers.
[/ QUOTE ]
I chose to quote this just to show how Devs scored a win/win with Banes. Here is why there is a win win:
1) Some people who are complaining about Banes being sub par clearly care about them and still find them fun.
2) Some people don't complain about Banes, like a challenge and find them fun.
3) Put points 1,2 and 3 together.
Sure there maybe changes but usually Castle does something that nobody else came up with because its like the unwritten law in making people see why he is the powers guy and nobody else is...or maybe its just further datamining + tentatively balancing things based on real figures.
Only some closed testers are really notable, there are many, many others who are no more useful than the open beta testers, in fact, maybe, they're complete pug material, but you may need that pug material (especially in terms of knowing if something is as fun as it could be) and they may haplessly find some bug. Sometimes that PuG material picks up an AT and with a knee jerk whines, min/maxxing nothing, taking in the big picture not and gives it the "if I can play it or make it good in 5 mins no one can". Personally I'd prefer further live datamining by Castle.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Stalkobot u rock, that's really quite true. Great point. Expect to see banes buffed, w00p.
1) Banes are sub par relative to the other SoA.
2) Some people won't team with ATs/powersets they think are sub par.
3) Bane spiders do not function as well without a team.
4) Put 1, 2 and 3 together.
I really should do something about this signature.
[ QUOTE ]
1) Banes are sub par relative to the other SOA.
2) Some people won't team with ATs/powersets they think are sub par.
3) Bane spiders do not function as well without a team.
4) Put 1, 2 and 3 together.
[/ QUOTE ]
Emboldened for extra visibility, since a lot of people seem to miss this when they respond.
Very true.
I really should do something about this signature.
O.o
I am not going to disagree with that they may need balancing with the other SoAs (and bold incase people keep missing the point that I don't ) but I will say that those playing them and complaining (yet having so much "fun") have needed to make a better idea of their builds to suit their purposes whilst the Devs look into it further and like I said I'd rather live datamining.
Woe be to anyone if I have a lvl 50 Bane that rocks just as well as the others...
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
The bane is somewhat squishy, and more than often needs to be close to the enemy. A very small boost to resist, so that people don't feel compelled to take tough and weave, which is madness with all the stuff you got to drop then, would not go amiss.
They nerfed placate, for PvP reasons as I understand it. Was there ever an adjustment to balance out the Bane in PvE at all, after this nerf? Having to take hasten and ultra costly IO's to bring placate back into shape, is also madness. :-)
Can live with a little madness. But twice is a costly price.
---
[ QUOTE ]
). To me that'd suggest the other 3 are currently a bit OPed and need some rebalancing rather than Banes really needing buffage.
I'm just saying if a build is good it can solo on relentles.
[/ QUOTE ]
And I'm saying thats a terrible yardstick to determine if a build is good or not. If you won't play a toon who can't solo on relentless you're missing out on a lot of excellent and fun builds who shine on Team PvE.
To be honest all this Bane hate seems to be to be "These aren't as uber as the other 3 VEATs". I even asked how they stack up against the other Villain ATs and PRAF said they seem fine (actually he said "shush"