OMG THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
By
7thCynic,
Posted on: 2009-07-16 11:58 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
...
Greater flexibility is good. Homogeneity is not.
[/ QUOTE ]
This!
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
[ QUOTE ]
I feel my argument carries quite a bit of weight. TFs and SFs, with the exception of Rikti Mothership Raids and Hamidon (which nobody does anymore), are the only special content in the game. Degrade them so that they're on par with radio missions means you have no special content anymore nor anything that stands out. Everything is just basic missions. If you get rid of size requirements, why not get rid of level requirements too? Why shouldn't a level 10 be able to run the STF or LRSF? I bet a lot of people would like that too! Just slide the difficulty level down so that a level 10 could solo it. Tons of happy people.
"Hey, I just solo'd the STF!"
"Big deal. Everyone solos it. I solo'd it twice today with my level 11 Empathy/Radiation defender."
Ooooooh. The feeling of achievement will be staggering!
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm all for removing level requirements, due to my undying hatred of locked costume pieces.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
[ QUOTE ]
I feel my argument carries quite a bit of weight.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are of course entititled to that opinion.
[ QUOTE ]
TFs and SFs, with the exception of Rikti Mothership Raids and Hamidon (which nobody does anymore), are the only special content in the game. Degrade them so that they're on par with radio missions means you have no special content anymore nor anything that stands out.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, many of the older hero TFs are mostly generic missions strung together. I'm not sure how that's an argument to preserve minimum team sizes.
If the only thing making a TF "stand out" is the annoyance of putting together a team it seems to me getting rid of that annoyance would be an improvement.
[ QUOTE ]
Everything is just basic missions. If you get rid of size requirements, why not get rid of level requirements too?
[/ QUOTE ]
Presumably you've visited MA?
[ QUOTE ]
Why shouldn't a level 10 be able to run the STF or LRSF?
[/ QUOTE ]
Answer one, because they'd be useless.
Answer two, because its a carrot on a stick.
TFs at various levels are theoretically a fun prize for getting that far in the game (yes, the reality is often quite different with many of the older ones).
Arbitrary TF team sizes aren't a reward to anyone, they're a pain in the rear. Ask most people who've tried to organize one.
[ QUOTE ]
I bet a lot of people would like that too!
[/ QUOTE ]
Given the popularity of auto SK in MA, you're probably right.
[ QUOTE ]
Just slide the difficulty level down so that a level 10 could solo it. Tons of happy people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, where did Bill suggest that?
Or wait, are you making stuff up to buttress your feeble argument?
I guess it doesn't carry as much weight as you think it does.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Worthwhile" is purely subjective. I've found your arguments to not be "worthwhile". There's a ton of content in the game that you can partake in solo, just because you want to do something doesn't make it a good reason to be implemented.
[/ QUOTE ]
and vice versa.
Bill makes a much better case for opening up TFs than others do for keeping them gated.
[/ QUOTE ]
I feel my argument carries quite a bit of weight. TFs and SFs, with the exception of Rikti Mothership Raids and Hamidon (which nobody does anymore), are the only special content in the game. Degrade them so that they're on par with radio missions means you have no special content anymore nor anything that stands out. Everything is just basic missions. If you get rid of size requirements, why not get rid of level requirements too? Why shouldn't a level 10 be able to run the STF or LRSF? I bet a lot of people would like that too! Just slide the difficulty level down so that a level 10 could solo it. Tons of happy people.
"Hey, I just solo'd the STF!"
"Big deal. Everyone solos it. I solo'd it twice today with my level 11 Empathy/Radiation defender."
Ooooooh. The feeling of achievement will be staggering!
[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody is talking about debgrading any of the TF's. They are talking about lifting the Minimum team gates. If it was possible to easily solo a STF then that is a flaw with the TF itself. It has nothing to do with the gates.
Most of the time people aren't wanting to solo it. People just want the ability to go ahead and run the TF when they can't get all 8 people together. If that also means they can try to solo it i they want to then more power to them. Some characters might enjoy that challenge. Some characters would find it impossible.
Also, let's note that people already solo TFs.
It's just an annoying process to collect padders, start it and then have them quit.
I used to run a TF once every blue moon or so, when I had more time. More often than not we'd have drops along the way and end up finishing with fewer than the required minimum.
There is no structural reason for the minimums, they're purely arbitrary.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Worthwhile" is purely subjective. I've found your arguments to not be "worthwhile". There's a ton of content in the game that you can partake in solo, just because you want to do something doesn't make it a good reason to be implemented.
[/ QUOTE ]
and vice versa.
Bill makes a much better case for opening up TFs than others do for keeping them gated.
[/ QUOTE ]
I feel my argument carries quite a bit of weight. TFs and SFs, with the exception of Rikti Mothership Raids and Hamidon (which nobody does anymore), are the only special content in the game. Degrade them so that they're on par with radio missions means you have no special content anymore nor anything that stands out. Everything is just basic missions. If you get rid of size requirements, why not get rid of level requirements too? Why shouldn't a level 10 be able to run the STF or LRSF? I bet a lot of people would like that too! Just slide the difficulty level down so that a level 10 could solo it. Tons of happy people.
"Hey, I just solo'd the STF!"
"Big deal. Everyone solos it. I solo'd it twice today with my level 11 Empathy/Radiation defender."
Ooooooh. The feeling of achievement will be staggering!
[/ QUOTE ]
You're not making a case. You're making a groundless statement that this change would degrade the TF/SFs without stating WHY.
As you will no doubt continue to fail at this, you fail at making a case to leave them blocked.
As you continue to ignore that the difficulty will remain the same (minimum 7 team members means all spawns stay set for 7 members even if you're solo) you will continue to lack any punch with the statement "the task will be degraded."
Radio mission don't have AVs. Radio missions are not multiple missions strung together forming a single story. Radio missions don't give a huge reward at the end.
You seem to be under the misconception that allowing a single person to start a TF/SF means that they have the build/skill to get through it. Just what percentage of the player population do you think can handle soloing multiple AVs at once?
You think it's some great achievement to bug a few fellow players to pad in order to get started? News flash: It isn't.
AGAIN: Since you seem to miss it EVERY TIME I've posted it:
The suggested change WILL NOT decrease the difficulty of the TF/SFs. The minimum in place NOW will remain in place. Posi needs three to start? You'd better be able to handle the spawns or not bother trying.
Be well, people of CoH.
It's funny watching you two make the same point over and over. Yes, TFs require a team. Yes, it's arbitrary. Yes, the devs seem to like it that way. You can keep pounding your head against the wall all you want, but that doesn't make it a pillow.
...I forgot what experience means.
[ QUOTE ]
Me? I'll be cranking everything to 11 and hiding for the first month. Or three.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the BillZ we know and love. 
I foresee this thread heading towards a fiery demise.
[ QUOTE ]
I foresee this thread heading towards a fiery demise.
[/ QUOTE ]The status quo for every Perfect_Pain post
PP's name on the new forums should be The Thread Reaper.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the devs seem to like it that way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Should we not be asking the devs to explain why they like it this way when it seems to be pointless to leave it this way?
[ QUOTE ]
Nah, it's the trolls that follow her around.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know when I'm trolling, Clouded. I haven't done so yet in this thread.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
I know when I'm trolling, Clouded. I haven't done so yet in this thread.
[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't mean to imply you were being a troll Billz. It was just a general statement in reply to the ninja guys poster thingy.
My bad. The shoe does fit pretty often, though.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
My bad. The shoe does fit pretty often, though.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats because you dont get enough puppy kisses 
[ QUOTE ]
Also, let's note that people already solo TFs.
It's just an annoying process to collect padders, start it and then have them quit.
I used to run a TF once every blue moon or so, when I had more time. More often than not we'd have drops along the way and end up finishing with fewer than the required minimum.
There is no structural reason for the minimums, they're purely arbitrary.
[/ QUOTE ]
when you start trying to get multiple Babbages at an event. You really see the futility and annoyance of the process. We are expecting 15 Babbages.
I think all but one will be collected solo (one group ran as a trio to the Clock Lord mission).
Thats 14 characters locked out of play for a week (actually upto 2 weeks in some cases) as they sit holding the TF 'open'
15 times the coalition has stopped hopped over to Skyway for a few mins, just to fill out to a team of 4 then quit.
The TF minimum can stay if the Devs want, but the 'virtual teammates' should count towards that minimum.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I feel my argument carries quite a bit of weight.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are of course entititled to that opinion.
[ QUOTE ]
TFs and SFs, with the exception of Rikti Mothership Raids and Hamidon (which nobody does anymore), are the only special content in the game. Degrade them so that they're on par with radio missions means you have no special content anymore nor anything that stands out.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, many of the older hero TFs are mostly generic missions strung together. I'm not sure how that's an argument to preserve minimum team sizes.
[/ QUOTE ]
My feeling is that the earlier task forces should be revamped because they don't fulfill their original design intention.... something that a supergroup would engage in over a couple evenings. Seeing as they're really not ever run that way, I really think those early ones should be streamlined a bit. Any of the newer ones written in the last few years have been much much better designed and need little, if any, modification.
[ QUOTE ]
If the only thing making a TF "stand out" is the annoyance of putting together a team it seems to me getting rid of that annoyance would be an improvement.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a shame you find putting together a team so annoying. What makes them stand out is that they're not something that's considered "casual play". Part of the reason they're not considered casual is because you have to have several like-minded people who are committed to completing them. By fully removing team restrictions, they will then be considered casual play and no different than any other mission, with the exception of having a unique map.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everything is just basic missions. If you get rid of size requirements, why not get rid of level requirements too?
[/ QUOTE ]
Presumably you've visited MA?
[/ QUOTE ]
I've taken part in MA arcs and farms. There's repeated discussion in the boards over whether or not the MA should auto-SK individuals.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why shouldn't a level 10 be able to run the STF or LRSF?
[/ QUOTE ]
Answer one, because they'd be useless.
Answer two, because its a carrot on a stick.
TFs at various levels are theoretically a fun prize for getting that far in the game (yes, the reality is often quite different with many of the older ones).
[/ QUOTE ]
TFs and SFs are not prizes, they're special content. I've never heard a dev refer to one as some kind of prize you get when you hit a certain level.
[ QUOTE ]
Arbitrary TF team sizes aren't a reward to anyone, they're a pain in the rear. Ask most people who've tried to organize one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Purely subective.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet a lot of people would like that too!
[/ QUOTE ]
Given the popularity of auto SK in MA, you're probably right.
[ QUOTE ]
Just slide the difficulty level down so that a level 10 could solo it. Tons of happy people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, where did Bill suggest that?
Or wait, are you making stuff up to buttress your feeble argument?
I guess it doesn't carry as much weight as you think it does.
[/ QUOTE ]
As opposed to arguing just for the sake of it? 
What I said wasn't something I made up, but was the scenario carried out to a logical conclusion. If you remove teaming requirements, then why have arbitrary (since you like that word) level requirements?
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
That should take care of the spam for regular farming missions. Now how are we going to get rid of the AE spam? Since it took 5 years for this to happen, maybe it will take 5 more years to end the AE farm spam.
[ QUOTE ]
Part of the reason they're not considered casual is because you have to have several like-minded people who are committed to completing them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Proven false by those that have soloed them. Not even a second player is needed to be present at completion. They only need to be part of the TF and logged off.
[ QUOTE ]
By fully removing team restrictions, they will then be considered casual play and no different than any other mission, with the exception of having a unique map.
[/ QUOTE ]
Proven false by the same fact laid out above. The current minimum team numbers are meaningless in light of the game's actual functionality, regardless of intent.
[ QUOTE ]
What I said wasn't something I made up, but was the scenario carried out to a logical conclusion. If you remove teaming requirements, then why have arbitrary (since you like that word) level requirements?
[/ QUOTE ]
Slippery Slope Fallacy does not equate to logical conclusion.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
That should take care of the spam for regular farming missions. Now how are we going to get rid of the AE spam? Since it took 5 years for this to happen, maybe it will take 5 more years to end the AE farm spam.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since there are no minimum team requirements for AE, why won't the VTDS also work toward AE spam, since most of that is folks trying to get fillers/pads/door sitters to up the spawn counts as well?
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
That should take care of the spam for regular farming missions. Now how are we going to get rid of the AE spam? Since it took 5 years for this to happen, maybe it will take 5 more years to end the AE farm spam.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh I think it will take care of both. I have no reason to believe the difficulty slider will not work in AE. Therefore, I can play AE in peace without putting up with lowbies (which is why I avoid AE now).
I'm happy I can solo maps set for 8 in peace. I can't wait:
PL Beggar: cna i jion ur taem?
Me: NO.
PL Beggar: *cries*
I have a feeling that the age of lowbies getting free rides is coming to a close, which is wonderful. Farmers can enjoy the game in peace. People that team will discover that the lowbies are starting to disperse from AE once they realize their free ride is over, and teaming just might make a comeback. You might even be graced with a farmer on your team - which usually means the team just got a bit better due to a tricked-out monster being on your team. It just keeps getting better.
[ QUOTE ]
I have a feeling that the age of lowbies getting free rides is coming to a close, which is wonderful. Farmers can enjoy the game in peace. People that team will discover that the lowbies are starting to disperse from AE once they realize their free ride is over, and teaming just might make a comeback. You might even be graced with a farmer on your team - which usually means the team just got a bit better due to a tricked-out monster being on your team. It just keeps getting better.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's a very interesting line of thinking.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Part of the reason they're not considered casual is because you have to have several like-minded people who are committed to completing them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Proven false by those that have soloed them. Not even a second player is needed to be present at completion. They only need to be part of the TF and logged off.
[ QUOTE ]
By fully removing team restrictions, they will then be considered casual play and no different than any other mission, with the exception of having a unique map.
[/ QUOTE ]
Proven false by the same fact laid out above. The current minimum team numbers are meaningless in light of the game's actual functionality, regardless of intent.
[ QUOTE ]
What I said wasn't something I made up, but was the scenario carried out to a logical conclusion. If you remove teaming requirements, then why have arbitrary (since you like that word) level requirements?
[/ QUOTE ]
Slippery Slope Fallacy does not equate to logical conclusion.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just because some people have solo'd them doesn't mean they should be turned into content that is intentionally soloable. Slippery slope fallacies do work their way into MMOs over time. Most MMOs that I've seen that have been out for several years start out with minor changes, then another minor change or two, then eventually turn into something where the players left wonder at what point the game turned into something totally different than the one they originally signed up for.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
[ QUOTE ]
That's a very interesting line of thinking.
[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting as in 'completely wrong' or 'I never thought of it that way'?
All rewards are shared between members. Set a map for 8 and reduce it to two people and each kill basically earns double the rewards. Therefore, anyone that isn't pulling their weight to contribute to the killing speed is leeching. In both power-leveling and farming, having the minimal team size possible set to the maximal size possible gives the best rewards (xp/time is also calculated). Having a bunch of strangers on your team that cannot contribute slows down the earnings for yourself. People are inherently self-centered, even if they are altruistic.
Therefore, if I am farming and I know I can earn faster rewards without the strangers begging for a free ride, I am going to do this. Now, those that haven't studied drop-rates and sought to maximize reward potential may not know this. However the serious farmers know this, and word does spread quickly.
I do believe this is perhaps the best thing that could be done to combat rampant AE power-leveling - even though it enables it.
I understand if it doesn't make too much sense to most. It makes more sense from the lens of a farmer looking at lowbies asking for PLs, and knowing that I can happily solo my map set for 8 without having to enable this negative behavior.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Worthwhile" is purely subjective. I've found your arguments to not be "worthwhile". There's a ton of content in the game that you can partake in solo, just because you want to do something doesn't make it a good reason to be implemented.
[/ QUOTE ]
and vice versa.
Bill makes a much better case for opening up TFs than others do for keeping them gated.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. I think some content should keep minimum team requirements just to be different. I would agree that many of the minimums should be lower, and some should be eliminated completely. But *SOME* should keep a high minimum size.
Without thinking about every TF/trial, I'd say it's probably a third of each for:
- eliminate the restriction
- reduce the minimum
- keep it exactly the way it is
Greater flexibility is good. Homogeneity is not.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project