OMG THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
By
7thCynic,
Posted on: 2009-07-16 11:58 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting as in 'completely wrong' or 'I never thought of it that way'?
[/ QUOTE ]
I hadn't thought of it in that way.
[ QUOTE ]
People are inherently self-centered, even if they are altruistic.
[/ QUOTE ]
And I most assuredly approve of the cut of your jib.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting as in 'completely wrong' or 'I never thought of it that way'?
[/ QUOTE ]
I hadn't thought of it in that way.
[ QUOTE ]
People are inherently self-centered, even if they are altruistic.
[/ QUOTE ]
And I most assuredly approve of the cut of your jib.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good. I was worried that point was a little pessimistic.
Now you know why I think this idea is perhaps the most intelligent thing they could have done - buff the ability for farming so it would be discouraged? Who knew?
Don't worry, come issue 16, AE won't be killing the game. The pink thermals will be. OMG the WORLD IS PINK!1!!!!
I do have one inquiry about the current TF/SF mechanism:
I know that a while back the devs went in and mucked around, but I don't recall if this change is currently in place;
When a team does drop below the minimum required, do the spawns continue to spawn for the rest of the TF/SF at the minimum required level, or the actual level of the number of teammates on the team, logged on or not?
I recall being all happy about the spawns remaining at the minimum required level, but don't believe I experienced that when I soloed the hero side main TFs.
I ask this because IF the spawns do not remain at the minimum required team size level, then TF/SFs degrade *by design.*
My suggestion removes any difficulty degradation and would actually improve the value of the TF/SFs over their current configuration. Granted, it would also make it more difficult for teams that lose players by no choice of their own, but I don't personally see a problem with that.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Part of the reason they're not considered casual is because you have to have several like-minded people who are committed to completing them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Proven false by those that have soloed them. Not even a second player is needed to be present at completion. They only need to be part of the TF and logged off.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just because some people have solo'd them doesn't mean they should be turned into content that is intentionally soloable.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is truth. Just because certain players can solo it does not mean the devs should make it easier to solo. It's designed for teams - if you've put enough effort into your character to be able to solo a TF, you should have no problem forming a temporary team to get you started.
...I forgot what experience means.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Part of the reason they're not considered casual is because you have to have several like-minded people who are committed to completing them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Proven false by those that have soloed them. Not even a second player is needed to be present at completion. They only need to be part of the TF and logged off.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just because some people have solo'd them doesn't mean they should be turned into content that is intentionally soloable.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is truth. Just because certain players can solo it does not mean the devs should make it easier to solo. It's designed for teams - if you've put enough effort into your character to be able to solo a TF, you should have no problem forming a temporary team to get you started.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because hassling other players is good!
Soloing a TF without having to hassle other players so that you can solo it is BAAAAAAAAAD.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
I do have one inquiry about the current TF/SF mechanism:
I know that a while back the devs went in and mucked around, but I don't recall if this change is currently in place;
When a team does drop below the minimum required, do the spawns continue to spawn for the rest of the TF/SF at the minimum required level, or the actual level of the number of teammates on the team, logged on or not?
I recall being all happy about the spawns remaining at the minimum required level, but don't believe I experienced that when I soloed the hero side main TFs.
I ask this because IF the spawns do not remain at the minimum required team size level, then TF/SFs degrade *by design.*
My suggestion removes any difficulty degradation and would actually improve the value of the TF/SFs over their current configuration. Granted, it would also make it more difficult for teams that lose players by no choice of their own, but I don't personally see a problem with that.
[/ QUOTE ]
They drop to match however many players are left on the TF, whether they are logged on or not. Example: 8 players start a Positron TF. 6 quit, leaving 2. New spawns will be sized for 2 players.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Part of the reason they're not considered casual is because you have to have several like-minded people who are committed to completing them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Proven false by those that have soloed them. Not even a second player is needed to be present at completion. They only need to be part of the TF and logged off.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just because some people have solo'd them doesn't mean they should be turned into content that is intentionally soloable.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is truth. Just because certain players can solo it does not mean the devs should make it easier to solo. It's designed for teams - if you've put enough effort into your character to be able to solo a TF, you should have no problem forming a temporary team to get you started.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because hassling other players is good!
Soloing a TF without having to hassle other players so that you can solo it is BAAAAAAAAAD.
[/ QUOTE ]
Aha! And now we get to the heart of the issue. You're projecting your attitude on the rest of the playerbase.
It's not a hassle to help a friend start a TF that they want to solo. It's not a hassle to help out a friend with an influence transfer, and it's not even a hassle to help out a friend with a pesky elite boss in their mission that they can't beat alone.
If you don't have enough friends to help you start a TF, and I'm going to say this as politely as I can, maybe you need to spend less time demanding that the devs cater to your playstyle and more time making friends.
...I forgot what experience means.
[ QUOTE ]
If you don't have enough friends to help you start a TF, and I'm going to say this as politely as I can, maybe you need to spend less time demanding that the devs cater to your playstyle and more time making friends.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh how cute. Can't come up with anything rational or useful to say so you attack my supposed lack of in game friends.
Here's a little story to make you feel bad about your ignorance:
One day I decided to run all the main hero side TFs solo. I knew that I would need one character to remain on my team but logged out to do so. My brother covered that.
Posi: Need 1 more to start "hey Pinnacle badge channel, here's my plan... so throughout the day, if yall can help me get these things started, I'll greatly appreciate it." Player shows up, I start, player quits, brother logs off, I solo without issue.
Synapse: "Ok, folks, ready for round 2! This time I'll need 2." Less than 5 minutes later I'm off on my own.
Sister Psyche: "Round 3, need 3!" 3 show up, 3 leave. I solo TF.
Citadel: "round 4, need 4!" Done.
Manticore: "Round 5, need 5!" This one took a whole 10 minutes to start.
Numina: "Last one, only need 2" Up and started in less than 5.
Total success rate on soloing TFs? 6 for 6.
The only downside to the day? The fact that I had to keep bugging these great people that were more than happy to help me get started and provide chatter and support as I spent I can't remember how long plowing through this *supposed* team content.
In other words, your opinion on my supposed lack of in game friends has about as much worth as your opinion on the topic at hand. Which would be none.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
great people that were more than happy to help me get started
[/ QUOTE ]
So you admit that people don't find it a hassle to help you solo TFs... You solo TFs with no problem and people don't seem to complain about helping you out.
So remind me what your point is again and why the devs need to spend time changing TFs?
...I forgot what experience means.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
great people that were more than happy to help me get started
[/ QUOTE ]
So you admit that people don't find it a hassle to help you solo TFs... You solo TFs with no problem and people don't seem to complain about helping you out.
So remind me what your point is again and why the devs need to spend time changing TFs?
[/ QUOTE ]
This must be the difference between you and I:
I dislike asking for help, especially when I find being forced to ask for that assistance so distasteful. I prefer to be completely self-sufficient when I am able.
When I do run into a task and I meet repeated failure, THEN I will ask for assistance, but only after I ascertain that I am flatly incapable of handling the situation alone.
I'm not like those that run home to momma the first time things get a little rough.
In other words, unlike some people, I Don't Like Bothering Other People, even when they're happy to provide assistance and don't see it as a bother.
So not that I expect you'll grasp the point any more now than you have so far, I'll state it again:
The tech is already being added to the game with issue 16 that will allow us to set a virtual team size. The point of allowing this tech to function with TF/SF minimum team sizes is so that people like me aren't forced to ask others for assistance in starting content that we don't need assistance completing.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
Aha! And now we get to the heart of the issue. You're projecting your attitude on the rest of the playerbase.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think most of the playerbase would prefer to enjoy the game without hassling other players.
[ QUOTE ]
It's not a hassle to help a friend start a TF that they want to solo.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are many circumstances where it would indeed be a hassle. Think about it, you can probably come up with some.
And it's irrelevant to the point anyway.
Putting the capability in the hands of the players directly is a superior solution to having people bug other players to pad for them.
This is the logic behind the upcoming changes to the missions settings, and in my opinion ought to be applied to TFs as well.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Would you find it a good comprimise to make all TFs and SFs only require 3 people ???
I think that is a reasonable half way point on the TF/SF/Trial matter.
[ QUOTE ]
Would you find it a good comprimise to make all TFs and SFs only require 3 people ???
I think that is a reasonable half way point on the TF/SF/Trial matter.
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally I would much rather see scalable rewards on the TF/SF/Trials. If you perform it with a team that meets the normal requirements then you get full reward. If you perform it by yourself or with a smaller team the rewards will also scale back.
You still get the badge for completion; but the reward merits, end-of-mission xp and inf bonus, etc will be substantially less. This will also be further affected by the difficulty level you set and any other restrictions you may choose.
My mind wanders so often you've probably seen its picture on milk cartons. - Me... the first person version of the third person Steelclaw
[ QUOTE ]
Would you find it a good comprimise to make all TFs and SFs only require 3 people ???
I think that is a reasonable half way point on the TF/SF/Trial matter.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. Nor do I think the rewards should be lessened. If you can accomplish something solo that others need a team for, you should get the same rewards as the team.
Be well, people of CoH.
The original design intent for these tasks leans towards long tasks requiring a group over an extended period of time, with a badge showing you got it done. Originally, these rewarded a simple Single Origin and a badge, a far cry from the 20-111 Merits they reward now.
I would love TFs to be padded upwards. Here are my concerns:
New player fiddles with difficulty settings, starts a Posi tf and finds themselves overwhelmed. They quit and get cold feet about TFs.
New brand of 'AV/TF Soloer' builds emerge, forcing the developers to re-examine rewards or TF difficulty overall.
Yes, I know Catwhoorg, BillZ and others likely pad their TFs so they can solo. I love to solo and at times I find it hard to get teams (Pinnacle villainside has been quiet tonight 
) so I have to solo. I don't think I have many builds outside of my Ill/Rad, Rad/Therm or Storm/Sonic that could solo the end bosses.
If they allow the scaling to affect Task/Strike forces, I would like the following warning on all TFs/SFs:
"This task is meant for a group. While you may be able to complete it alone, be aware the task is long and has difficult foes meant toward group play. Try doing it with friends or a group before you engage it alone."
That way, players ARE warned and the Devs have an out. Soloists familiar with the TF can still breeze it as well.
I really, really want to solo a Respec TF on my Kat/Regen but who knows if I'll be able to on my own/be able to get the ability to do so.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
I back such warnings 100%. Also, I believe that there is at least one TF with a mission containing simultaneous click glowies, yes?
Those would need a warning flatly stating "This taskforce can not be completed with less than X number of players."
For new players, I would think that the percentage that messes around with their difficulty slider for the first time before starting a TF in Steel Canyon would be small enough to be considered negligible.
For specific builds being built for soloing task forces, that already takes place, but I would hope that the devs would always be on the lookout for such things. Just today someone was requesting build advice which other posters recognized would be used specifically for farming specific enemies in the AE.
Lastly, Neuronia, thank you for coming in with solid possible objections to opening up the TF/SFs to soloists. You raise good points and they do need to be considered before such a change is implemented.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
I dislike asking for help, especially when I find being forced to ask for that assistance so distasteful. I prefer to be completely self-sufficient when I am able.
[/ QUOTE ]
This. I completely agree and live with by that statement. When i Farm it's usually just me, and sometimes friends. I never ask for pads because it's so bothersome and quite frankly I respect others folks game enjoyment and don't want to ruin it for others.
The team scale ability should be offered for TFs/SFs as well. I'm one of those few players who can solo a TF/SF, but I choose not to. It's too time consuming, not fun and a lot of thought goes into it at times. If folks want challenges of that order let them have it I say. It won't ruin TF's/SF's in my opinion.
[ QUOTE ]
I back such warnings 100%. Also, I believe that there is at least one TF with a mission containing simultaneous click glowies, yes?
Those would need a warning flatly stating "This taskforce can not be completed with less than X number of players."
[/ QUOTE ]
There are 3 that I can recall:
Hess (2 minimum), Doc Quaterfield (4) and Faathim (4)
I dont recall any redside, but am, much less familiar with the SFs.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Part of the reason they're not considered casual is because you have to have several like-minded people who are committed to completing them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Proven false by those that have soloed them. Not even a second player is needed to be present at completion. They only need to be part of the TF and logged off.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just because some people have solo'd them doesn't mean they should be turned into content that is intentionally soloable.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is truth. Just because certain players can solo it does not mean the devs should make it easier to solo. It's designed for teams - if you've put enough effort into your character to be able to solo a TF, you should have no problem forming a temporary team to get you started.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a fallacy in thinking. TFs aren't special because of what they contain, they are special because of the label because they have been given. Aside from a notable few, most TFs are, really, just glorified story arcs, some not even that. The notion that they are "special" and should remain so is, therefore, unfounded, because the same notion can be held for any piece of content the game has to offer. It's fairly trivial to take all of Outbreak, slap an 8-man minimum requirement on it and call it a TF. That will not make it "special" in any way, shape or form. Not any more than it was before.
The proper question is "what's stopping a level 10 from soloing the Recluse Strike Force, then?" The answer is fairly obvious - like hell he can! Why shouldn't a single player solo the Imperious Task Force? The answer is the same - because Nictus Romulus is a bear enough to topple entire TEAMS, let alone a single player. So maybe a single player can do it. If a single player wanted to, he can do so now, though at a significant cost of hassle.
The notion that the TF mechanic itself makes grandfathered Task Force content "special" is a fallacy on its face. Special content is special only when the content itself is special, not when it is given a special tag. If a TF can be attempted outside of TF mode by a single player and that player finds it practically indistinguishable from any story arc, then that TF is NOT special. It's an arbitrarily chosen bit of content locked away behind a team requirement because SOMETHING had to be locked behind a team requirement by the developers' old mentality back in 2002-2004.
In very simple terms: if any average player would be able to solo a TF without any particularly special difficulty if not for the TF mode, then the TF is not special.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Yay now I don't have to share my xp with random low levels.
[ QUOTE ]
They drop to match however many players are left on the TF, whether they are logged on or not. Example: 8 players start a Positron TF. 6 quit, leaving 2. New spawns will be sized for 2 players.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, that is not my understanding of it, I thought that is how it used to work, but they changed it to not go below the minimum requirements of the TF some time ago (about I10 or 11). Hmmm, I wonder how easy it is to verify this.
Also; warnings dont work.
Saying
[ QUOTE ]
"This task is meant for a group. While you may be able to complete it alone, be aware the task is long and has difficult foes meant toward group play. Try doing it with friends or a group before you engage it alone."
[/ QUOTE ]
is tantamount to saying:
[ QUOTE ]
"This task is meant for really awesome players. You will be able to complete it alone, if you are awesome enough. Be aware the task is long and has difficult foes that have awesome rewards. Try doing it with friends or a group if you are lame."
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They drop to match however many players are left on the TF, whether they are logged on or not. Example: 8 players start a Positron TF. 6 quit, leaving 2. New spawns will be sized for 2 players.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, that is not my understanding of it, I thought that is how it used to work, but they changed it to not go below the minimum requirements of the TF some time ago (about I10 or 11). Hmmm, I wonder how easy it is to verify this.
[/ QUOTE ]
The abiove description is exactly right. The 'not drop below minimum' was in place for a short while (IIRC 4 weeks) as a quick fix to certain exploitative behaviour whilst the longer term fix was coded.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
[ QUOTE ]
Oh I think it will take care of both. I have no reason to believe the difficulty slider will not work in AE. Therefore, I can play AE in peace without putting up with lowbies (which is why I avoid AE now).
I'm happy I can solo maps set for 8 in peace. I can't wait:
PL Beggar: cna i jion ur taem?
Me: NO.
PL Beggar: *cries*
I have a feeling that the age of lowbies getting free rides is coming to a close, which is wonderful. Farmers can enjoy the game in peace. People that team will discover that the lowbies are starting to disperse from AE once they realize their free ride is over, and teaming just might make a comeback. You might even be graced with a farmer on your team - which usually means the team just got a bit better due to a tricked-out monster being on your team. It just keeps getting better.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm confused by this sorry if I do not understand - which zone are you taking your AE missions in?
I go to Peregrine with my 50's when I want to do AE missions - never see any lowbies there 
[ QUOTE ]
It's a shame you find putting together a team so annoying.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't annoy me because I don't do it.
I team with my friends or solo, or occasionally join a desperate PUG if the leader sends a polite enough tell.
I have seen plenty of leaders on plenty of teams working overtime trying to find members, and I've drawn certain obvious conclusions about the process.
[ QUOTE ]
What makes them stand out is that they're not something that's considered "casual play".
[/ QUOTE ]
Why not, since they're just "groups of common missions" strung together, by your own description?
If a TF is special on its own merits, it doesn't need a team minimum to make it special.
If it isn't special, a team minimum doesn't help.
And minimums don't stop people from soloing them, it's just a needless layer of annoyance.
[ QUOTE ]
By fully removing team restrictions, they will then be considered casual play and no different than any other mission, with the exception of having a unique map.
[/ QUOTE ]
They'll still present whatever challenges made them special and interesting to however many players attempt them.
People solo TFs right now, people run and complete them with less than the "required" # of players right now.
Minimum team size is an anachronism from an outdated design brief and it should be done away with.
Annoying players without reason does not equal "special".
[ QUOTE ]
I've taken part in MA arcs and farms.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then I'm not sure why you asked a question you should already know the answer for.
[ QUOTE ]
TFs and SFs are not prizes, they're special content.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes they are prizes.
You get badges for them. You get a disproportionate merit reward for completing them. You can only run them in certain level ranges.
That's a carrot on a stick- or should be, if the TF is any good.
[ QUOTE ]
I've never heard a dev refer to one as some kind of prize you get when you hit a certain level.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've never had a dev tell me a Great Dane is a big dog but it's obvious to anyone with eyes.
[ QUOTE ]
Arbitrary TF team sizes aren't a reward to anyone, they're a pain in the rear. Ask most people who've tried to organize one.
[ QUOTE ]
Purely subective.
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
It's more work to put a team together to run something than to run it solo. There's nothing subjective about it.
Which is, come to think of it, the only thing that actually supports your position. And yet you reject it.
Interesting.
[ QUOTE ]
As opposed to arguing just for the sake of it?
What I said wasn't something I made up, but was the scenario carried out to a logical conclusion.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it was arrant nonsense in direct contravention of Bill's suggestions. I'm speaking in support of those suggestions, not any fantasy you dream up in a failed attempt to undermine his logic.
Your position is weak, you made something up, you got called on it, now you try to justify it.
You'll do better in a debate setting if you stop reflexively lashing out at everything you don't understand. Stop and think for a minute first, you'll avoid a lot of embarrassment.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone