OMG THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
By
7thCynic,
Posted on: 2009-07-16 11:58 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Doesn't that already exist?
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Yes, but make it even more noticable.
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So make it so it is more profitable to have others sit in your mish at the door instead of just setting it for a higher number of people? Gotta think like an evil farmer.
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So make it so it is more profitable to have others sit in your mish at the door instead of just setting it for a higher number of people? Gotta think like an evil farmer.
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As long as there's players that are content to let others play the game for them, there's not much point in trying to stop it.
I imagine the time spent forming a full team would cut into the farmer's "profit" anyway.
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If Task Force storylines were more accessible to everyone, rather than solely to the team leader...
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It would be great if the whole team received a pop-up window with the text that the team leader sees, in which they can read it and click ok when done. This applies to MA stories also, the whole team rates an MA arc, when only the leader had a chance to actually read the story.
A team-wide text window is needed for both TFs and MA arcs.
~MM
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So why punish the soloist or the married couple that wants to take their time clearing all the missions and reading all the text?
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What punishment? Why do people, as soon as they're told they have to meet a certain requirement for something, think they're being punished? If you want to run a task force or strike force, start a team. The very name of them ("task force" and "strike force") implies a team.
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Having to waste X amount of time trying to put together a team is a punishment for people with little time to play.
Having to leave a TF/SF due to real life issues is a punishment both to the player and the team. Being able to start a TF/SF solo means that you can turn off your monitor, go deal with real life and come back to finish at your leisure. No put out team mates, no feeling bad for letting your team down.
[/ QUOTE ]"Punishment" -noun
1. the act of punishing.
2. the fact of being punished, as for an offense or fault.
3. a penalty inflicted for an offense, fault, etc.
4. severe handling or treatment.
Punishment is having your account locked because you did something offensive in-game. Punishment is being kicked from a team because you keep generating too much aggro and don't follow directions. Being told "you have to meet these requirements before you can engage in X" is not punishment. Why should people who don't take a drivers test be punished by not being given a license? Why should someone who just joined the game be punished by not being allowed to create a Kheldian? Why should we be punished by having to waste time by traveling across several zones to get to our mission? Why should I be punished by not being able to buy purple recipes at the vendors? For that matter, why should I be punished by being denied all the good IOs and being forced to buy them from other players through the market? Farmers get a ton of influence and recipes and it's not fair that they get those things just because they're willing to put the time into it, I should be able to get them too so I must be being punished since I can't.
There is content within the game that is special and requires special effort. Slotting up with IOs is one example. If you want them, you have to either keep fighting mobs until the one you want drops (and since it's random, it may never drop) or buy them from other players. There are archetypes that require you have reached level 50 with a character before you're allowed to create them. And there are story arcs that require you team with a minimum amount of other players before you are given them. If we want to remove the requirements from those task forces/strike forces, why not remove all requirements for all of the other content and just give everyone everything?
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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Drop the team member limitation on TF/SFs, but increase xp based on number of team members. Reward teaming instead of forcing it.
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Nobody's "forcing" you to do anything. And don't try the "if I want to do this, then I'm being forced.....". No. You're not. Nothing is forced on you.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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If Task Force storylines were more accessible to everyone, rather than solely to the team leader...
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It would be great if the whole team received a pop-up window with the text that the team leader sees, in which they can read it and click ok when done. This applies to MA stories also, the whole team rates an MA arc, when only the leader had a chance to actually read the story.
A team-wide text window is needed for both TFs and MA arcs.
~MM
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I think the best way would be to design Task Forces so that players can get the gist of the story without having to go through all the text.
The ITF is probably the best for this. Or maybe the missions are just epic on their own.
Wow, Barata, hyperbole much?
To strip your argument down a bit, you're stating that there is no difference between achieving the minimum team requirements in order to do a task force and farming for days on end to get purples.
I believe that's called a straw man fallacy.
Fact of being punished: Child falls down stairs and must be rushed to ER. Parent unable to stay with team and gets kicked from TF. Parent is punished.
There was no reason to post a definition. Especially when doing so proves my point.
It is my belief that a person should be forced to get a license proving training has occurred before they are allowed to breed. Not having such a license and training has shown to lead to much lousy parenting across this planet.
I agree that all drivers should have license and training to prove that they know the rules of the road and won't be a danger to those around them.
Castle has stated that the minimum reqs for TF/SFs are in place for no other reason but:
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Seriously, though, to the best of my knowledge we won't be changing minimum sizes of TF's/SF's. The minimum sizes stand as "warning labels" to newer players that these missions are more difficult/time consuming/whatever than other missions. It's a small, but important function.
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So leave them in place. New players won't be able to handle running around with their difficulty set to a team of 5/6/7/8. They'll learn this long before they get to positron unless they're doing nothing but getting powerleveled in the AE. In which case, fark 'em.
I'll state this again: What makes the TF/SFs special is NOT the minimum requirement. It's the content. Content that is being blocked to:
A: People with lives
B: People that don't like people
C: People that have life happen
There is absolutely no relation, AS STATED BY CASTLE, between TF/SF min req and having to get a hero to 50 before unlocking Kheldians. Or get fully loaded out with purples before you're a PvE god. Or any of the other tripe you listed.
EDIT: And let's not forget that the devs have CHOSEN to leave a known exploit in the game allowing a team to drop below the minimum requirements down to two players and have one log off.
What's better? Utilizing known exploits and bugging people to pad, or utilizing the tech we're about to be given to make soloing TF/SFs on the up and up?
I know which one is more honorable.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I think the best way would be to design Task Forces so that players can get the gist of the story without having to go through all the text.
The ITF is probably the best for this. Or maybe the missions are just epic on their own.
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Agreed the ITF has those epic missions, plus quite a few cut scenes that inform the team, but for MA arcs the text window would be nice so when I'm asked to rate an arc I have something to rate it on.
~MM
This is just my opinion, but I also believe we should lower the team size limitation for tasks forces.
Inquizitor makes a solid argument on page 18 here of why it is a good idea, so Im not going to repeat what has already been posted. I do want to go a step further and point out that with the increasing number of people 30+ parked in Atlas Park only seeking AE teams its getting harder and harder to find people who want to do tasks forces at the higher levels.
There are some of these task forces that are solo friendly and it has also been both fun and challenging to find ways to solo task forces over the years. But, Yes, I'll buy into the concept that certain things in the game should be geared toward team/coop teams. In that respect, I would be fine still teaming for a task force.
As it stands right now you can spend hours recruiting for a shadow shard task force and the team will fold because you can't find 8 people.
I'd like to see them all set to 4 people minimum. Maybe I'll get the couple of the task force badges I still don't have. :P
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If Task Force storylines were more accessible to everyone, rather than solely to the team leader...
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It would be great if the whole team received a pop-up window with the text that the team leader sees, in which they can read it and click ok when done. This applies to MA stories also, the whole team rates an MA arc, when only the leader had a chance to actually read the story.
A team-wide text window is needed for both TFs and MA arcs.
~MM
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As it currently stands, the only text team members don't get access to (but leaders do) is the return-to-contact text. All mission briefings and send-off text boxes can be read by anyone if they click the red starburst up in the nav window once the mission is set. This is true for TF/MA/regular missions.
It's not widely known, but folks who want to follow what's going on can definitely do so.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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I'll state this again: What makes the TF/SFs special is NOT the minimum requirement. It's the content. Content that is being blocked to:
A: People with lives
B: People that don't like people
C: People that have life happen
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I'm sick of this holier-than-thou attitude regarding players that have issues doing TFs, and the insinuation that people who can do TFs don't have lives.
Playing an MMO is just like any other hobby. If you dedicate time and energy to it, you can participate in all the content. If you can only play in short doses, or insist on soloing, then you may not be able to experience everything.
If you windsurfed a couple of times every year, you'd probably complain that the weeklong trip to the Caribbean was too much time and effort, and the tour company should make it so you can go down there for an afternoon to windsurf by yourself.
If you went dancing once a month, you'd probably complain that an exchange weekend was too much time and effort, and that you should be able to see all the amazing bands on your own schedule instead of traveling to see them all play the same weekend.
There are plenty of hobbies that I put less time and energy into than CoH, but I certainly don't make demands on the organizers of those hobbies to allow me to experience everything having to do with that hobby even though I'm only a casual participant.
...I forgot what experience means.
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I'll state this again: What makes the TF/SFs special is NOT the minimum requirement. It's the content. Content that is being blocked to:
A: People with lives
B: People that don't like people
C: People that have life happen
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I'm sick of this holier-than-thou attitude regarding players that have issues doing TFs, and the insinuation that people who can do TFs don't have lives.
Playing an MMO is just like any other hobby. If you dedicate time and energy to it, you can participate in all the content. If you can only play in short doses, or insist on soloing, then you may not be able to experience everything.
If you windsurfed a couple of times every year, you'd probably complain that the weeklong trip to the Caribbean was too much time and effort, and the tour company should make it so you can go down there for an afternoon to windsurf by yourself.
If you went dancing once a month, you'd probably complain that an exchange weekend was too much time and effort, and that you should be able to see all the amazing bands on your own schedule instead of traveling to see them all play the same weekend.
There are plenty of hobbies that I put less time and energy into than CoH, but I certainly don't make demands on the organizers of those hobbies to allow me to experience everything having to do with that hobby even though I'm only a casual participant.
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Nicely said.
It boils down to perception though.
I'm guessing Billz sees this as a game, and not a hobby. Unlike yourself.
EDIT: there's nothing wrong with that either. I wouldn't mind the ability to solo TFs when I can't find the time to join a group but I'm not delusional to think my wants are the majority nor the best for the vision/direction of the game either. I play because it's enjoyable, not really concerned about joining a TF or what other players are doing.
People do realize they can set TFs up in advance, right?
You oculd get together with a group, do half the TF one day and the other half the next, if you're strapped for time. Heck! You could do the other half 3 weeks later, if you wanted.
So the time investiture really isn't much of an argument if you ask me. So A and C in Billz' list are pointless. Leaving only B: The Antisocial player. And really, there's nothing anyone can say or do to make the antisocial player drop his limitless case that all content must be soloable. Why? Because it's not his problem if nothing in the game is team oriented. It -is- his problem if something in the game is team oriented.
-Rachel-
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So the time investiture really isn't much of an argument if you ask me. So A and C in Billz' list are pointless. Leaving only B: The Antisocial player.
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Also D: The player who wants the full story, and to take it at his/her own pace.
Putting together a team of 8 people to do a TF may not be that difficult. Putting together a team of 8 people who don't want to speed run it is difficult.
I like TFs - there's a lot of good stuff in them - interesting stories, unique maps, encounters and enemies. I'm just tired of going to the Wiki following a TF to find out what I just did.
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So the time investiture really isn't much of an argument if you ask me. So A and C in Billz' list are pointless. Leaving only B: The Antisocial player.
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Also D: The player who wants the full story, and to take it at his/her own pace.
Putting together a team of 8 people to do a TF may not be that difficult. Putting together a team of 8 people who don't want to speed run it is difficult.
I like TFs - there's a lot of good stuff in them - interesting stories, unique maps, encounters and enemies. I'm just tired of going to the Wiki following a TF to find out what I just did.
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Point made, Legree. And I agree.
-Rachel-
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I'm sick of this holier-than-thou attitude regarding players that have issues doing TFs, and the insinuation that people who can do TFs don't have lives.
Playing an MMO is just like any other hobby. If you dedicate time and energy to it, you can participate in all the content. If you can only play in short doses, or insist on soloing, then you may not be able to experience everything.
If you windsurfed a couple of times every year, you'd probably complain that the weeklong trip to the Caribbean was too much time and effort, and the tour company should make it so you can go down there for an afternoon to windsurf by yourself.
If you went dancing once a month, you'd probably complain that an exchange weekend was too much time and effort, and that you should be able to see all the amazing bands on your own schedule instead of traveling to see them all play the same weekend.
There are plenty of hobbies that I put less time and energy into than CoH, but I certainly don't make demands on the organizers of those hobbies to allow me to experience everything having to do with that hobby even though I'm only a casual participant.
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Personally, I'm sick of this holier-than-thou attitude that states TF/SFs should *continue* to be locked to X team size when the content itself for *most* of them isn't hard enough to warrant a team only designation.
If I wanted to go windsurfing, I have countless beaches that I could go to all on my own because I have the resources and wherewithal to not bother with a tour company.
When I want to go dancing, I can do so whenever I want either alone or with a partner. I find an appropriate location and go after it.
CoH is a hobby of mine. One I've kept on my radar for well over four years. I like to see my hobbies improved. As this one has been. I like my skill with my hobby improved, as I've done so with this one.
Having been part of this thread, I've seen only ONE argument against changing/improving how TF/SFs are started: "It's supposed to be team content!"
I continue to refute that by stating that the devs already allow us to solo this content by way of hassling other players for pads and exploiting the logoff bug. This truth has been ignored each time I brought it up.
I also refute this with the fact that the majority of the TF/SFs in this game are NOT hard enough to warrant this mythical "team only" designation. The Hamidon is a group activity. Possibly the LRSF and STF are group activities. These are events that CAN NOT be soloed. (Probably.)
And yet we continue to have a group of people that are rabidly against giving us the ability to run soloable content without hassling other people when the tech to do so is being added to the game.
Interesting.
I am not asking for the AVs to be reduced to EBs while solo. That WOULD diminish the task. I'm not asking for the difficulty to be reduced AT ALL. If I want to solo Manticore, which I have done so, I should be FORCED to solo the entire event as set for the minimum number of players designated.
EDIT: And while I'm in rant mode, let's talk about time investments, shall we? How much time to do you think I've spent respecing my main in order to pull off the tasks I set before him? He's got none left. Zero. Nada. No trialspecs. No vetspecs. No freespecs. All used. Most done on the test server multiple times before being done on live.
How much time do you think I've had to play in order to get him fully outfitted? How many enemies killed and items sold were necessary? Granted, my brother helped me out some after he got himself outfitted, but unlike him, I'm not in an active group, nor do I have more than a single account.
How about forum time? Researching builds? Crunching numbers with other like-minded scrappers?
How many thousands of hours have I poured into this game and my main character?
Time investment? Yes, I know all about investing time to get what one desires. I just deleted my main villain who hit 50 shortly after they raised the level cap on the villain side. He hit 16 in about 8 hours of solo play.
I could cheat. I could have him powerleveled. I could have multiple accounts and farm every night. But I don't. Instead, I promote change when change makes sense.
As it makes sense here.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Having been part of this thread, I've seen only ONE argument against changing/improving how TF/SFs are started: "It's supposed to be team content!"
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And they also seem to conveniently ignore the fact that a "team" does not have to consist of 6 or more players to, in fact, be a team. There aren't any particularly good arguments against allowing solo players to access TF's, and there are NO good arguments against allowing smaller teams to access them.
If this was a democracy, you'd have a point. But since the devs make the rule, the only "argument" anyone needs is "because the devs have deemed TFs/SFs as team content."
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Having been part of this thread, I've seen only ONE argument against changing/improving how TF/SFs are started: "It's supposed to be team content!"
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And they also seem to conveniently ignore the fact that a "team" does not have to consist of 6 or more players to, in fact, be a team. There aren't any particularly good arguments against allowing solo players to access TF's, and there are NO good arguments against allowing smaller teams to access them.
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As long as the difficulty stays set for the minimum required teammates. You start on 1st diff with the virtual team slider set to 7 for Manticore, it stays that way throughout with AVs staying AVs. If you can't manage it, then you should have brought more players.
Be well, people of CoH.
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If this was a democracy, you'd have a point. But since the devs make the rule, the only "argument" anyone needs is "because the devs have deemed TFs/SFs as team content."
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Absolutely true, Clouded. Which is why it's our lot to persuade the devs to change their minds when they make a decision that either lacks sense or no longer has validity.
If Positron comes into the thread and states, "We will never allow the virtual team difficulty slider to be recognized by TF/SF minimum team member requirements and those that wish to solo these events will be forced to continue using exploits to do so, thus diminishing the event on two fronts" so be it.
Be well, people of CoH.
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If I wanted to go windsurfing, I have countless beaches that I could go to all on my own because I have the resources and wherewithal to not bother with a tour company.
When I want to go dancing, I can do so whenever I want either alone or with a partner. I find an appropriate location and go after it.
CoH is a hobby of mine. One I've kept on my radar for well over four years. I like to see my hobbies improved. As this one has been. I like my skill with my hobby improved, as I've done so with this one.
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Thank you for proving my point.
If you want to play CoH solo, you can do it whenever you want (barring server downtime). There are countless mission you can go to all on your own because you have the resources and wherewithal to not bother forming a team. You can do those missions alone or with a partner in an appropriate location.
However, if you want to run a TF, go on a windsurfing tour, or participate in an exchange weekend, you're going to have to learn to play with other people and invest a sizable chunk of time. That was the decision of the developers/tour operators/dance organizers and until they decide otherwise, you're out of luck.
...I forgot what experience means.
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and until they decide otherwise
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And welcome to the point. I've laid out my arguments for change. I've seen no worthwhile arguments against this change.
Be well, people of CoH.
I made this thread because I am excited about what they are implementing... Not about wishes they would implement 
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Absolutely true, Clouded. Which is why it's our lot to persuade the devs to change their minds when they make a decision that either lacks sense or no longer has validity.
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It's hard to find an acceptable reason for the team requirements. Perhaps the devs really do wish some content to be completed by more then one person to maintain the social/interaction aspect of the MMO. I.E. Forced teaming.
I don't mind either way really. I can usually find time once a weak for a shorter TF/SF, but I would probably run various TFs/SFs spread over days/weeks if I could set them up myself (without a team requirement).
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Doesn't that already exist?
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Yes, but make it even more noticable.