That August survey was just marketing goin' crazy
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-06-19 23:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Yes yes ... FINE!
But when will we be able to talk to fish?
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It is part of City of Herring, duh! 
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You totally forgot Dual Archery Defense! 
[/ QUOTE ]And of course, new three armed character models to allow for Dual Blades/Shields characters.
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I did forget these, along with the new Giant Tapeworm trial!
Sorry, my bad 
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I could really do without the Giant Tapeworm trial.........
thats just a really disturbing thought.
"YOU DID NOT READ THE THREAD. GO READ THE LONG, LONG THREAD.
Then, perhaps your butt cheeks will relinquish their grip on your chin." -The_Zekiran
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Every time some of us pointed out the detailed plans laid out in the August survey, many of you were quick to say "Hey that was just marketing folks regurgitating all our wish lists. No way all that stuff is planned!" Let's do a little review:
MA: Check.
Side switching in Going Rogue: Check.
Power customization in i16: Check.
But I'm sure we'll never see a Spy archetype or universal enhancement slots, right? If only they had put items on that survey that the devs were actually planning on implementing!
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It would be a big mistake to take that marketing survey as a roadmap for future content. I can think of at least 2 things that were on there that were either radically changed or outright cut, and a bunch of stuff that's not on there, but are being worked on right now.
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First, I have to say my head is spinning a bit. I've never had a dev reply to a thread I started. So thank you for that. 
On top of that, earlier today I posted a query in the Technical Issues and Bugs forum asking for news about the new forum software, and 4 hours later they announce the new forums. It was probably a simple coincidence but it sure felt like my question directly prompted the response!
I must wield my newfound powers to call out dev responses carefully. With great power comes great responsibility.
Oh, and just to be clear Babs, here's something I said a few posts after the one you quoted from me:
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The many times I've discussed this survey I repeatedly stressed that I understood that it wasn't a contract to implement *everything* on the list. But once it became clear that it wasn't a hoax, a little common sense would tell you that they obviously put a list in there of things they thought would be practical to implement and profitable. The beef I had was with people who hand-waved the survey away as the opium dream of a bunch of marketers, when it was obvious to some of us that it was a snapshot of the best ideas they had at the time.
So, am I absolutely sure there's going to be a Spy archetype, moon zone, or universal enhancement slots? Of course not. They may have decided that those weren't practical. Or they may have brainstormed great new feature ideas since last August that pushed those to the back burner. Or those features may be getting worked on right now. No outsider knows.
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Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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What Pendix is passively noting is that I wrote the arc of which he speaks.
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I would have used the same example reguardless of who I was responding too. (changing the names to protect the inocent)
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Now, if you want to argue the betterment of the game as a whole, the betterment of other people's experiences, the usefulness to SGs, VGs, badgers, farmers, frustrated creatives and so on, sure, probably blows their doors off. But I'm not speaking for them. I can't.
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Which is a point that largely got lost/missed in the early stages of this disscussion.
And I dont think anyone is telling you have to be enthuastic about anything, they just dont understand why you are not enthuastic, and asking for an explination (which is provided, but the premis of which is then disaggreed with, and things deteroiate from there ).
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Now, if you want to argue the betterment of the game as a whole, the betterment of other people's experiences, the usefulness to SGs, VGs, badgers, farmers, frustrated creatives and so on, sure, probably blows their doors off. But I'm not speaking for them. I can't.
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Which is a point that largely got lost/missed in the early stages of this disscussion.
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And I dont think anyone is telling you have to be enthuastic about anything, they just dont understand why you are not enthuastic, and asking for an explination (which is provided, but the premis of which is then disaggreed with, and things deteroiate from there ).
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The point was missed early on, because it was not there.
Early on, he did NOT say that it was badly implemented for his needs, or that it was good for others. That only came later.
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He flatly judged that the first things on the list were 'badly implemented'. A subjective judgement. He pretended that he would be proven right, but that can only be right or wrong, with objective judgements.
He DID CLEARLY give his explanation right from the start. We did not have to ask.
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Me, I just hoped it wouldn't go through because I believed that every idea in it would be implemented badly. So far I'm pretty much expectant to be right.
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He said that the things from the survey so far were badly implemented and expects the rest of the list would be too. He suggested that he could be proven right, which cannot be proven of a subjective judgment.
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Oh, and good writing and bad writing are not, in fact, pure matters of opinion. Good design and bad design are equally not. A lot of the [censored] that gets churned out by the AE is emperically bad. It's not just my 'opinion' that most people are incompetent writers, it's an observation backed up by fact.
[/ QUOTE ] This is just not true, unless we have set up an agreed upon set of [u]objective[u] criteria, then better or worse, good and bad, ARE just subjective opinion.
I could easily make subjective judgments, like:
* Rock and Pop are good. Jazz is evil. or
* Anime is bad.
But I could not say, that I could be proven 'right' about those subjective opinions.
That is where the problem came in, his pretense that his subjective opinion was objective truth.
If I made an objective judgement, like "More people like Rock than like Jazz", then THAT could be proven right or wrong.
But I could never appropriately say "Jazz is good", or "Gospel is better than Blues" and expect people to accept that I had said something objective, or that those statements could be proven right or wrong.
Unless I have been deemed the authorized judge of the topic, I don't get to say "X is badly implemented." (It could be proven that I think so... but not that it is true)
Instead, I really only have the right to say "I don't like X's implementation" Or "N (number or percentage) of the people don't like X."
Those could be proven to be right or true or false.
That is my first and only ever comment on this subject.
And for the OP suggetion? That got PWNZD by Babs!
So I am outa here.
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9.) Universal Enhancement Slots - at level 50, these enhance powers to the character, essentially bringing them to a hypothetical "Level 60" once they have earned all ten slots - possibly redesigned/cut
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I hope not cut, this one would actually be a great idea. Would help power up powers you get late in the game that can only fit a couple of slots and offers better IO capabilities.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
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EDIT: Also, stuff confirmed by BaBs as possibly being worked on :
<ul type="square"> [*]Having the game emit Gamma Radiation so we can all actually get super powers.[*]Carp Melee[*]Clown AT[*]Broadsword Blast[*]City of Herring expansion[*]New 'Featureless plain' zone[*]Customisation Customisation, to let us each decide exactly how much Customisation is available to us.[/list]
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You totally forgot Dual Archery Defense!
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And why no mention of the Big Red Ball Combat Zone?
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
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EDIT: Also, stuff confirmed by BaBs as possibly being worked on :
<ul type="square"> [*]Having the game emit Gamma Radiation so we can all actually get super powers.[*]Carp Melee[*]Clown AT[*]Broadsword Blast[*]City of Herring expansion[*]New 'Featureless plain' zone[*]Customisation Customisation, to let us each decide exactly how much Customisation is available to us.[/list]
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You totally forgot Dual Archery Defense!
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And why no mention of the Big Red Ball Combat Zone?
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touche'
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
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This is just not true, unless we have set up an agreed upon set of [u]objective[u] criteria, then better or worse, good and bad, ARE just subjective opinion.
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While objective criteria are needed to assign a comparative value to an object, this criteria is often implied. As an example, "good" and "bad" are usually used in a subjective manner. We can assume, however, that everyone's opinion on a given topic will represent a graphical curve we can use as a basis for our criteria.
"Poop smells bad."
This is a subjective statement. We can assume, in relative safety, however, that a statistically significant portion of the population will share this opinion. With poop as a lower boundary of our criteria and, say, flowers as our upper boundary, we have established an implied measure of criteria. There will be people that think poop smells good and flowers smell bad, but for the purposes of our comparison, this is a statistically insignificant portion of the population.
Using these same guidelines, we can say things like "Indiana Jones and The Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was a bad movie" and "Indiana Jones and The Raiders of the Lost Ark was a good movie." There will be dissenting opinions, of course, much as we can find a person that states that lava is not hot.
This implied convention is usually in place. When someone makes a subjective statement we must ask ourselves if that opinion is likely to match a significant portion of the population. An opinion that is likely to coincide with a statistically large portion of people carries greater weight, not as much as a fact, but enough weight that "But that's just your opinion, nyah. Some people like poop," isn't an appropriate counterargument.
I'm not saying that I agree that these elements were implemented poorly. I believe that forum-goer was in a statistical minority. You cannot, however, assume that an item cannot be measured meaningfully in subjective terms.
Poop does smell bad.
I'm personally waiting for the next exciting retail expansion of City of Lawyers: This time they all pay.
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Every time some of us pointed out the detailed plans laid out in the August survey, many of you were quick to say "Hey that was just marketing folks regurgitating all our wish lists. No way all that stuff is planned!" Let's do a little review:
MA: Check.
Side switching in Going Rogue: Check.
Power customization in i16: Check.
But I'm sure we'll never see a Spy archetype or universal enhancement slots, right? If only they had put items on that survey that the devs were actually planning on implementing!
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It would be a big mistake to take that marketing survey as a roadmap for future content. I can think of at least 2 things that were on there that were either radically changed or outright cut, and a bunch of stuff that's not on there, but are being worked on right now.
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This translates to:
Everything in that list was planned at the time for reals BUT at least 2 things we changed our minds on. He just confirmed, at the time of posting, this was not just marketing, this WAS all planned to happen. Like everything that is unnanounced, though, things change. But its interesting to finally see some one directly say that all in that list was indeed on the designers' table an not just at marketing's heads.
My bed on the removed features:
A) 2.) Characters that do not wish to change sides are rewarded by becoming exemplary heroes or villains, and earning rewards not available any other way I bet this one as it would be a penalty for players that take a path just due to roleplaying reasons, something I bet the devs would not keep up once thought about for long.
B) 8.) New Spy Archetype, Power Sets & Costumes As cool as it sounds at first, a non-combat AT will be issolated from the rest of the community, there will no be a role for it on almost any team. This eventually would be an issue.
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To save other people the trouble,
<ul type="square">[*]2.) Characters that do not wish to change sides are rewarded by becoming exemplary heroes or villains, and earning rewards not available any other way - possibly different or cut[/list]
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I hope that's cut. I'd prefer that the choice of whether a character switches sides or not was done based on character-based reasons, not what rewards they might or might not get a shot at.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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B) 8.) New Spy Archetype, Power Sets & Costumes As cool as it sounds at first, a non-combat AT will be issolated from the rest of the community, there will no be a role for it on almost any team. This eventually would be an issue.
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non combat? i always appreciate an educated assumption but come on......
Kittens give Morbo gas.
QR
I &#9829; this thread.
EDIT: That's supposed to be a heart. Damn alt codes, anyway.
I just freemed myself. 
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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To save other people the trouble,
<ul type="square">[*]2.) Characters that do not wish to change sides are rewarded by becoming exemplary heroes or villains, and earning rewards not available any other way - possibly different or cut[/list]
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I hope that's cut. I'd prefer that the choice of whether a character switches sides or not was done based on character-based reasons, not what rewards they might or might not get a shot at.
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I think the idea here is that if you have a hero character, who's never going to 'go rogue' and become a villain, you could instead continue to do heroic things and eventually become an exemplary hero...at which point, you'd have access to rewards not available in other ways.
Whereas exemplary villains would just get shafted cause we hate them.
Nice.
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To save other people the trouble,
<ul type="square">[*]2.) Characters that do not wish to change sides are rewarded by becoming exemplary heroes or villains, and earning rewards not available any other way - possibly different or cut[/list]
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I hope that's cut. I'd prefer that the choice of whether a character switches sides or not was done based on character-based reasons, not what rewards they might or might not get a shot at.
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I think the idea here is that if you have a hero character, who's never going to 'go rogue' and become a villain, you could instead continue to do heroic things and eventually become an exemplary hero...at which point, you'd have access to rewards not available in other ways.
Whereas exemplary villains would just get shafted cause we hate them.
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Wait, when were you hired by ccp? First you're duping rares, now out right admitting that you're rigging things for a certain faction!
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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To save other people the trouble,
<ul type="square">[*]2.) Characters that do not wish to change sides are rewarded by becoming exemplary heroes or villains, and earning rewards not available any other way - possibly different or cut[/list]
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I hope that's cut. I'd prefer that the choice of whether a character switches sides or not was done based on character-based reasons, not what rewards they might or might not get a shot at.
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I think the idea here is that if you have a hero character, who's never going to 'go rogue' and become a villain, you could instead continue to do heroic things and eventually become an exemplary hero...at which point, you'd have access to rewards not available in other ways.
Whereas exemplary villains would just get shafted cause we hate them.
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We know.....
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Whereas exemplary villains would just get shafted cause we hate them.
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This all FINALLY clicked for me...
Going Rogue is all a ploy by the Devs to get all the Villains to switch from the Red side to the Blue side. Day of release, there will be a "bug" that will allow Villains to become Heroes, but won't allow Heroes to become Villains. Oh sure, the fix will be on the Test server quick enough... but it will be pushed back. All the while, rewards for 'Going Good' will keep looking sweeter and sweeter. Finally, once the population is about 90% / 10% (sure that won't take long), BAM! the Devs cut their losses and turn off all the Red Side content. They totally drop everything to do with CoV and become a Hero only game.
And why you might ask? So they can finally stop saying they work for CoX. Diabolical!
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To save other people the trouble,
<ul type="square">[*]2.) Characters that do not wish to change sides are rewarded by becoming exemplary heroes or villains, and earning rewards not available any other way - possibly different or cut[/list]
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I hope that's cut. I'd prefer that the choice of whether a character switches sides or not was done based on character-based reasons, not what rewards they might or might not get a shot at.
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I think the idea here is that if you have a hero character, who's never going to 'go rogue' and become a villain, you could instead continue to do heroic things and eventually become an exemplary hero...at which point, you'd have access to rewards not available in other ways.
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Yeah, I understand the idea. What I don't agree with is that it warrants in-game rewards for choosing a specific path, that the other path does not get. What does the side-switcher get that the "pureist" does not? Is it on-par with the new special rewards an exemplary character will get?
As has been said before (I believe by you!) if you give people a bonus for being in one state, people will perceive not being in that state as being penalized. The feeling here is that I would be penalized for having a character concept that involves switching sides, or for having a character concept for a Dominator that makes more sense as a hero, or a Blaster that makes more sense as a villain. That means I'm being discouraged from doing what is best for the character, concept wise.
However, if you allow us to start as Hero Dominators and Villain Blasters (or allow us to start neutral and pick one or the other and stick with it to get those exemplary bonuses), then nevermind. This solves the latter problem, and for the former problem I can at least pretend that those characters started on the other side and then switched without being less effective (or however the rewards will affect us) than those who didn't.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
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Yeah, I understand the idea. What I don't agree with is that it warrants in-game rewards for choosing a specific path, that the other path does not get. What does the side-switcher get that the "pureist" does not?
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Side switching increases flexibility and options, possibly access to badges and other rewards, and potentially allows for limitless back-and-forth. What reward ought they design for characters that don't switch, that will be equivalent to the flexibility granted by the ability to switch sides?
I see no problem with the "exemplary" idea. In fact, using your logic, I'd say something like that is almost a necessity to keep people who don't want to switch sides from feeling shafted.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Yeah, I understand the idea. What I don't agree with is that it warrants in-game rewards for choosing a specific path,
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Unless we talking just about badges. The post made it sound as if the extra slots were one of such loyalty rewards.
Not to mention it won't work. If you start purely neutral, no one starts on the hero or villain side so its meaningless.
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If this is a "We told you so!" type of thread, go ahead and be proud of the fact that you turned out correct. That really isn't anything to be proud of, though, because all it meant is that your incredibly unlikely scenario turned out to be correct.
Rationally, the likelihood of things in that survey leaving the planning stage were low. You just went with the crazy option with little to go on aside from hope and turned out correct.
That doesn't really seem like something to be proud of, to me.
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What the heck made you think any of it was unlikely?
I thought a lot of it was obviously going to be done. Some of it was even suggested by interviews before the survey.
So I'm proud I'm not a curmudgeon who poo-poos any unusual ideas I see, like much of the forum population often is, especially if you dare to post a suggestion or idea.
And the idea that blanket dismissing things that made it into an OFFICIAL MARKETING SURVEY is rational is... ludicrous.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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To save other people the trouble,
<ul type="square">[*]1.) New high level Space Station Zones (PVE, PVP, & Co-op) -possibly different or cut [*]2.) Characters that do not wish to change sides are rewarded by becoming exemplary heroes or villains, and earning rewards not available any other way - possibly different or cut [*]3.) Heroes and villains who go to the other side can also act as Double-Agents - possibly different or cut [*]4.) Character Creator 2.0 includes Powers Customization, allowing players to customize not only the character, but also the actual look of its powers - power customisation confimred, maybe, sort of [*]5.) Players undertake missions that define their character's morality and steer them in a more heroic or villainous direction[/b] - Going Rogue [*]6.) By switching sides (going from good to bad or bad to good), players can access content "on the other side" (heroes can experience villain zones and content, and villains can experience hero zones and content) - Going Rogue [*]7.) Completely new low-level player experience/zones for new characters in which new characters do not begin a hero or villain, rather become one or the other through early gameplay - Possibly Praetoria in GR, though maybe redesigned/cut [*]8.) New Spy Archetype, Power Sets & Costumes - possibly redesigned/cut [*]9.) Universal Enhancement Slots - at level 50, these enhance powers to the character, essentially bringing them to a hypothetical "Level 60" once they have earned all ten slots - possibly redesigned/cut[/list]
EDIT: Also, stuff confirmed by BaBs as possibly being worked on :
<ul type="square"> [*]Having the game emit Gamma Radiation so we can all actually get super powers.[*]Carp Melee[*]Clown AT[*]Broadsword Blast[*]City of Herring expansion[*]New 'Featureless plain' zone[*]Customisation Customisation, to let us each decide exactly how much Customisation is available to us.[/list]
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I'm going to guess that the 10 slots idea is the most likely, followed by the spy, to not be implemented.
I hate the exemplary hero or villain idea.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Every time some of us pointed out the detailed plans laid out in the August survey, many of you were quick to say "Hey that was just marketing folks regurgitating all our wish lists. No way all that stuff is planned!" Let's do a little review:
MA: Check.
Side switching in Going Rogue: Check.
Power customization in i16: Check.
But I'm sure we'll never see a Spy archetype or universal enhancement slots, right? If only they had put items on that survey that the devs were actually planning on implementing!
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It would be a big mistake to take that marketing survey as a roadmap for future content. I can think of at least 2 things that were on there that were either radically changed or outright cut, and a bunch of stuff that's not on there, but are being worked on right now.
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My guesses for the "two things" would be #2 and #9; rewards for not switching and universal slots, respectively.