Jack Emmert - 20 most influencial people in MMO's

#4? Wow, that's pretty high up there. I'd be proud if I were Jack, even if it's just one website's list.

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Hitler and Stalin were easily among the top 20 most influential men in history, but they were still the plague to end all plagues. Not that I'm comparing Jack to murderers of millions upon millions of innocent people, but the point still stands

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Wow..........over a video game!.........Some of you people seriously need to get out more often and find yourselves a life. To compare a developer of a video game to those people..........wow.

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He specificially stated that he wasn't comparing Emmert to those people. He brought up obvious examples to prove his point (that the most influential people aren't necessarily positive influences). If he had brough up obscure examples, he wouldn't have proven his point.

Personally, I fully credit Jack for CoH going live and becoming popular. In a list of 20 with such a small amount of real competition, I would expect to see his name on the list, even though he has only one real success behind him.

(Jack and friends still haven't managed to get me interested in Champions Online though.)

I'm guessing Marvel and Microsoft both ran as far away from MUO as they could when Cryptic said "Hey, check out these screenshots!"

If it makes anyone feel any better Smedley was actually higher on the list than Jack, and he presided over the destruction of SWG and the launch of EQ2 which has not lived up to the success of its predecessor. Oh, and he killed MXO.

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If it makes anyone feel any better Smedley was actually higher on the list than Jack, and he presided over the destruction of SWG and the launch of EQ2 which has not lived up to the success of its predecessor. Oh, and he killed MXO.

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Heh... "Smedley" is the name I use when I can't think of the name of the guy I'm talking about. Like "Bloggins" or something. Y'know what I'm talkin', eh? When you can't think of someone's name and you just make something up to call them?

Yah, for me it's "Smedley".

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Just as the outside world assumed Jack was a wunderkind for his successful streak of one hit, they also assume all the good parts for CoH were his idea, rather than possibly the work of a more qualified team that was working on the same project. Those of us who've been around have seen him horribly defend really bad ideas and to implement in a really bad ways some good ideas. Yes, he also enacted well and talked well about and implemented well some good ideas. But we who have seen the dark side laugh at the untarnished lionization of his career made by the outsiders looking in. Thus the immense eye-rolling by some of us at the title of 'most influential' in the MMO world.

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That's pretty much how I see it, myself. City of Heroes is a great MMO and I think a clear mould-breaker, and clearly Jack is to be thanked for going out and actually making the game as it is, challenging conventions by the skip-full. We can thank him for the game ever becoming a reality. But past that... Let's just say that his vision for the game went pretty much contrary to some of the most basic mechanical features of the game, the very stuff that made it fun to play to begin with. His "One hero equals three white minions" mantra and insistence that bosses had to be all but impossible for single players aimed to take away some of the best parts of the game, for instance, to name just a couple.

I worship Jack as a visionary and a brave soul to launch a game as different and risky as this one. I highly dislike Jack as a developer for a continuing MMO for the simple fact that he never seemed to care about how the game was actually being played and what his players were pushing for, choosing instead to insist on his own ideas about what had to happen. Frankly, given that he's essentially remaking City of Heroes HIS way now, I'm not sure if I can even still respect him as a visionary any more.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

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To a certain extent you had to be here (and by 'here' I mean actively involved in the game's forum community, at least the Dev threads) to really understand,

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I think this is the most true statement I've read regarding Jack/Statesman. Jack created a great game, he ran a great game. He made necessary changes and rolled them out with explanations that ticked off a small percentage of an already small percentage (forum participants).

If that's failure, I'll buy a bucketful, thanks.

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Top 20

It would seem that not everyone agrees he is the plague to end all plagues.

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I'm one of those people. He started City of Heroes, and I think that he was right about most of the vision he had for it. I think that people who hate him for whatever reason are either being completely unreasonable or having very selective memories of what he was really like.

When he was in charge, people here treated him pretty much like they treat Matt Miller now. He had a lot of followers, and he had a few vocal detractors screaming for his head on a platter. Of course, it makes zero difference who's in charge or what they do, there will always be such detractors. If you're in charge of a game like City of Heroes, you pretty much have to have a thick skin, do what you're going to do, and hope everything comes out okay in the end. In that respect, Jack and Matt are very similar, and as a result of both, the game is still going strong and getting better every with release.

The only huge difference is that Jack left. It's awful easy to bash someone when they're gone. Even worse, now he's the competition. There are a bunch of people here who assume that MMORPGs are a zero-sum game, that in order for CO to have subscribers, they must come from CoH. (Completely neglecting that CO will have plenty of subscribers that play both games, and probably some new subscribers who don't even know that CoH exists.)

I never agreed 100% with Jack's decisions, just as I don't agree 100% with Matt's. But he was hardly the destroyer of the game that people make him out to be. And like it or not, he was a key player in this game becoming what it is today, both bad and good.

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Agreed 100%. He certainly deserves to be in the top 20. Where on the list is debatable.

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Top 20

It would seem that not everyone agrees he is the plague to end all plagues.

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Hitler and Stalin were easily among the top 20 most influential men in history, but they were still the plague to end all plagues. Not that I'm comparing Jack to murderers of millions upon millions of innocent people, but the point still stands

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Wow..........over a video game!.........Some of you people seriously need to get out more often and find yourselves a life. To compare a developer of a video game to those people..........wow.

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And some of you need to drop the ellipses and go learn basic English comprehension, because frankly, you suck at it.

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Top 20

It would seem that not everyone agrees he is the plague to end all plagues.

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Hitler and Stalin were easily among the top 20 most influential men in history, but they were still the plague to end all plagues. Not that I'm comparing Jack to murderers of millions upon millions of innocent people, but the point still stands

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Wow..........over a video game!.........Some of you people seriously need to get out more often and find yourselves a life. To compare a developer of a video game to those people..........wow.

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And some of you need to drop the ellipses and go learn basic English comprehension, because frankly, you suck at it.

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The Shatneresque pauses notwithstanding, he's right. You compared the designer of a video game to two mass murderers and the immediately said "Not that I'm comparing them". You *did* compare them. You didn't say they were equivalent, but you did compare them.

Tacky and tasteless.

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Top 20

It would seem that not everyone agrees he is the plague to end all plagues.

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you don't have to be competent to be influential.

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Top 20

It would seem that not everyone agrees he is the plague to end all plagues.

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Hitler and Stalin were easily among the top 20 most influential men in history, but they were still the plague to end all plagues. Not that I'm comparing Jack to murderers of millions upon millions of innocent people, but the point still stands

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Wow..........over a video game!.........Some of you people seriously need to get out more often and find yourselves a life. To compare a developer of a video game to those people..........wow.

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And some of you need to drop the ellipses and go learn basic English comprehension, because frankly, you suck at it.

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The Shatneresque pauses notwithstanding, he's right. You compared the designer of a video game to two mass murderers and the immediately said "Not that I'm comparing them". You *did* compare them. You didn't say they were equivalent, but you did compare them.

Tacky and tasteless.

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You're missing the point. The point was that he was making was that "influential" means just that; he had an influence, greater so than many. It's neither good nor bad, it simply is. I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that Hitler and Stalin weren't also influential in their own right.

All he was doing was pointing out that saying someone's "influential" isn't a value judgement. It's neither good nor bad.

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I have no idea who the other 19 dudes are.

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How do you play ANY MMO and not know the name "Richard Garriott"?

@SpaceNut - My 50s, AE arcs and current projects at ParagonWiki

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Despite the fact that he couldn't bring Marvel Universe Online to market.

[/ QUOTE ] From what I understand that was hardly his fault. Didn't that deal get canceled because Microsoft(I think) wouldn't accept subscriber numbers less than WoW?

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I don't recall the specifics, but I remember reading that Microsoft pulled out because they decided Marvel wasn't a viable marketing tool for the game. Whether it was based on projected subs or development I don't know. I just recall that being a reason I read somewhere.

Why is Raph Koster still on that list? Has he done anything since SWG? Much less this year?

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I am confused at why people dislike Emmert so much. I've been playing since CoH started and I never saw anything negative about him.

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Jack Emmert made a statement that most players equate to a bold faced lie. While I do not believe that was intent, but his subsequent explainations lacked the tact required to convice people of the contrary. The statment surrounded what was probably the single greatest improvement to the game, but the manner in which it was presented left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths. Issue 5 brought GDN which basically lowered the indestructablity of every character. GDN also introduced aggro caps, there by bringing an end to map herding. These were necessary changes and they came with Jack's promise of "no more sweeping power nerfs". Just as players were accepting that GDN needed to happen, we got the Issue 6 closed beta leak regarding ED. Viewed as an additional nerf, ED was infact an improvement of the game. The fact that ED was part of closed beta and the Devs had no intentions of telling the player base until pre-launch beta really angered a lot of people. Coming of the heels of Jack Emmert's promise, it smacked of deception. His explaination of "I don't see ED as a power nerf," seemed dishonest and not the least apologetic. More importantly, Jack Emmert left City of Heroes very shortly after. Had Jack Emmert remaind active with CoH for a few more issues, his legacy would likely have ended on a much more positive note.

Honestly, the ire Jack Emmert gets is somewhat unfair. He created City of Heroes. All the foundations he laid for the game are still here. While I can honesty say I enjoy the game considerably more since Matt Miller took over, this is still Jack Emmeret's creation. Anyone who likes playing City of Heroes should give Jack Emmeret his props.

People who don't have all the "inside information" don't realize that Emmert (and, probably, some of the extant staff) had some very poor judgement. I'm sure some people here remember "Fantasy Isle" and "The Gameboy Incident"...

Influential? Sure. Under his leadership, some visionary concepts were made real. He also brought a lot of unoriginal, almost tedious, ideas to the game. But not any of it was done in a vacuum. I think that people in "leadership positions" get way too much credit. Sometimes, they also get unnecessary blame.

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People who don't have all the "inside information" don't realize that Emmert (and, probably, some of the extant staff) had some very poor judgement. I'm sure some people here remember "Fantasy Isle" and "The Gameboy Incident"...

Influential? Sure. Under his leadership, some visionary concepts were made real. He also brought a lot of unoriginal, almost tedious, ideas to the game. But not any of it was done in a vacuum. I think that people in "leadership positions" get way too much credit. Sometimes, they also get unnecessary blame.

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I made a post about the "Gameboy Incident" earlier, but I'm not sure what the Fantasy Isle thing refers to. Mind, I didn't start going to the forums regularly until shortly after Issue 1.

Raph Koster has, I think, just recently opened a virtual world called Metaplace for beta testing. He's also been a very prolific writer on virtual world, game design, and MMO-related subjects, notably including things like 'player rights' and 'virtual property.'

These are sort of pioneering topics in the field, IMO - starting to, or at least trying to break the mold, as it were, of the game's TOS effectively being a contract of adhesion (game companies have much more legal/bargaining power than players and you have to accept or you can't play) which generally outlines an unequal relationship between player and company where the game provider can more or less do whatever they want to you, including cancel your account or take away some or all of your game progress and virtual property at any time for any reason.

Ie, like with the recent farming thread, NCSoft can delete some of your characters or ban your account, without your being able to do anything about it, even though those characters and accounts represent your time and effort and thus are your virtual property. This also touches on things like RMT, microtransactions, and even discussions on taxation of MMO economies.

Raph is, by the by, mostly on the player's side of things from what I've read - that players should have real-world-like rights regarding their virtual property, like the right not to have it taken from them without explanation or appeal.

I can't believe that list was in order though, seeing how far down on it Richard Garriot is. Or even, for that matter, Gaute Godager.

As for Jack... he deserves to be on the list and to be appreciated for what he did accomplish in City of Heroes, but he also does deserve the tomatoes being thrown at him here too, often for how he accomplished those same things.

And Jack's behavior since leaving, and the behavior of the Champions Online team as regards COH, hasn't done anything to earn him any goodwill or forgiveness - quite the opposite.

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Top 20

It would seem that not everyone agrees he is the plague to end all plagues.

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Hitler and Stalin were easily among the top 20 most influential men in history, but they were still the plague to end all plagues. Not that I'm comparing Jack to murderers of millions upon millions of innocent people, but the point still stands

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Wow..........over a video game!.........Some of you people seriously need to get out more often and find yourselves a life. To compare a developer of a video game to those people..........wow.

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And some of you need to drop the ellipses and go learn basic English comprehension, because frankly, you suck at it.

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The Shatneresque pauses notwithstanding, he's right. You compared the designer of a video game to two mass murderers and the immediately said "Not that I'm comparing them". You *did* compare them. You didn't say they were equivalent, but you did compare them.

Tacky and tasteless.

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Oh go censor someone else, you politically correct zealot. I liked Jack Emmert probably more than most people. He created a great and enduring game. And yes, when I say I'm not comparing him to Hitler or Stalin, it means I'm not comparing them. I used two easily-identified examples of unquestionably influential men in history who weren't just controversial but were unquestionably evil. The point was to contest the assertion that Jack could not be the plague-to-end-all-plagues while still being influential. It was fallacious. Just like your assertion that my post was 'tacky and tasteless'.

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Why is Raph Koster still on that list? Has he done anything since SWG? Much less this year?

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He was one of the brains behind Ultima Online, I thought?

But I have much more against him than I ever had against Jack.

SWG was a fiasco from day one. I blame it ALL on Koster.

Cal2

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Top 20

It would seem that not everyone agrees he is the plague to end all plagues.

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I'm one of those people. He started City of Heroes

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Nitpick: Rick Dakan started City of Heroes.

Aha. I stand educated.

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Top 20

It would seem that not everyone agrees he is the plague to end all plagues.

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Hitler and Stalin were easily among the top 20 most influential men in history, but they were still the plague to end all plagues. Not that I'm comparing Jack to murderers of millions upon millions of innocent people, but the point still stands

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Does mentioning Hitler count as Godwin's law?

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Top 20

It would seem that not everyone agrees he is the plague to end all plagues.

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you don't have to be competent to be influential.

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Uh, yes you do.