Devs- Are you too RP-minded?
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2009-05-22 08:34 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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near-total lack of end-game content after 5 years is a perfectly legitimate gripe to make.
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LOL. I can't take anyone seriously who says something like this.
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And yet, somehow, my heart will go on.
[/ QUOTE ]NEAR! FAR! WHevER YOU ARE!
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Warning: THE SHIP SANK!!!!!
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Spoilers!
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near-total lack of end-game content after 5 years is a perfectly legitimate gripe to make.
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LOL. I can't take anyone seriously who says something like this.
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It might help if he tried playing CoX.
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near-total lack of end-game content after 5 years is a perfectly legitimate gripe to make.
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LOL. I can't take anyone seriously who says something like this.
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And yet, somehow, my heart will go on.
[/ QUOTE ]NEAR! FAR! WHevER YOU ARE!
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Warning: THE SHIP SANK!!!!!
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Spoilers!
[/ QUOTE ]LEO NOOOO!
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But the other games rely upon end-game content *because there's only a grind from 1 to cap* for those games.
THIS game is not like those. There is content from level one onwards. If you blow past it, that's YOUR loss *general you* and not the devs fault.
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I disagree. My expeience with World of Warcraft's content was very much the sam as my expeience iwth tehc onten here. it was fun, and interesting, and reasonably well written, and I enjoyed it. And once i'd done it once or twice, I never, ever wanted to see it again. A difficult and complex raid, however, took a looooot longer to get old.
Subjective? Of course. But the same logic Lightfoot uses to say that since this game is still alive the developers must be doing somethign right would also apply to the good people at blizard - and if commercial success is really going to be our metric, then they're doing it a hundred times better.
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Lord Recluse Strike Force? Statesman Task Force? Rikti Mothership Raids? Hamidon Raids? Purple IOs? The new 5th Column SF/TFs coming in Issue 15? You have played the game, right? Because alting is encouraged, the Devs have decided that creating content across all levels is better than concentrating content at the end.
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Its getting better, I grant you, but its still a paltry tithe (YES! I found an excuse to use the phrase "paltry tithe" in a sentance) compared to other MMOs.
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I was mainly adressing the hyperbolic assertion that there was absolutely no endgame. I'm perfectly content to level my 140+ characters through the game, but I'll happily admit that the endgame is anemic. I've never claimed otherwise. Anemic does not equal non-existant. Overuse of hyperbole did not strengthen the OP's argument.
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Granted.
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near-total lack of end-game content after 5 years is a perfectly legitimate gripe to make.
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LOL. I can't take anyone seriously who says something like this.
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And yet, somehow, my heart will go on.
[/ QUOTE ]NEAR! FAR! WHevER YOU ARE!
[/ QUOTE ]
Warning: THE SHIP SANK!!!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Spoilers!
[/ QUOTE ]LEO NOOOO!
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*dies laughing*
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near-total lack of end-game content after 5 years is a perfectly legitimate gripe to make.
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LOL. I can't take anyone seriously who says something like this.
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Ok.. i've been here 5 years... and i admit, i'm slow... what is the end game content? PvP... god i hope not... MA missions? We just got them... after 5 years... and frankly, the majority of stuff on it is utter crap... if you enjoy most of that stuff, your way to easy to please... seriously...
I've spent the last 5 years making alts... 26 50's to be exacit. For 2 reasons. I, i love the creations aspect of the game, and 2, once i hit 50... eh, what else is there? ReRoll... is that the end game your talking about?
And no need to take me seriously, no one ever does anyways. 
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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near-total lack of end-game content after 5 years is a perfectly legitimate gripe to make.
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LOL. I can't take anyone seriously who says something like this.
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It might help if he tried playing CoX.
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Ahh, whats a good argument that doesn't degenerate into dubious personal insults. Suffice it to say Ive been playing City of Heroes for a very long time, and actually never powerleveled a character (though to be fair, thats partly because I don't play many - if were trying to get 2-dozen alts to 50 like some people I suspet I would have to either start farming or else go mad with boredom).
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Ok.. i've been here 5 years... and i admit, i'm slow... what is the end game content?
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<ul type="square">[*]Rikti Raids[*]Hamidon Raids[*]Rikti War Zone missions[*]Statesman's Task Force[*]Lady Grey's Task Force[*]Cimerora[*]The Imperious Task Force[*]Portal Corporation Missions[*]FOUR Ouroboros Task Forces (not counting the Flashback system here)[*]FOUR Shadow Shard task forces which are often times challenging and long[*] The whole Shadow Shard itself, with four HUGE zones filled with unique monsters and amazing geography[/list]
We have no end-game content? K....
We HAVE it. Now whether you LIKE what we have or not is your own perogative. To say that we DON'T HAVE end game content is just plain silly. I'm counting hours and hours worth of content there, possibly days or month's worth.
You must also keep in mind that you've been here for X number of years. For someone new to the game, this amount of content would be overwhelming.
If you want even MORE content than that... you now have the ability to make it yourself if you don't want to wait the months it takes for the developers to make new content.
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Do I believe any of them have played the game from 1-50 as a normal player without giving in to the urge to use the power at their disposal? Nope. It gets too tedious once you get into the 30s.
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Speak for yourself. I got one character to level 50 THREE TIMES and it wasn't one bit tedious. That's right, same powerset combo and even costume, for 150 levels. And NO powerleveling or farming.
Again, speak for yourself rather than making blanket statements as if they were "facts".
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Of course he thinks it's impossible for a Dev who has access to /setlevel 50 to not use it on every character. After all, if *he* had access to such a command, he'd use it all the time.
[/ QUOTE ]The best part of this is, on their private accounts (the ones that don't have their forum ID as a global), they don't have ACCESS to those tricks. Their private accounts are exactly the same as any other player.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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I disagree. My expeience with World of Warcraft's content was very much the sam as my expeience iwth tehc onten here. it was fun, and interesting, and reasonably well written, and I enjoyed it. And once i'd done it once or twice, I never, ever wanted to see it again. A difficult and complex raid, however, took a looooot longer to get old.
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I have a slightly different take on this.
First of all, you will notice in WoW that the level 1-70 (and these days, even the 70+ zones) are all but ghost towns. You may be able to quest through it, but the game is so endgame-slanted that finding groups for instanced stuff along the way is very, very hard. 90% of the game's population and activity are taking place at level 80 now, quite different from City of Heroes.
Second, raiding can get old very fast. Been there, done that, both me and my husband stopped doing it eventually (after we had been doing it for quite a while only because we didn't want to leave the rest of the guild in a lurch).
Difficult raids are indeed a very different beast, but not necessarily in a good way. You don't mention the extensive grind that goes along with hardcore raiding, because you need the consumables, the enchantments, and the gear (and because you're on the bleeding edge of progression, only the best stuff will do). You don't mention the rigid raiding schedule imposed by most guilds to make a speedy progression possible despite all those challenging fights, usually requiring several evenings a week where you are expected to show up and schedule your RL around that. You don't mention that once you've overcome a challenging boss fight, you will farm it for weeks and weeks and weeks to come in order to get the necessary upgrades for the next tier of raid content. In short, those challenging raids are usually something like 10% actually overcoming the challenges and 90% farming activity.
Another point is that this kind of content is very expensive to create. We can safely assume that Ulduar (the latest WoW raid instance) cost millions to make. And people eat through content fast: Every raid instance that Blizzard has brought out since their first expansion was conquered in a few weeks, if not days, unless they took steps to artificially prolong its life. No game company can possibly keep up with the hunger hardcore gamers have for new content.
And yes, I understand that once you had done Katie Hannon a few times, you didn't get much more out of doing the taskforce again. On the other hand, once you had done Black Temple a few times, you were heartily sick of it, too.
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I disagree. My expeience with World of Warcraft's content was very much the sam as my expeience iwth tehc onten here. it was fun, and interesting, and reasonably well written, and I enjoyed it. And once i'd done it once or twice, I never, ever wanted to see it again. A difficult and complex raid, however, took a looooot longer to get old.
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I have a slightly different take on this.
First of all, you will notice in WoW that the level 1-70 (and these days, even the 70+ zones) are all but ghost towns. You may be able to quest through it, but the game is so endgame-slanted that finding groups for instanced stuff along the way is very, very hard. 90% of the game's population and activity are taking place at level 80 now, quite different from City of Heroes.
Second, raiding can get old very fast. Been there, done that, both me and my husband stopped doing it eventually (after we had been doing it for quite a while only because we didn't want to leave the rest of the guild in a lurch).
Difficult raids are indeed a very different beast, but not necessarily in a good way. You don't mention the extensive grind that goes along with hardcore raiding, because you need the consumables, the enchantments, and the gear (and because you're on the bleeding edge of progression, only the best stuff will do). You don't mention the rigid raiding schedule imposed by most guilds to make a speedy progression possible despite all those challenging fights, usually requiring several evenings a week where you are expected to show up and schedule your RL around that. You don't mention that once you've overcome a challenging boss fight, you will farm it for weeks and weeks and weeks to come in order to get the necessary upgrades for the next tier of raid content. In short, those challenging raids are usually something like 10% actually overcoming the challenges and 90% farming activity.
Another point is that this kind of content is very expensive to create. We can safely assume that Ulduar (the latest WoW raid instance) cost millions to make. And people eat through content fast: Every raid instance that Blizzard has brought out since their first expansion was conquered in a few weeks, if not days, unless they took steps to artificially prolong its life. No game company can possibly keep up with the hunger hardcore gamers have for new content.
And yes, I understand that once you had done Katie Hannon a few times, you didn't get much more out of doing the taskforce again. On the other hand, once you had done Black Temple a few times, you were heartily sick of it, too.
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That about sums up my experience with WoW, as well, and why I quit just before the latest expansion. In a very eloquent fashion, no less, and with far less emotional diatribe then I normally go into such an explanation.
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Before AE came out there were at least two warnings not to use it as farm grounds. They were ignored.
When AE came out the patch notes and tutorial said not to farm it. This was ignored.
The Devs went "If you can't be trusted not to throw the ball in the house you don't get any balls."
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to be fair most people didn't actually read any of that
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Yes but the information was there, it is their own fault if they couldn't be bothered to read it.
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Its too bad there isn't a Vogon head for your avatar.
What You couldn't get to alpha centauri to read the plans about blowing up your planet ? Well if you can't be bothered to get to the nearest star system its hardly anybody elses problem.
I didn't read through the 10 pages of replies, so someone may have said this already...
The genre of this game is a MMORPG. Wanna guess what the RPG part stands for?
Go ahead, take a guess.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Times up.
The answer is Role Playing Game!!!
Now I'm not a hardcore RPer, but I generally try to keep the RP aspect of the game in mind. I don't just play a min/maxed powerset, I play a character. He has likes/dislikes, favorite powers, and usually a preferred style of combat. That power everybody skips because it's "useless", I probably have it and have found creative ways to make it quite useful.
Gonna cut myself off here before I get off on a rant about these games having their roots in "classic" pen & paper rpgs like D&D and stuff.
**wanders off grumbling to himself**
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I disagree. My expeience with World of Warcraft's content was very much the sam as my expeience iwth tehc onten here. it was fun, and interesting, and reasonably well written, and I enjoyed it. And once i'd done it once or twice, I never, ever wanted to see it again. A difficult and complex raid, however, took a looooot longer to get old.
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I have a slightly different take on this.
First of all, you will notice in WoW that the level 1-70 (and these days, even the 70+ zones) are all but ghost towns. You may be able to quest through it, but the game is so endgame-slanted that finding groups for instanced stuff along the way is very, very hard. 90% of the game's population and activity are taking place at level 80 now, quite different from City of Heroes.
Second, raiding can get old very fast. Been there, done that, both me and my husband stopped doing it eventually (after we had been doing it for quite a while only because we didn't want to leave the rest of the guild in a lurch).
Difficult raids are indeed a very different beast, but not necessarily in a good way. You don't mention the extensive grind that goes along with hardcore raiding, because you need the consumables, the enchantments, and the gear (and because you're on the bleeding edge of progression, only the best stuff will do). You don't mention the rigid raiding schedule imposed by most guilds to make a speedy progression possible despite all those challenging fights, usually requiring several evenings a week where you are expected to show up and schedule your RL around that. You don't mention that once you've overcome a challenging boss fight, you will farm it for weeks and weeks and weeks to come in order to get the necessary upgrades for the next tier of raid content. In short, those challenging raids are usually something like 10% actually overcoming the challenges and 90% farming activity.
Another point is that this kind of content is very expensive to create. We can safely assume that Ulduar (the latest WoW raid instance) cost millions to make. And people eat through content fast: Every raid instance that Blizzard has brought out since their first expansion was conquered in a few weeks, if not days, unless they took steps to artificially prolong its life. No game company can possibly keep up with the hunger hardcore gamers have for new content.
And yes, I understand that once you had done Katie Hannon a few times, you didn't get much more out of doing the taskforce again. On the other hand, once you had done Black Temple a few times, you were heartily sick of it, too.
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This is why I don't take anyone seriously who claims that WoW is less grindy than COH. WoW is one of the most grindy games out there. Maybe not the leveling but the end game definitely is. Don't forget to also include that after doing all of that within a year or two a new expansion will come out making all that gear worthless. You'll then have to grind ten more levels and then start the above all over again.
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I didn't read through the 10 pages of replies, so someone may have said this already...
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Yes, several times. But hey, look at the bright side, at least you didn't start a new thread about it! 
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I know that this is a troll thread, but one thing that piqued my curiosity was when I came to the boilerplate "I don't actually mean any harm, even if I sound like it" disclaimer:
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This isn't a request to keep farming in the game or to nerf RP.
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How the heck does one nerf roleplaying even if one wanted to? It just doesn't make any sense conceptually. Has the meaning of the term changed completely with me being unaware of it?
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Well the game could charge character upkeep for a start. Which would be a nice nerf to RPERS that hang around emoting or that slow down the game with keybound speaches about their high principles or low ambitions.
Its really easy to come up with more, maybe I should put them in the Suggestions and Ideas thread.
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<QR>
This game is marketed and advertised as a Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.
That, in itself, should be 'nuff said, but allow me to expand on the thought. Do people in Call of Duty complain about how the devs are too shooter-friendly? Does anyone call up Bud Selig and complain that baseball is too sports-friendly? Have you ever heard of someone complaining at a Texas Hold'em tournament that the game is way too card-friendly?
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Well then perhaps everyone who doesn't play this as a RPG should just be asked to take their custom elsewhere.
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Before AE came out there were at least two warnings not to use it as farm grounds. They were ignored.
When AE came out the patch notes and tutorial said not to farm it. This was ignored.
The Devs went "If you can't be trusted not to throw the ball in the house you don't get any balls."
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to be fair most people didn't actually read any of that
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Yes but the information was there, it is their own fault if they couldn't be bothered to read it.
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Its too bad there isn't a Vogon head for your avatar.
What You couldn't get to alpha centauri to read the plans about blowing up your planet ? Well if you can't be bothered to get to the nearest star system its hardly anybody elses problem.
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I dare you to make less sense.
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
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Ok.. i've been here 5 years... and i admit, i'm slow... what is the end game content?
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<ul type="square">[*]Rikti Raids[*]Hamidon Raids[*]Rikti War Zone missions[*]Statesman's Task Force[*]Lady Grey's Task Force[*]Cimerora[*]The Imperious Task Force[*]Portal Corporation Missions[*]FOUR Ouroboros Task Forces (not counting the Flashback system here)[*]FOUR Shadow Shard task forces which are often times challenging and long[*] The whole Shadow Shard itself, with four HUGE zones filled with unique monsters and amazing geography[/list]
We have no end-game content? K....
We HAVE it. Now whether you LIKE what we have or not is your own perogative. To say that we DON'T HAVE end game content is just plain silly. I'm counting hours and hours worth of content there, possibly days or month's worth.
You must also keep in mind that you've been here for X number of years. For someone new to the game, this amount of content would be overwhelming.
If you want even MORE content than that... you now have the ability to make it yourself if you don't want to wait the months it takes for the developers to make new content.
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I'm sure I'm braking a flamewar rule somewhere, but, you are infact correct, and I was wrong. Them things are "end game" content. I stand corrected, and undestand where your coming from.
Personally, it's an inferore, more limited "end game" content IMO (need to stress that) then others i've played, but it's there none the less. I guess i just don't spend enought time their cause most of that stuff bores me. AS for MA... eh, a few of the dev's chocies are good, but, the moutine of crap you have to thread through to find the good stuff is off putting IMO.
Except the Shadow Shard... which i love, but can't get people to do anything in there with me... and it's way underveloped... but that's a different issue.
Carry on.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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My version also covers the people who may or may not have been hit with punishment by mistake. It's like when dad tries to hit a kid while driving and hits everyone in the back seat
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And veers the car into oncoming traffic.
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to be fair most people didn't actually read any of that
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Who's fault is it if they didnt read it thats the funniest thing I have ever heard. It was posted in game and on forums. The warnings were isssued, and people continued. The game isn't catering to RPer's its catering to the majority and getting people to run the missions and run different content. It's moving away from farming. Granted You cannot remove farming altogether. As you nerf one and there will always be another. As well, Farmers are apart of the community.
Some people find comfort and control in repetition, while others abhor it. Alot of your more anti-social players are badgers. The CoH community is very Diverse. Many people play it for various reason. Costumes, Farms, TF's, Just flying around and chatting with friends etc. I am just saddend that AE was so exploited that we have to lose rewards gained because the warnings were ignored by a few.
Rp minded? dont think so.
But there is a fine line between controlling ones "paid to play" privileges (The customers) and moving away from farming etc... ... ... I just hope this is the community consensus and not just someone mad because their roll out didnt pan out the way they thought it should.
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My thought was more "how is ignoring warnings considered a vindication for doing something dumb?"
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there's a difference between glazing over the safety bit in an owner's manual and sticking your tongue into woodchipper after being told it will do terrible things to your face
i'm of the opinion that this falls into the former category since every warning was either out of the way or accompanied by other text that no one really wanted to read
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Ignorance of the law is not a legal excuse for breaking the law.
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I get a kick out of the stunningly willful suspension of common sense exhibited by many of the recent posters in these threads too.
For example, how ridiculous is someone saying 'they left it in the game and I may have abused it but its their fault!'.
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LOL I get a kick out of people who trot out "ignorance of the law is no excuse"
When the law is "You know it when you see it"
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Lord Recluse Strike Force? Statesman Task Force? Rikti Mothership Raids? Hamidon Raids? Purple IOs? The new 5th Column SF/TFs coming in Issue 15? You have played the game, right? Because alting is encouraged, the Devs have decided that creating content across all levels is better than concentrating content at the end.
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Its getting better, I grant you, but its still a paltry tithe (YES! I found an excuse to use the phrase "paltry tithe" in a sentance) compared to other MMOs.
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I was mainly adressing the hyperbolic assertion that there was absolutely no endgame. I'm perfectly content to level my 140+ characters through the game, but I'll happily admit that the endgame is anemic. I've never claimed otherwise. Anemic does not equal non-existant. Overuse of hyperbole did not strengthen the OP's argument.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)