Devs- Are you too RP-minded?
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2009-05-22 08:34 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Naturally, but I'm glad our CS isn't as bad...
Heh, just realized a WoW Comparison...
Getting banned in WoW for buying a duped item and not knowing it was duped is about equal to having your level pact character locked when you didn't know what your partner was doing.
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Naturally, but I'm glad our CS isn't as bad...
Heh, just realized a WoW Comparison...
Getting banned in WoW for buying a duped item and not knowing it was duped is about equal to having your level pact character locked when you didn't know what your partner was doing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats why I don't play WoW.
Now here's a fun question...if we did have the player base of say...Final Fantasy 11 (750k last I saw around a year ago I think...). Would the Devs be more harsh w/ bannings cause they can afford to? Remember seeing someone post a report that showed 50k accounts have been banned in that game due to farming.
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You're equating farming for badges with farming for XP and loot, which is not quite the same thing.
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it's exactly the same thing.
Repetitive behavior in the pursuit of in-game rewards.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Now here's a fun question...if we did have the player base of say...Final Fantasy 11 (750k last I saw around a year ago I think...). Would the Devs be more harsh w/ bannings cause they can afford to? Remember seeing someone post a report that showed 50k accounts have been banned in that game due to farming.
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Good Q. Beats me, I would certainly lean that way though just given what has happened recently.
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But the Rikti farms were a different thing. Farming for XP/inf/drops isn't the same as farming for badges. Can't equate the two.
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yes you can.
give badgers an enemy that counts x2 or x5 on their progress bar and watch them swarm it.
farming = repetitive behavior in pursuit of rewards.
badging = repetitive behavior in pursuit of rewards.
it's the exact same behavior engaged in for the exact same reasons.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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You're equating farming for badges with farming for XP and loot, which is not quite the same thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
it's exactly the same thing.
Repetitive behavior in the pursuit of in-game rewards.
[/ QUOTE ]
True but with the exception of accolades badges don't increase your ability to earn more in game rewards. Whereas drops and such add to your productive capital.
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Well, speaking as an RPer, farmers are not the only ones with multiple accounts. I have three. Also, I am an MMO veteran, not just a CoH veteran. Why is all this important, I'll get to that.
Every MMO I have ever played has a Eula and within that is always a clause dedicated to what should happen to a player if they use an exploit repeatedly instead of reporting it and letting it be. When developers get wind of these exploits they use data mining to look at the experience/monetary curve compared to what it looks like through the players that abuse the exploit. They then caution the player base that they will implement a "fix" or, as most players call it, a "nerf."
Also stated, or restated in most cases, is the policy to make adjustments to characters/accounts that continue to utilize said exploit since it is now found to be an exploit. The most recent example is not in CoH but WoW where people were abusing an error in programming where they could use two builds at the same time. Players went up in arms stating the "developers put it in the game therefore...yada yada yada." But that team did explain it was an exploit and acted quickly to remedy the situation.
My point is, exploits "are" exploits and "every" MMO development team act upon issues that allow players to gain experience and monetary compensation beyond the normal rate.
Do I think the badges should be removed? No. I agree they should be made easier to obtain. Will I give up my three accounts? No. I enjoy this game and the future that has been presented to me.
The solution to MA not being used as a farming tool is to simply go back to how you were doing it before, but do not be surprised if the developers change certain missions to include a timer once they discover that is the one being used. And if you think, for one minute, certain "up coming" hero MMO's won't do the same you are mistaken.
As my final point, I am an RPer. I play to progress my characters and their stories. I do not post on the forums often because I see a lot of hate whenever changes are made. Sometimes these posts are by RMTers, Trollers, even members of another development team trying to fan the flames. It happens and I'd rather not take part in the silly flame wars because I know half of the posts are not genuinely thought out, but merely put in place by people desperately wanting attention by crying "doom."
However, when I saw this post that slams RPers, the player base that is the least vocal on these forums (aside from the RP section and possibly Virtue) I finally decided to use my voice. I am a roleplayer (and a writer) and (like the books I write) enjoy watching my characters grow. Exploits are like turning to the last page of my books to see the ending. Yes, you know where everything is going, but what about the journey that you missed?
I have less than a dozen 50s (both red and blue) and I moved them there through normal casual gameplay over the last five years. When things get boring, same mission over and over climbing to 50, I use the character's story to liven things up. Whether its in my head or being the only one in the group RPing, I still manage to find a way to make the game interesting. After all, creating new characters, and new stories to go with them, is one of the main draws of this game.
-Gets off her soapbox-
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"Slams RPers"? What part exactly slammed RPers? Well whatever you imagined was slamming, why don't you pretend it didn't happen? RPers are good at pretend right?
I didn't say RP should be gone and I didn't degrade RPers. I pointed out that there are basically two minds in this game, the players and the RPers. And the devs seem to be catering their decisions and releases more to RPers than players over the past year or so. I was calling for more of a balance. While RPers are an important aspect of this game, they are the MINORITY. While many RPers may not post in the forums, the number of regular players that don't post is even larger.
I don't see the problem with things that allow others to get more enjoyment out of the game if it is not a genuine detriment to others. And I don't consider market prices to be so. I'm sorry if rising costs mean you have to leave Pocket D a little more often, but you can't expect the same reward for less work.
This game is grindy. And people say WoW is moreso. But the thing with WoW is you got new spells EVERY level, not to mention new weapons and armor. I had something to look forward to every time I dinged. New stuff to play around with. In CoX, you get one new power ever 2-3 levels. At the upper levels this is SUCH a grind. This totally effects the mentality of leveling. Getting enhancement slots doesn't excite me. Playing away for 3 levels with my only reward at the end of each being 3 circles bores me more than not. So I can't blame people for wanting to get past that as quickly as possible. And the end-game grind in WoW is much more enjoyable when you have an arsenal of abilities at your command compared to the mid-game grind of CoX and 3-4 active attack powers.
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Two things....
1) What I don't understand is why you think the game caters to RPers more than anyone else. I think you're mistaking their decision to stay within a certain genre (which all games do) with overattention to roleplayers.
2) Any game is grindy if you let it be that way. You compare it to WoW that gives you new stuff every level. It sounds nice. It's different than CoX, that's for sure. But is "different" automatically worse? My level 1 power is just as good when I'm level 50 as it was when I was level 1. Even better, actually! If I remember WoW correctly, you get new abilities at each level because old ones become obsolete. That's fine though. Each game has their own mechanism. You like getting new things every level, and you like the levels to come quickly. There's nothing wrong with that. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with how CoX does it, as it's just different. The "grind" comes from forcing yourself to engage in repetitive behavior for a perceived reward. What makes it especially grindy is that the reward in this case (a new level) is like a carrot on a stick. As soon as you get a new level, the next one is still waiting, so you never get fulfilled until you hit 50 when there's no new levels. That can be incredibly grindy if what you're doing is trying to get those levels and powers. It's also easily fixed in that you can just choose not to worry about new levels and new powers, and instead just play for fun. New levels and powers is inevitable. You don't need to "grind" to get them as just playing and having fun will yield the same results. So you can either:
A) concentrate on getting experience so you can get another level and have potentially less of a fun time; or
B) concentrate on having a good time and let the levels come naturally (which they'll do anyway).
Grinding really is an unnecessary choice a player makes. Oh, and when I say "concentrate on having a good time", I do not necessarily mean "roleplay". I mean whatever action is fun for you.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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You're equating farming for badges with farming for XP and loot, which is not quite the same thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
it's exactly the same thing.
Repetitive behavior in the pursuit of in-game rewards.
[/ QUOTE ]
True but with the exception of accolades badges don't increase your ability to earn more in game rewards. Whereas drops and such add to your productive capital.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I agree it's all repetitive behavior in pursuit of in-game rewards. That's quite right. But it's not the same kind of reward. That's the difference.
So...most folks gunning for fast XP and stuff don't care about badges. And lot of the badge crowd don't care about the other rewards. Yeah, both kinds of players are farming.
But I ain't heard folks screaming about badge missions overwhelming story stuff in the search list.
@Acyl
VIRTUE
Blue: Realpolitik, Leading Lady, Glass Lass, Superball, Alec Kazam
Red: Battery Acid, Obsolete, Bugfix
Everyone saying badge farming and XP farming are the same, you're ridiculously wrong and you know it. Badges are completely cosmetic and serve no gameplay purpose, giving no unfair advantage over non-farmers. XP is of course the total opposite.
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Everyone saying badge farming and XP farming are the same, you're ridiculously wrong and you know it. Badges are completely cosmetic and serve no gameplay purpose, giving no unfair advantage over non-farmers. XP is of course the total opposite.
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There's no "advantage" to having alot of XP or IOs or whatever either. Unless, I suppose, you PvP.
What your characters have doesn't affect my gameplay one bit, whether it's a badge, or a level, or a purple IO.
Farming is farming. It's cute that some people think it's not farming because they do it, but reality disagrees.
Rewards are rewards. A badge is a reward that some people pursue obsessively. No different from wealth or xp or any other gameplay goal.
People always whine about farmers causing nerfs.
Well, badgers got MA nerfed.
Seems like the devs realize badgers can be farmers too.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Well, speaking as an RPer, farmers are not the only ones with multiple accounts. I have three. Also, I am an MMO veteran, not just a CoH veteran. Why is all this important, I'll get to that.
Every MMO I have ever played has a Eula and within that is always a clause dedicated to what should happen to a player if they use an exploit repeatedly instead of reporting it and letting it be. When developers get wind of these exploits they use data mining to look at the experience/monetary curve compared to what it looks like through the players that abuse the exploit. They then caution the player base that they will implement a "fix" or, as most players call it, a "nerf."
Also stated, or restated in most cases, is the policy to make adjustments to characters/accounts that continue to utilize said exploit since it is now found to be an exploit. The most recent example is not in CoH but WoW where people were abusing an error in programming where they could use two builds at the same time. Players went up in arms stating the "developers put it in the game therefore...yada yada yada." But that team did explain it was an exploit and acted quickly to remedy the situation.
My point is, exploits "are" exploits and "every" MMO development team act upon issues that allow players to gain experience and monetary compensation beyond the normal rate.
Do I think the badges should be removed? No. I agree they should be made easier to obtain. Will I give up my three accounts? No. I enjoy this game and the future that has been presented to me.
The solution to MA not being used as a farming tool is to simply go back to how you were doing it before, but do not be surprised if the developers change certain missions to include a timer once they discover that is the one being used. And if you think, for one minute, certain "up coming" hero MMO's won't do the same you are mistaken.
As my final point, I am an RPer. I play to progress my characters and their stories. I do not post on the forums often because I see a lot of hate whenever changes are made. Sometimes these posts are by RMTers, Trollers, even members of another development team trying to fan the flames. It happens and I'd rather not take part in the silly flame wars because I know half of the posts are not genuinely thought out, but merely put in place by people desperately wanting attention by crying "doom."
However, when I saw this post that slams RPers, the player base that is the least vocal on these forums (aside from the RP section and possibly Virtue) I finally decided to use my voice. I am a roleplayer (and a writer) and (like the books I write) enjoy watching my characters grow. Exploits are like turning to the last page of my books to see the ending. Yes, you know where everything is going, but what about the journey that you missed?
I have less than a dozen 50s (both red and blue) and I moved them there through normal casual gameplay over the last five years. When things get boring, same mission over and over climbing to 50, I use the character's story to liven things up. Whether its in my head or being the only one in the group RPing, I still manage to find a way to make the game interesting. After all, creating new characters, and new stories to go with them, is one of the main draws of this game.
-Gets off her soapbox-
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"Slams RPers"? What part exactly slammed RPers? Well whatever you imagined was slamming, why don't you pretend it didn't happen? RPers are good at pretend right?
I didn't say RP should be gone and I didn't degrade RPers. I pointed out that there are basically two minds in this game, the players and the RPers. And the devs seem to be catering their decisions and releases more to RPers than players over the past year or so. I was calling for more of a balance. While RPers are an important aspect of this game, they are the MINORITY. While many RPers may not post in the forums, the number of regular players that don't post is even larger.
I don't see the problem with things that allow others to get more enjoyment out of the game if it is not a genuine detriment to others. And I don't consider market prices to be so. I'm sorry if rising costs mean you have to leave Pocket D a little more often, but you can't expect the same reward for less work.
This game is grindy. And people say WoW is moreso. But the thing with WoW is you got new spells EVERY level, not to mention new weapons and armor. I had something to look forward to every time I dinged. New stuff to play around with. In CoX, you get one new power ever 2-3 levels. At the upper levels this is SUCH a grind. This totally effects the mentality of leveling. Getting enhancement slots doesn't excite me. Playing away for 3 levels with my only reward at the end of each being 3 circles bores me more than not. So I can't blame people for wanting to get past that as quickly as possible. And the end-game grind in WoW is much more enjoyable when you have an arsenal of abilities at your command compared to the mid-game grind of CoX and 3-4 active attack powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Two things....
1) What I don't understand is why you think the game caters to RPers more than anyone else. I think you're mistaking their decision to stay within a certain genre (which all games do) with overattention to roleplayers.
2) Any game is grindy if you let it be that way. You compare it to WoW that gives you new stuff every level. It sounds nice. It's different than CoX, that's for sure. But is "different" automatically worse? My level 1 power is just as good when I'm level 50 as it was when I was level 1. Even better, actually! If I remember WoW correctly, you get new abilities at each level because old ones become obsolete. That's fine though. Each game has their own mechanism. You like getting new things every level, and you like the levels to come quickly. There's nothing wrong with that. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with how CoX does it, as it's just different. The "grind" comes from forcing yourself to engage in repetitive behavior for a perceived reward. What makes it especially grindy is that the reward in this case (a new level) is like a carrot on a stick. As soon as you get a new level, the next one is still waiting, so you never get fulfilled until you hit 50 when there's no new levels. That can be incredibly grindy if what you're doing is trying to get those levels and powers. It's also easily fixed in that you can just choose not to worry about new levels and new powers, and instead just play for fun. New levels and powers is inevitable. You don't need to "grind" to get them as just playing and having fun will yield the same results. So you can either:
A) concentrate on getting experience so you can get another level and have potentially less of a fun time; or
B) concentrate on having a good time and let the levels come naturally (which they'll do anyway).
Grinding really is an unnecessary choice a player makes. Oh, and when I say "concentrate on having a good time", I do not necessarily mean "roleplay". I mean whatever action is fun for you.
[/ QUOTE ]It's a bit misleading anyways since you only get new skills every other level and a lot of the time it's just an upgrade in dammage or effect of your old skill. I hardly consider picking up backhand 3 and knee kick 4 getting new skills.
If the Devs were RP-minded (at all), we'd have more mission goals then we do. We'd have conditional logic in every missions and ways for a team to actually have dialog with enemies before (or even instead of) fighting those enemies.
In my opinion, You sir, fail to understand what RP is all about!
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Everyone saying badge farming and XP farming are the same, you're ridiculously wrong and you know it. Badges are completely cosmetic and serve no gameplay purpose, giving no unfair advantage over non-farmers. XP is of course the total opposite.
[/ QUOTE ] The intent of the player is the same though.
Flooding AE with badge missions is just as annoying as flooding it with farm missions.
This thread is making me feel all kinds of nostalgic. I remember when my first Hero got to 50, and he expended all the content that was available at the time. He ended up retiring from the Hero business to become a farmer.
A Kora fruit farmer.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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So...most folks gunning for fast XP and stuff don't care about badges. And lot of the badge crowd don't care about the other rewards.
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How do you know this? Is this something off the top of your head? Because it looks like it is....
I care a great deal about badges and about xp. Its far from an either/or type of thing. This is just your opinion and completely unindicative of the mindsets of the majority of a plyerbase that is 140,000 or so strong.
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This thread is making me feel all kinds of nostalgic. I remember when my first Hero got to 50, and he expended all the content that was available at the time. He ended up retiring from the Hero business to become a farmer.
A Kora fruit farmer.
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My first level 50, an Ill / Emp Controller, finished out every possible contact, even going so far as to fill out every bar for all the infinite mission contacts, and ended her days as a Kora Fruit farmer.
When I moved on and made another character, she became forgotten, only brought out of the closet to do special events and once in a life time badges.
Then one day, when MA came out and I was feeling nostalgic, I logged into her. And I thought, "Why don't I do my Kora Fruit mission, once and for all?" So I selected it, and was surprised to find it was in Galaxy. "Well that can't be right", I said, and went to investigate the door. It turned out to be a warehouse, and upon entering, I was in a Shadow Shard cave filled with Rularuu minions and Kora Fruit!
That's right, I farmed so much Kora Fruit, I opened a plantation in Galaxy City.
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Well, speaking as an RPer, farmers are not the only ones with multiple accounts. I have three. Also, I am an MMO veteran, not just a CoH veteran. Why is all this important, I'll get to that.
Every MMO I have ever played has a Eula and within that is always a clause dedicated to what should happen to a player if they use an exploit repeatedly instead of reporting it and letting it be. When developers get wind of these exploits they use data mining to look at the experience/monetary curve compared to what it looks like through the players that abuse the exploit. They then caution the player base that they will implement a "fix" or, as most players call it, a "nerf."
Also stated, or restated in most cases, is the policy to make adjustments to characters/accounts that continue to utilize said exploit since it is now found to be an exploit. The most recent example is not in CoH but WoW where people were abusing an error in programming where they could use two builds at the same time. Players went up in arms stating the "developers put it in the game therefore...yada yada yada." But that team did explain it was an exploit and acted quickly to remedy the situation.
My point is, exploits "are" exploits and "every" MMO development team act upon issues that allow players to gain experience and monetary compensation beyond the normal rate.
Do I think the badges should be removed? No. I agree they should be made easier to obtain. Will I give up my three accounts? No. I enjoy this game and the future that has been presented to me.
The solution to MA not being used as a farming tool is to simply go back to how you were doing it before, but do not be surprised if the developers change certain missions to include a timer once they discover that is the one being used. And if you think, for one minute, certain "up coming" hero MMO's won't do the same you are mistaken.
As my final point, I am an RPer. I play to progress my characters and their stories. I do not post on the forums often because I see a lot of hate whenever changes are made. Sometimes these posts are by RMTers, Trollers, even members of another development team trying to fan the flames. It happens and I'd rather not take part in the silly flame wars because I know half of the posts are not genuinely thought out, but merely put in place by people desperately wanting attention by crying "doom."
However, when I saw this post that slams RPers, the player base that is the least vocal on these forums (aside from the RP section and possibly Virtue) I finally decided to use my voice. I am a roleplayer (and a writer) and (like the books I write) enjoy watching my characters grow. Exploits are like turning to the last page of my books to see the ending. Yes, you know where everything is going, but what about the journey that you missed?
I have less than a dozen 50s (both red and blue) and I moved them there through normal casual gameplay over the last five years. When things get boring, same mission over and over climbing to 50, I use the character's story to liven things up. Whether its in my head or being the only one in the group RPing, I still manage to find a way to make the game interesting. After all, creating new characters, and new stories to go with them, is one of the main draws of this game.
-Gets off her soapbox-
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Great post, but when I saw this comment:
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the player base that is the least vocal on these forums (aside from the RP section and possibly Virtue) I finally decided to use my voice.
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I literally laughed my butt off.
Thanks a lot. Now I have no butt.
"The One"
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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we're getting off light imo, bad is bad of course, but our punishment is light in contrast to other MMOs...
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COX doesn't have the playerbase to be as high handed as others.