Devs- Are you too RP-minded?
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2009-05-22 08:34 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Brannigan's Law is like Brannigan's love, hard and fast.
This farmer vs non-farmer topic will never end will it? Through out the dozens of MMOs during the past decade, this topic is just rehashed over and over again for what? It's really quite simple, both sides want to do things their way because the majority of us are *selfish* at the end of the day. Don't bother denying it. Don't bother getting indignant. The truth is the truth, simple as that.
Farmers farm because they want to advance in the game as quickly as possible. The fastest way to do that is to use the most efficient method as allowable by the game. Farmers also farm because they want to get *loot* for their characters. To them, building up their characters is the best way to maximize their enjoyment of the game (not to mention the monthly fee they pay to play). Low level content to farmers is just like a minor speed bump. Things don't actually get interesting until you're high level and decked out in gear. Chalk it up to the competitiveness mentality that has always been a part of human pscychology. You could even blame it on the instant gratification culture which we've became immersed in these days.
Farm haters (or some RPers) on the other hand want to take their time. They want to level leisurely while soaking up all of the scenery and read every story. They resent the farmers for making it hard to find a group that wants to play the content they enjoy. They also resent farmers for driving up the prices in the marketplace to the point that they almost can't afford it. Many of them also seem to share the mentality that what they want is what's good for the game in the long run even though that's a highly debatable topic not just restricted to CoX but the whole MMO genre as a whole. Call it the holier than though mentality if you will.
To me, this argument will never be settled. It's been around since day 1 of the whole MMO genre. The mother of all grinding/farming/camping Everquest is still alive and kicking after 9 years despite all the doomsayers claims to the contrary. MMOs will always have farming. That's not a choice, that's a reality without any alternatives. Many games have tried to curb farming, all have failed. Farmers will always have more money, more max level characters, more top end gears and so on. Why be so concerned with what other people have? Not everyone is created equal. Not everyone will have the same wealth or talent, in life and in a MMO. If being a casual player or RPer is about enjoying the content at a lesiurely pace, what difference does it make if you can't afford a certain recipe? What difference does it make if you aren't leveling as fast as others? This game is already quite forgiving when it comes to difficulty. Not being able to afford the best IOs is of little consequence when you're running things on villain or malicious. And please refrain from absurd claims such as "farming makes bad players". That type of comments only shows that some people have too much confidence in their "skills". Frankly, in terms of strategy, tactics and character development, CoX is actually a rather simple game when compared to some other MMOs. You hardly need to level a character 1-50 using the traditional method just to be proficient with it.
The bottom line is, no one is entitled to have a market where they can buy all the goods they need for their characters. No one is *entitled* to be able to find a group at any time of their choosing, doing content of their choice. No one is entitled to have a certain feature of a game to be tailored to suit their needs. For any farmer or anti-farmer claim otherwise is just selfish. Case closed.
A decent ramble, but the issue is, the game is on the RPers' side. This game focuses on the journery from 1-50 rather than endgame content, and even in that endgame content there's few raids and no race to get the best gear and loot. People trying to play this game like it's Everquest are going to end up disappointed.
From the very beginning, the devs have tried to avoid the Everquest mentality, of forcing players to grind and farm to get to the level cap ASAP, to get the best gear in order to be accepted on teams, to compete for random drops. That's one of the reasons they didn't release the real numbers at first- remember, this game came out before WoW, which showed that a MMO doesn't necessarily have to be quite like that, but the devs didn't want to take chances.
The game's meant to be simple, casual, and focused on fun and community. Farming and tweaking is not only discouraged by game mechanics, but by the fact there's very little point to it- a purpled out character isn't really going to have that much a different experience from one with SOs.
That said, the whole issue was never about this kind of farming. It was about an exploit that was fixed. There's nothing more to it than that.
I don't see how leveling quickly can equate to being disappointed. For me personally, one of the signature points of this game was the fact that you can try out a multitude of character types (different powers, etc) within a relatively short period of time. I suspect that that's what drew a lot of other people to this game as well. I've played a multitude of MMOs before CoX (Ultima Online, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, Final Fantasy XI, Dungeons & Dragons Online, WoW etc) and in all those games (except DDO) it was hard to achieve that same diversity of characters. Not without putting in an ungodly amount of time power leveling at least. In essence, getting a character to level cap, equipping him, and finding out his maximum potential is entertaining to me. Once that's done, I can then move on another character with different flavor (and costume). It certainly isn't disappointing.
In my roughly 2 years of playing CoX, I have 13 level 50's, all of which were leveled through a combination of standard grinding (levels 1-40) and farming (levels 40-50). From my perspective, I can actually say that CoX is more farm and power level friendly than some of the other MMOs I've played. One reason is the mentor system in relation to experience gain. Second reason is the fact that the game itself is relatively easy which means a team of 2 to 4 characters can clear a mission meant for 8, resulting in a bigger individual share of rewards. The final reason (and possibly the main one) is the simplicity behind the crafting/gear system. Unlike most other games, CoX does not require you to spend hours upon hours farming for no drop crafting ingridients or gears. You can't just buy it from other players, you had to farm/camp/raid in order to acquire high end gears for your characters. Back to CoX, the only thing standing between you and the best equipment available is cold hard cash. The best and fastest way to acquire that wealth is the tried and true method known as farming.
Anyways, I guess this is all a difference in perspective.
Well if you consider any play from 1-40 outside of farming 'grinding', I have to agree we have a difference in perspective.
Of course it is, anything would be after a couple trips through.
MisterPiggins!
Comics Shaven Forums
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This farmer vs non-farmer topic will never end will it?
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If this is the kind of thread this is, should it go in the official thread, then?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Of course it is, anything would be after a couple trips through.
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For you maybe. After six times through and a lot more spread through the levels, it's not a grind at all for me.
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Yes but the information was there, it is their own fault if they couldn't be bothered to read it.
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it doesn't matter if they read it or not.
Post all the "don't eat people" signs you want on the Savannah, lions will still do it- that's their nature.
Players will find efficient reward paths.
If developers don't want them to, it must be coded into the game.
Asking doesn't work, period. It never has, it never will.
Their release of AE was like throwing a deer into the lion cage and then having a screaming fit when it got eaten.
Gamers acting like gamers is predictable and understandable.
All the fault here lies with the devs, the alleged 'adults' who threw a huge fit when their paying customers didn't use a toy they way they wanted them to.
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Why is this thread so long when this was posted on the first page? Giving people the means for an easy path then expecting them not to use it 'because they say so' seriously doesn't understand their market.
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More exploitable than Battle Maiden, yes.
That's the point though - exploits *break the game*. They give an unfair advantage in whatever form (influence to spend on io's, badge accolades, whatever) to people who do them, above those who choose not to.
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Having 20 things aggroed to my tank as my team took them out was an exploit?
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No, having tanks *herd the entire Brickstown map of 5th into a dumpster* WAS.
Having watched that, been told as an emp/dark defender "we don't need you, go away" or merely, "don't do anything, just stand there, I'll take care of this" - both of those are insults.
Both of those were *broken*. that's why that was changed. The glory days of dumpster tanking are over and have been for more than half the game's history now.
We have *better* tanks, now. We have *better teams* now, with powers that a fire/fire tank didn't even dream of before ED and the rest of the changes.
Way more fun powers, and what's more, "fun" includes *everyone on a team regardless of their power choices*.
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I didnt say whole maps, maybe they should of made the AI smarter not just put caps on things? make mobs only follow so far?
my example is not an exploit but was changed anyways
pay more attention
and stop trying to shoehorn your fun into my fun, if you didnt find it fun dont do it, the tank that did herd that much found that fun. Do i agree you should be able to herd entire maps alone jump in a dumpster and put burn with no risk, hell no, but if i had a sonic defender now an empath and herded lets say 50 guys into a room that would be an exploit if i could do it?
stop being obtuse and see it from someone elses point of view
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Looking at it from your point of view though, it was still a broken mechanic. Let's say, instead of putting on an aggro cap or AoE cap, they made it so the mobs only moved so far and you were able to only pull one or two spawns. What would have happened back then? The tank would stand there, pull those mobs, and every one would concentrate their attention on him removing ALL risk for every other player. Defenders still wouldn't be needed (the tank, and everyone else, isn't taking damage). Controllers wouldn't be needed (why would you want to hold the mobs and keep them away from the tank?). Scrappers wouldn't be needed (why have someone with mainly single-target attacks when a blaster could hit them all with AoE's?). If you're a fire tank (and most tanks were), you didn't need anyone.
You say "improve the AI", but the main point was that with the incredible stats you could easily give your characters back then, there was almost no risk and challenge. Unlike today, where you have to work and invest time to get IO sets and purples, you just had to drop SOs into your powers. Six-slot your shields with defense, and you were untouchable. Six-slot your attacks with damage and pick up targeting drone for accuracy, and a couple attacks wiped out entire spawns. Six-slot holds for hold duration, and entire spawns became stationary cardboard cutouts.
I remember those days. That wasn't fun.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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Yes but the information was there, it is their own fault if they couldn't be bothered to read it.
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it doesn't matter if they read it or not.
Post all the "don't eat people" signs you want on the Savannah, lions will still do it- that's their nature.
Players will find efficient reward paths.
If developers don't want them to, it must be coded into the game.
Asking doesn't work, period. It never has, it never will.
Their release of AE was like throwing a deer into the lion cage and then having a screaming fit when it got eaten.
Gamers acting like gamers is predictable and understandable.
All the fault here lies with the devs, the alleged 'adults' who threw a huge fit when their paying customers didn't use a toy they way they wanted them to.
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Why is this thread so long when this was posted on the first page? Giving people the means for an easy path then expecting them not to use it 'because they say so' seriously doesn't understand their market.
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... the people who didn't heed the devs wouldn't find themselves in the predicament they now find themselves in if they had simply 'obeyed the rules'.
If you leave a treat on the counter, and you tell Jimmy its not for him, and Jimmy eats it anyway hes' gonna get spanked.
Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
Steam Profile
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A decent ramble, but the issue is, the game is on the RPers' side. This game focuses on the journery from 1-50 rather than endgame content, and even in that endgame content there's few raids and no race to get the best gear and loot.
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That's the whole point of MMORPGs.
If your goal is that end-game content is all that's meant to be played, and early content is just filler, then using any kind of leveling mechanic is bad design. If the goal is to play and have fun with level 50 content, then you remove the levels, start everyone out with all of their abilities, and then let them play that content immediately. It's not an MMORPG though, it's just another action games.
This game doesn't concentrate on the lower levels over the higher levels. There's just about as much to do at any of the levels, with level 50 having its own assortment of missions, arcs, task forces, trials, etc.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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A decent ramble, but the issue is, the game is on the RPers' side. This game focuses on the journery from 1-50 rather than endgame content, and even in that endgame content there's few raids and no race to get the best gear and loot.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the whole point of MMORPGs.
If your goal is that end-game content is all that's meant to be played, and early content is just filler, then using any kind of leveling mechanic is bad design. If the goal is to play and have fun with level 50 content, then you remove the levels, start everyone out with all of their abilities, and then let them play that content immediately. It's not an MMORPG though, it's just another action games.
This game doesn't concentrate on the lower levels over the higher levels. There's just about as much to do at any of the levels, with level 50 having its own assortment of missions, arcs, task forces, trials, etc.
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This is one of the reasons why some people dislike the WoW model. At least in Everquest, the game was all encompassing, the grindfest that it was. WoW is just a grindfest to acheive raid and pvp content. Everything in between is just the means to get there.
Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
Steam Profile
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Yes but the information was there, it is their own fault if they couldn't be bothered to read it.
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it doesn't matter if they read it or not.
Post all the "don't eat people" signs you want on the Savannah, lions will still do it- that's their nature.
Players will find efficient reward paths.
If developers don't want them to, it must be coded into the game.
Asking doesn't work, period. It never has, it never will.
Their release of AE was like throwing a deer into the lion cage and then having a screaming fit when it got eaten.
Gamers acting like gamers is predictable and understandable.
All the fault here lies with the devs, the alleged 'adults' who threw a huge fit when their paying customers didn't use a toy they way they wanted them to.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is this thread so long when this was posted on the first page? Giving people the means for an easy path then expecting them not to use it 'because they say so' seriously doesn't understand their market.
[/ QUOTE ]
... the people who didn't heed the devs wouldn't find themselves in the predicament they now find themselves in if they had simply 'obeyed the rules'.
If you leave a treat on the counter, and you tell Jimmy its not for him, and Jimmy eats it anyway hes' gonna get spanked.
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More like a cookie was left on a counter and a note saying not to eat it was left in drawer no one ever opens
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If your goal is that end-game content is all that's meant to be played, and early content is just filler, then using any kind of leveling mechanic is bad design. If the goal is to play and have fun with level 50 content, then you remove the levels, start everyone out with all of their abilities, and then let them play that content immediately. It's not an MMORPG though, it's just another action games.
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I don't quite understand how you come to the conclusion that a game without levels is not an (MMO)RPG. There are tons of RPGs that have no levels whatsoever; that most MMORPGs do have levels is an artifact of their EverQuest/MUD heritage, not because it's a necessary ingredient.
It is also important here to distinguish between level as a character development mechanic (you gain more and new abilities as you gain experience vs. levels as a challenge aspect (if something's higher/lower level than you, then it gets bonuses/penalties fighting you, has more/less hit points, etc.). You can have the first and not the second: You could in principle redesign all of CoH around Giant Monster mechanics, unify player health point pools and damage scale across levels and make the second aspect almost disappear, while still technically having levels.
This whole thread reminds me of one guy on Freedom loudly and proudly claiming that the game would triple its playerbase if the Devs banned RPers from ever playing the game.
But he didn't stop at RPers, he said any and all Non-Farmers should be banned from the game.
His reasoning?
Farmers typically have 2-3 accounts (or even more, look at the RMT people), therefore if non-farmers are banned then the playerbase would double or even triple!
The game would flourish with nothing BUT farms, every mission being a perfectly farmable mission, cutting out the useless text that explains anything. All the in-game clues, souvenirs, contact flavor text, Salvage Info, Enhancement Info, all of it, would be deleted and make room for more farmers.
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
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A decent ramble, but the issue is, the game is on the RPers' side. This game focuses on the journery from 1-50 rather than endgame content, and even in that endgame content there's few raids and no race to get the best gear and loot.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the whole point of MMORPGs.
If your goal is that end-game content is all that's meant to be played, and early content is just filler, then using any kind of leveling mechanic is bad design. If the goal is to play and have fun with level 50 content, then you remove the levels, start everyone out with all of their abilities, and then let them play that content immediately. It's not an MMORPG though, it's just another action games.
This game doesn't concentrate on the lower levels over the higher levels. There's just about as much to do at any of the levels, with level 50 having its own assortment of missions, arcs, task forces, trials, etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is one of the reasons why some people dislike the WoW model. At least in Everquest, the game was all encompassing, the grindfest that it was. WoW is just a grindfest to acheive raid and pvp content. Everything in between is just the means to get there.
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And the way they expand the game, by raising the level cap, seems totally counter-intuitive and wasteful. It makes all the previous level cap's content, which would have taken months of development time and millions of dollars, all becomes obsolete.
The devs in this game seem to be trying to make content in a way in that it gets as much mileage as possible, nothing goes to waste. It doesn't always work (Shadow Shard), but I think it's a good attitude for both fun and profit.
...which leads us back to why they fight farming and PLing, because all the content they worked so hard on is getting ignored.
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A decent ramble, but the issue is, the game is on the RPers' side. This game focuses on the journery from 1-50 rather than endgame content, and even in that endgame content there's few raids and no race to get the best gear and loot.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the whole point of MMORPGs.
If your goal is that end-game content is all that's meant to be played, and early content is just filler, then using any kind of leveling mechanic is bad design. If the goal is to play and have fun with level 50 content, then you remove the levels, start everyone out with all of their abilities, and then let them play that content immediately. It's not an MMORPG though, it's just another action games.
This game doesn't concentrate on the lower levels over the higher levels. There's just about as much to do at any of the levels, with level 50 having its own assortment of missions, arcs, task forces, trials, etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is one of the reasons why some people dislike the WoW model. At least in Everquest, the game was all encompassing, the grindfest that it was. WoW is just a grindfest to acheive raid and pvp content. Everything in between is just the means to get there.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the way they expand the game, by raising the level cap, seems totally counter-intuitive and wasteful. It makes all the previous level cap's content, which would have taken months of development time and millions of dollars, all becomes obsolete.
The devs in this game seem to be trying to make content in a way in that it gets as much mileage as possible, nothing goes to waste. It doesn't always work (Shadow Shard), but I think it's a good attitude for both fun and profit.
...which leads us back to why they fight farming and PLing, because all the content they worked so hard on is getting ignored.
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The only way around the obsolete content phenomenon once you raise the cap is to have linear progression, but people hate linear progression as well. It stagnates the gameplay.
Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
Steam Profile
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...which leads us back to why they fight farming and PLing, because all the content they worked so hard on is getting ignored.
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they fight neither farming nor PL'ing, they just crack down on outliers who exceed their acceptable rate of progression.
to use their own (poorly defined) terminology, they fight "exploits".
Farmers and Pl'ers pay their sub like everyone else which means its in the devs best interests not to impose unreasonable sanctions on them. The game isn't big enough to alienate sizable demographics and emerge unscathed.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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they fight neither farming nor PL'ing, they just crack down on outliers who exceed their acceptable rate of progression.
to use their own (poorly defined) terminology, they fight "exploits".
Farmers and Pl'ers pay their sub like everyone else which means its in the devs best interests not to impose unreasonable sanctions on them. The game isn't big enough to alienate sizable demographics and emerge unscathed.
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I think the reason ppl keep lumping the farm/pl crowd in with the exploit crowd is because so much of it is done through the exploit mechanics as of late. A lot of people also equate the act of powerlevelling as an exploit because it isn't part of the intended play philosophy a lot of people hold on to.
Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
Steam Profile
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We have the worst attention spans.
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Look! A Pony!
Oops I busted a button on my shirt...
*Picks up button*
Gimme ur shirt, I'll sew it back on 
*hands over her shirt*
GET A ROOM!
lol!
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