The Case for the Fitness Pool, part 10,000...
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2009-05-21 17:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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<.< I'm doing fine as dark/regen without stamina.
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Oh wow, a Secondary that has a Stamina duplicate (Quick Recovery) within it doesn't Stamina. Who would have thought?
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<.< I'm doing fine as dark/regen without stamina.
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Oh wow, a Secondary that has a Stamina duplicate (Quick Recovery) within it doesn't Stamina. Who would have thought?
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And an end recovery power in the primary.
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<.< I'm doing fine as dark/regen without stamina.
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Oh wow, a Secondary that has a Stamina duplicate (Quick Recovery) within it doesn't Stamina. Who would have thought?
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And an end recovery power in the primary.
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Stamina is basically a prerequisite on all of my builds, including those with Quick Recovery. Anyone who doesn't take it, and expects the team to compensate should have their harddrive melted, and their subscription account be Generic'd, along with all of their characters.
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Well to be honest this is a problem (somewhat). When my friend first started to play this game on a regular basis (a month or so after CoH was released) we were lvl'ing fine and, me being the forum person/trying to know 'everything', went to get Stamina and was doing fine. My friend on the other hand, who "just wants to play/have fun" never picked up the Fitness line. Then he'd complain about having to wait for endurance or what have you. I'd always suggest that he should get Stamina but he'd always say something along the lines of what the OP has in her log/post, "but then I'd have to waste 2 power slots to get Stamina...it's not worth it."
And to be honest, I agree. Granted now Swift, Hurdle and Health all have their places and even one, Health, is nice to have because of the proc IOs you can put in it but in general...eh yeah...they are "boring" to get. To me (and to my friend), leveling up and getting new/cool powers is fun to us. Leveling up, going to the trainer at, say lvl 16, and be like, "well gee I could get a cool primary/secondary power (or power pool) but if I actually want to survive/not wait on my endurance I have to start picking up the Fitness power pool line now...then at 18 and finally get Stamina at 20."
Yes Stamina may not be as needed as it had been before IOs/procs/etc but...I usually still get it on all my chars (unless there is a specific reason not to).
I'd really like to see the Fitness line get opened up/given to us automatically. Like at lvl 12 you get Swift or Hurdle, then at 16 you get Hurdle or Health next then at 20 you get Stamina.
Heck I'd be fine with getting them all one at a time and you wouldn't get Stamina until, let's say, lvl 26. As long as it frees up some power slots...I might get more fun/cooler powers instead of "Swift"...hooray... :P
Anyways...
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Fire guy [not his real name]: Man, i need to slot me some of those endurance reducing thingys!
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i'd say this is at least as big a factor as not having Stamina.[...]
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I think it's an even bigger factor. None of my characters have Stamina. Okay, the Willpower ones all have Quick Recovery, but I know, thanks to Dual Builds, that at least one of them does not actually need it. Now it's only there on her primary build because I didn't want to pick a random pool power just to take up a power choice, like I did for her secondary build.
I think that Fire Guy [not his real name]'s actual problem is in getting his synapses to fire regularly. I mean, he's apparently figured out that he needs some Endurance Reduction Enhancements, but instead of making for an appropriate NPC and getting some, he complains about not having any! What kind of thought process leads to that? Clearly Fire Guy's not the brightest ember in the fireplace.
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Stamina is basically a prerequisite on all of my builds, including those with Quick Recovery. Anyone who doesn't take it, and expects the team to compensate should have their harddrive melted, and their subscription account be Generic'd, along with all of their characters.
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Ditto.
I really don't care if other people don't want to plan for their Endurance issues; I don't have to play their character. The thing that torques my gears is the continual begging for blues/Radiant Aura/SB or any other power someone else has, so they can get out of having to pick "boring" powers that would allow them to be self-sufficient LIKE THE REST OF US.
No Stamina? No End. reducers? Cool. But I don't want to hear one single peep out of their keyboards about how they're always out of End. Because that is the metaphorical bed that they made for their character, and they can lie in it. No whining allowed.
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Stamina is basically a prerequisite on all of my builds, including those with Quick Recovery. Anyone who doesn't take it, and expects the team to compensate should have their harddrive melted, and their subscription account be Generic'd, along with all of their characters.
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Ditto.
I really don't care if other people don't want to plan for their Endurance issues; I don't have to play their character. The thing that torques my gears is the continual begging for blues/Radiant Aura/SB or any other power someone else has, so they can get out of having to pick "boring" powers that would allow them to be self-sufficient LIKE THE REST OF US.
No Stamina? No End. reducers? Cool. But I don't want to hear one single peep out of their keyboards about how they're always out of End. Because that is the metaphorical bed that they made for their character, and they can lie in it. No whining allowed.
[/ QUOTE ] While I'm a firm believer that nobody needs stamina, I take it on almost every single character. It's just an extremely helpful power.
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I'd really like to see the Fitness line get opened up/given to us automatically. Like at lvl 12 you get Swift or Hurdle, then at 16 you get Hurdle or Health next then at 20 you get Stamina.
[/ QUOTE ] I don't really see it being needed. In order to get to the level a lot of us want our characters to be, we have to (maybe)make a sacrifice or two along the way. I don't see a problem with that.
Rather than see Stamina made inherent, I really think some of the END required by certain powers needs to be looked at; especially damage AoEs. These have an absolutely ridiculous END cost; especially for newer players who may innocently pick them up at the levels they're first offered at.
The END cost of many if not most shields is beyond heavy, at levels where you cannot really do much about it. This effectively hamstrings melee people at low levels.
It can even be a problem for upper-level people. Just ask my /dark Scrapper. 
Time to update my Endurance Dysfunction guide to make it for all archetypes
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Stamina is basically a prerequisite on all of my builds, including those with Quick Recovery. Anyone who doesn't take it, and expects the team to compensate should have their harddrive melted, and their subscription account be Generic'd, along with all of their characters.
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bah! My emp/dark doesn't have Stamina and he runs 5 toggles in battle. Yes, he has IO's but no purples or uniques and he doesn't have (or need) Conserve Power, either. Actually, I have not yet taken Stamina on a defender.
On the other hand, all my scrappers/tankers/blasters/controllers have it, unless they have something like Quick Recovery.
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But the point, Ironblade, is not whether or not any of us thinks Stamina is necessary. Anyone who does not want Fitness is free to not pick it up.
The point is that people who decline to address their END issues in some manner or another have lost their right to complain about it. They shouldnt be panhandling for blues.
I need my blues, or at least always keep 3-4 in my tray just in case. I don't give them away, because inspirations drop like rain in this game for everyone; it should never be an issue, except in very special instances like the final mission of a SF. Some people act like other players should be their personal reserve of blues.
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Stamina is basically a prerequisite on all of my builds, including those with Quick Recovery. Anyone who doesn't take it, and expects the team to compensate should have their harddrive melted, and their subscription account be Generic'd, along with all of their characters.
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My WP/DB tank's got 4.10% end/sec recovery currently. I wish I could get it higher!
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The point is that people who decline to address their END issues in some manner or another have lost their right to complain about it. They shouldnt be panhandling for blues.
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If I were to team with you, which I very rarely PuG, You wouldn't hear anything from me about needing Inspirations, unless I needed one to convert to an awaken, or something similar. Even then, I probably wouldn't ask for one. I'd just take my Stamina-less character to the hospital. I would probably get agrivated that you (the metephorical team in general, not you specifically) keeps killing the anchor for my debuffs.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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Stamina is basically a prerequisite on all of my builds, including those with Quick Recovery. Anyone who doesn't take it, and expects the team to compensate should have their harddrive melted, and their subscription account be Generic'd, along with all of their characters.
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I woudln't go that far, but I think both my post and yours reflect similar views regarding teaming and Stamina.
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Of course the people asking for inherent Stamina and/or Health are (IMHO) missing the fact that if EVERYONE gets it automagically then the devs will just have to rebalance everything to account for the extra end everyone now has
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Of course the people asking for inherent Stamina and/or Health are (IMHO) missing the fact that if EVERYONE gets it automagically then the devs will just have to rebalance everything to account for the extra end everyone now has
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It needs to remain a choice. I don't see the need for it to be inherent because as people have stated there are builds that can be played without it.
If the Devs want to do the work of rebalancing for innate Stamina then thats their call but it seems like its more work than it needs to be. Once everyone has it and runs missions after a rebalance and find they are now in the same boat they were before they had it, because more difficult mobs means more end cost per fight or that more skill costs means more endurance per cast...then they may wish that it was no longer a mainstream skill since its just absorbed as part of the game mechanic.
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The point is that people who decline to address their END issues in some manner or another have lost their right to complain about it. They shouldnt be panhandling for blues.
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If I were to team with you, which I very rarely PuG, You wouldn't hear anything from me about needing Inspirations, unless I needed one to convert to an awaken, or something similar. Even then, I probably wouldn't ask for one. I'd just take my Stamina-less character to the hospital. I would probably get agrivated that you (the metephorical team in general, not you specifically) keeps killing the anchor for my debuffs.
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There is no sense getting upset about that; its the reason my Dark/dark Corr respec'ed out of Darkest night and why my three Dark/dark Defenders [yes, I know....] refused to pick it up.
1. Team makes a beeline for my anchor every time. There is no known cure for this syndrome.
2. DN draws a simply incredible amount of aggro.
*RESPEC*
Problem solved.
Ah, you throw away one of the best tools in a set, and then complain about the way others build their characters.
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MM 11.25% tohit and 22.5% damage debuff
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The point is that people who decline to address their END issues in some manner or another have lost their right to complain about it. They shouldnt be panhandling for blues.
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If I were to team with you, which I very rarely PuG, You wouldn't hear anything from me about needing Inspirations, unless I needed one to convert to an awaken, or something similar. Even then, I probably wouldn't ask for one. I'd just take my Stamina-less character to the hospital. I would probably get agrivated that you (the metephorical team in general, not you specifically) keeps killing the anchor for my debuffs.
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There is no sense getting upset about that; its the reason my Dark/dark Corr respec'ed out of Darkest night and why my three Dark/dark Defenders [yes, I know....] refused to pick it up.
1. Team makes a beeline for my anchor every time. There is no known cure for this syndrome.
2. DN draws a simply incredible amount of aggro.
*RESPEC*
Problem solved.
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1. i tend to team with experienced players, so they try to leave the anchor for last. On teams not familiar with toggle debuffs i explain what DN does and ask them to avoid the anchor until last. (Including sometimes setting up a bind to announce the anchor.) This works the majority of the time.
2. DN draws the enemies onto the Tar Patch i dropped at the corner and allows me to herd like a Tanker while taking very little to no damage. Post 32 dropping Fluffy into the middle of a group also reduces aggro from DN. On open maps i wait until a teammate has drawn initial aggro before using or...
2a. Open with Fearsome Stare and then DN on open maps. Both have about the same amount of tohit debuffing, stacking them puts the enemies near the tohit floor. (The fear adds a teeny bit of mitigation as well.)
i've been on teams where we cleared away most of a map in one sustained battle by using DN to draw more spawns to the tanker while the team is finishing off the first group. i've also seen the same approach using two tankers, but DN can do it also when properly slotted.
All of which also suggests a third point/question:
3. Radiation Emission's and Storm Summoning's anchored debuff toggles draw just about as much aggro. Do you also skip Snow Storm and Hurricane on Storm Summoners and also avoid taking Radiation Infection and Enervating Field on Rads, or do you just refuse to play the sets?
Whether i'm playing a Rad, Dark or Storm user, having teammates kill the anchor of a toggle debuff is always a risk. However, the team is still better off than if the debuffs weren't used in the first place, and if the fight is taking long enough i simply pick another target when the powers recharge. If the fight is mostly over by then i save it for the next group. It really doesn't seem very difficult to me.
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I had to laugh Bad_Influence when I read your original post. In a way, I can understand the feelings of the blaster. Many times on my blaster, I found myself holding off on Stamina a bit because there was always a fun new power I could get that could let me "blow things up" faster. With me though, I'd slot some endurance reductions and play a bit more wisely to compensate for the fact I was still running without stamina. The player you mentioned is quite the tool. He could see he has a problem, but dismissed the solutions. It sounds to me like he's still relatively new. He hasn't suffered enough yet. LOL. At some point, he'll get tired of being tired, and will take some action to remedy it.
Even with me though (someone who has no problem putting off Stamina a few more levels), I almost always have started taking the Fitness line. I do it because I think ALL the powers in the fitness line are really really good. I get swift pretty early (or hurdle) because the increased movement speed is really really nice. On any character without a self-heal, Health is really quite nice. When its three-slotted, it cuts back on your downtime. At that point, Stamina doesn't feel like much of a sacrifice since it's so good and I already have the prerequisites.
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On another note, Bad, I've noticed an increase in highly annoying people in the game... especially joining TFs and AEs. I dont know why... but I've been playing for almost 3 months and never encountered such craziness. Its saddening sometimes.
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New boxed set in stores, big web advertising campaign ?
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The point is that people who decline to address their END issues in some manner or another have lost their right to complain about it. They shouldnt be panhandling for blues.
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If I were to team with you, which I very rarely PuG, You wouldn't hear anything from me about needing Inspirations, unless I needed one to convert to an awaken, or something similar. Even then, I probably wouldn't ask for one. I'd just take my Stamina-less character to the hospital. I would probably get agrivated that you (the metephorical team in general, not you specifically) keeps killing the anchor for my debuffs.
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Ever since the devs put Darkest Night into Ghost Widow's Patron Pool for Brutes, I've been having this problem solo. My habit, as a player with an anchored debuff, is to put it on the toughest enemy in a spawn, because that's what needs debuffing the most. My habit, when playing Brutes, is to kill the toughest enemy first, because that's just the way I've been playing this character for almost fifty levels.
So I'll pound some Boss into next week, and suddenly say to myself, "dang it! I just waxed my own debuff anchor! Again!"
The best powers are the ones that make you re-think your play style. 
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ShoNuff: If sophisticated = bro-mantically emo-tastic, then I'm going to keep to my Shonen loving simplicity dammit.
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On another note, Bad, I've noticed an increase in highly annoying people in the game... especially joining TFs and AEs. I dont know why... but I've been playing for almost 3 months and never encountered such craziness. Its saddening sometimes.
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It's due to rampant PLing of new players in MA. They don't know how to play their characters.
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This is pretty much identical to the post-Winter Lord era. It too shall pass.
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