The Case for the Fitness Pool, part 10,000...

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Rather than see Stamina made inherent, I really think some of the END required by certain powers needs to be looked at; especially damage AoEs. These have an absolutely ridiculous END cost; especially for newer players who may innocently pick them up at the levels they're first offered at.

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Precisely my argument. I almost never take Stamina, because I two-box my characters, and Endurance is rarely a problem when I can switch back and forth from one character to another. (Granted, two-boxing means I'm not as efficient as two separate players running the same characters, which is why I don't burn through Endurance as quickly. It's also why I always team with friends and avoid pick-up groups, because I know I'm not as fast as two separate players, nor can I contribute as much.)

The problem is that the game design isn't particularly efficient in its use of Endurance. Ball Lightning costs about as much as 3 Charged Bolts ... which means if you use it against anything fewer than 3 targets, you're wasting Endurance. Newbies don't always know that, and it takes them some time to figure it out. Armor has the same inefficiencies. Unyielding costs the same amount of Endurance whether you're standing, flying to the mission, or being attacked by 15 enemies.

I would prefer to see a more sensible Endurance model. Make armor toggles run at a bare minimum until they're being used. If you've got an armor that protects against Fire/Cold, and you're not taking very much Fire/Cold damage, then your rate of consumption should be low. Against Fire/Cold enemies (say, Circle of Thorns at certain levels) then it should go up. Throw a Ball Lightning against 1 guy, and it drains 1 target's worth of Endurance.

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Ah, you throw away one of the best tools in a set, and then complain about the way others build their characters.

Defender
18.75% tohit defbuff (enhaceable to ~30% with SO)
37.5% damage debuff

Corr 15% tohit and 30% damage debuff
MM 11.25% tohit and 22.5% damage debuff

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That's nice. DN is still gone and it is staying gone; when something creates more hassle for me than it does benefit, its outta here.

You'll have a legitimate complaint when I'm on teams or in here saying "Man, where is my ST debuff! I need to get me one of those!"... but I refuse to go pick it up.

Remember, my original point was: people are free to build how they want. Just don't come begging to me when [general] you is hamstrung by your choices.

Not having Darkest Night hardly hamstrings me, trust me. Besides this changes depending on who you are talking to: last week I was on a team and when the leader found out I did not have Dark Pit, the castigation began.

Leader: "WHAT you do not have Dark Pit! Best power in the game, I need you to have that!"

Leader's pet player: "OMG I would never ever run a Defender without Dark Pit, it is a Dark's foundation attack!11"

Me: "You two are the first who have had a single good thing to say about Dark Pit in my three years of playing this game. I'm serious."

[Both together]: "REALLY!?? Everyone we know and their little brother picks up Dark Pit FIRST THING! Why... [snip rant]"

.... can't please all the people all the time.

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I would prefer to see a more sensible Endurance model. Make armor toggles run at a bare minimum until they're being used. If you've got an armor that protects against Fire/Cold, and you're not taking very much Fire/Cold damage, then your rate of consumption should be low. Against Fire/Cold enemies (say, Circle of Thorns at certain levels) then it should go up. Throw a Ball Lightning against 1 guy, and it drains 1 target's worth of Endurance.

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I like this, it makes sense.

I would also like to have the amount of END Sprint uses drastically lowered. Later on I don't care, but at level 6 even if you have it on, you're crawling. Its not anywhere near worthy of the amount of END it uses.

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I understand armor that uses less half or a third end when not helping and sprint doing the same when not moving but a AoE effect is going to consume the same amount of energy rather it has something to hit or not.

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I would prefer to see a more sensible Endurance model. Make armor toggles run at a bare minimum until they're being used. If you've got an armor that protects against Fire/Cold, and you're not taking very much Fire/Cold damage, then your rate of consumption should be low. Against Fire/Cold enemies (say, Circle of Thorns at certain levels) then it should go up. Throw a Ball Lightning against 1 guy, and it drains 1 target's worth of Endurance.

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Alternatively, don't fire off AoEs at single targets because it is, quite literally, a waste of energy, and don't run toggles unless you think you'll actually need them.

If I incorporated Spin (a PBAoE) into my scrapper's regular single target attack chain I'd run out of End fast, and deservedly so. I also, frequently, turn off Tough unless I'm fighting bosses, because with 3 /SR toggles and Weave running I don't need to resist damage since I'm taking very few hits in the first place.

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For Defenders (who have the same mez AT modifiers as Dominators) Dark Pit is a nice little stun to keep minions off of you and/or break a spawn's alpha strike, and with some decent recharge can be made perma.

If you have an otherwise tight build, I don't know that I'd bother with it as long as you have better ways to deal with things, but my Kin/Dark Defender took it based on the idea that it'll give me plenty of time to get a Fulcrum Shift off and get back to cone range. As she's still only level 24, I mostly just toss it into a spawn at random intervals after they're grouped up around whoever's tanking.

But I do agree that you can get away without Darkest Night; it's still a very nice power to have, though. I don't worry too much about toggle anchors dying since I find they frequently run off after several misses in a row and I have to turn it off anyway or risk them bringing back multiple spawns.

But the 3+ second animation time feel like a waste most of the time if you're on a team, especially since your anchor likely dies as soon as it finishes, and while I don't have a high level /Dark I tend to not use the long-animation toggles (RI) in favor of shorter animation debuffs (EF) in those situations on my Rad Corruptors.

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That's nice. DN is still gone and it is staying gone; when something creates more hassle for me than it does benefit, its outta here.

You'll have a legitimate complaint when I'm on teams or in here saying "Man, where is my ST debuff! I need to get me one of those!"... but I refuse to go pick it up.


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Darkest Night is an AOE by the way....

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

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That's nice. DN is still gone and it is staying gone; when something creates more hassle for me than it does benefit, its outta here.

You'll have a legitimate complaint when I'm on teams or in here saying "Man, where is my ST debuff! I need to get me one of those!"... but I refuse to go pick it up.


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Darkest Night is an AOE by the way....

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Perhaps this explains all the aggro it draws, then. Either way, I'm still happiest without it.

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That's nice. DN is still gone and it is staying gone; when something creates more hassle for me than it does benefit, its outta here.

You'll have a legitimate complaint when I'm on teams or in here saying "Man, where is my ST debuff! I need to get me one of those!"... but I refuse to go pick it up.


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Darkest Night is an AOE by the way....

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Perhaps this explains all the aggro it draws, then. Either way, I'm still happiest without it.

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*facepalm*

Right, i'll be back later. Posts like that make my head hurt.

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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

(QR)

Everyone needs Stamina. It should be inherent into all builds and people should be ashamed for not using it.

Meanwhile I'll never use a vital AoE -tohit -dam power on any of my multiple dark/dark characters.

People have the option to take Stamina if they want to. They don't -need- stamina no matter what powers they take if they slot appropriately and play intelligently.

Noone is ever required to take any power ourside of their tier 1 secondary power.

-Rachel-

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They don't -need- stamina no matter what powers they take if they slot appropriately and play intelligently.

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Hi, Fuzzy Pink Cthulhu:

I'm old-school and I call continually begging other players for blues not playing intelligently, nor do I think they're well-slotted since they're running on 2 ticks or less of Endurance at all times.

Nowhere in this thread has anyone said that Stamina is mandatory. Its not mandatory.

But if you pass it up, don't be panhandling for blues. That's the main point of my original post; this is not supposed to be some build-Nazi war where anyone tells the entire playerbase to pick up Fitness OR ELSE.

And by the way....! Didn't you recently dub me a "very, -very- bad person!"? Seems like you should be avoiding me, lest my evil be contagious.

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Regarding debuffing toggles:
Radiation Emission's and Storm Summoning's debuff toggles also draw aggro. Do you skip Snow Storm and Hurricane on Storm Summoners or also avoid taking Radiation Infection and Enervating Field on Rads, or do you just not play the sets?

Whether i'm playing a Rad, Dark or Storm user, having teammates kill the anchor of a toggle debuff is always a risk. However, the team is still better off than if the debuffs weren't used in the first place, and if the fight is taking long enough i simply pick another target when the powers recharge. If the fight is mostly over by then i save it for the next group. It really doesn't seem very difficult to me.

As for the main topic:
Stamina is nice, very nice, but i still say slotting attacks for end reduction is generally just as important.

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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

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Right, i'll be back later. Posts like that make my head hurt.

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yep.

And for the record I would kick, and playernote, a dark defender who doesn't take and use DN (or a rad without their toggles) far faster than anyone who is stamina less.

YMMV of course

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

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Regarding debuffing toggles:
Radiation Emission's and Storm Summoning's debuff toggles also draw aggro. Do you skip Snow Storm and Hurricane on Storm Summoners or also avoid taking Radiation Infection and Enervating Field on Rads, or do you just not play the sets?

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This wasn't directed at me, but...

I don't ever open with Snow Storm - slowing their rate of attacks doesn't help me when the response from the mobs is going to either mez or kill me and turn it off anyway. I typically open with either Freezing Rain or Sleet, so I at least have the knockdown and mob panic mode to break up the alpha.

As for Radiation Infection... no, I don't use it much on teams past the 20s unless I'm the one expected to be taking the alpha. By those levels I expect you to have your defenses and accuracy mostly covered so that I'm not wasting 3+ seconds every encounter with a -def -tohit power instead of just using less than 2 for EF to make everything die faster.

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Regarding debuffing toggles:
Radiation Emission's and Storm Summoning's debuff toggles also draw aggro. Do you skip Snow Storm and Hurricane on Storm Summoners or also avoid taking Radiation Infection and Enervating Field on Rads, or do you just not play the sets?

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This wasn't directed at me, but...

I don't ever open with Snow Storm - slowing their rate of attacks doesn't help me when the response from the mobs is going to either mez or kill me and turn it off anyway. I typically open with either Freezing Rain or Sleet, so I at least have the knockdown and mob panic mode to break up the alpha.

As for Radiation Infection... no, I don't use it much on teams past the 20s unless I'm the one expected to be taking the alpha. By those levels I expect you to have your defenses and accuracy mostly covered so that I'm not wasting 3+ seconds every encounter with a -def -tohit power instead of just using less than 2 for EF to make everything die faster.

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I can agree with this post, mostly.

I'll still hang onto the -acc -def toggle for

A) Hard Targets (AVs and the like)

or

B) Damage Resistant/High Damage teams

On the former it's obvious as to why I hang onto it. Every miss counts. But on a Damage Resistant and High Damage team? I'd rather they never miss (except on a 5% or lower). And if someone has a high damage resistance (Invulnerability for example) debuffing Accuracy is -far- more effective than debuffing damage. The damage will be reduced twice before it lands -or- the damage has a greater chance of not landing in the first place. The latter seems more useful on high DR teams.

-Rachel-

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Oh, I still keep RI; I just don't use it much. It's still useful solo, when the pace is slower and I'm the only one they'll be shooting at anyway (see the "I'm expected to take the alpha" clause). In that case, what I open with depends on the spawn, though - since my level 50 /Rad is an Ice/Rad Corruptor, it's often Freeze Ray (for single-lt spawns) or Bitter Freeze Ray then Freeze Ray (for lt + minion spawns). With Sonic/ it'd be Siren's Song.

I find the mez-them-before-they-mez-you approach to work better than simply reducing their chance to hit by a bit once you get into the 30s; my Fire/Kin Corruptor doesn't have that luxury and tends to rely on mobility, line of sight, and tricking the stupid AI to reduce the incoming attacks.

As for RI over EF on a high damage/high damres team... -resistance will make the high damage stick better, and if they're high enough damage that the -resistance doesn't matter then the spawn will be dead before RI finishes animating. I may as well throw out a couple of blasts in that time and try to pick something off via Scourge.

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