Sure, newbies CAN get PL'd. It's their option. If they want a 50 hero so they can roll a Kheldian and expect a tank-mage, it's their option. I also think it's the worst mistake a new player could make.
Sitting inside a mission gaining levels without expending any effort does not cultivate knowledge of game mechanics, teaming or the game world. And what incentive do they then have to level up a non-PL'd toon? Why expend effort on something they just got for free, especially when it takes longer?
@Demobot
Also on Steam
Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it's a 'weak' position.
My position is perfectly valid as it is an opinion. Opinions are like Bellybuttons. Everyone has one and they're all utterly useless.
My response to your rebuttals of my opinion is 'respect that I have an opinion. Share yours, or leave'. Arguing against or for an opinion when it's specifically stated as an opinion is retarded.
Disagreeing with a lecturer is not lecturing. Disagreeing with an opinion and brow-beating the person who holds the opinion with negative appelations is lecturing.
You are dictating to me that my opinion is wrong.
Anyone can get to 14 in a day presuming they have a specific level of requisite skill and interest, and time within which to do so. Doing so Solo on their first play through, however, narrows that playing field substantially. My grandmother, for example, wouldn't make it out of the tutorial. However my nephew could probably get to his travel power in the space of a few hours.
Stating that 'Anyone' can hit 14 in a day is stating a false fact.
Outlawed = Against the Rules
Frowned upon = Not against the rules, but not liked.
You can have your own opinion on squeaking past authority, but applying it to all people is a bad idea.
The discussion is 'allowed behavior' but should it be supported by the community and the Devs? Or should we police our own actions to keep the nerf hammer from coming down on XP? After all: It was the widespread abuse of an exploit which brought so much ire to the Devs and the community. Should we encourage, allow, or attempt to socially restrict PLing? If we encourage it then we also encourage the use of exploits, which brings the hammer down. Do we allow it? By allowing it as a community we encourage it. Do we frown upon it and apply a social stigma to it to keep the ban hammer at bay?
You keep pointing out the hollowness and feebleness of an opinion. when you feel it is called for.
If you're going to continue with this method of action PLEASE Put me on ignore. Never respond to any comment I ever make, and live your life happily without me. Because I'm sick of people telling me how I should feel. How I should think. Which is -exactly- what you're doing.
-Rachel-
If they pay 15 bucks a month or more, it is NONE of my business how they play the game. As long as they are not RMTers, I just don't care. And I really don't think any of you should care either.
If you join a team and feel someone is not living up to how awesome you think they should be... Quit
If you are the leader of a team and someone is there that in your opinion sucks... Kick Them
Your (anyones) opinions on how people should play the game... Is you (anyone) telling people what to do with their money. It really is none of your (anyone) business.
I'd like to go ahead and apologize for pretty much everything I've said today.
A remark made in another thread about killing and life support really hit a sensitive spot in my heart and -really- threw me out of whack. I've been emotional, rude, and verbally abusive. I'm sorry. And I hope everyone can forgive me.
-Rachel-
[ QUOTE ]
Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it's a 'weak' position.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is true.
I cannot impose weakness on an argument, it is an inherent quality.
[ QUOTE ]
My position is perfectly valid as it is an opinion.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a common, and inaccurate, belief.
An opinion has no intrinsic validity, only what it is provided by its supporting logical structure.
The "all opinions are valid" belief is popular among folk who's positions float free on pink clouds of whimsy, untethered from reality.
[ QUOTE ]
My response to your rebuttals of my opinion is 'respect that I have an opinion. Share yours, or leave'.
[/ QUOTE ]
A weak opinion deserves no special consideration just because it happens to be yours and you think it's finely formed and admirable. I'm not the type who compliments the appearance of an especially ugly child to curry favor with its parents.
I've been freely sharing my opinions here all day, as noted previously not necessarily for your benefit but for the public at large.
If you want a platform where your belief can tower like a colossus over the landscape, unchallenged by disagreement, I suggest starting a blog and disabling the comments.
Because that isn't how public forums work.
[ QUOTE ]
Disagreeing with a lecturer is not lecturing. Disagreeing with an opinion and brow-beating the person who holds the opinion with negative appelations is lecturing.
[/ QUOTE ]
You have an interesting, if mistaken, definition of the word.
[ QUOTE ]
You are dictating to me that my opinion is wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is wrong.
What am I supposed to do, pretend it's great so you don't get your feelings hurt?
How other people play choose to enjoy the game is none of your business.
[ QUOTE ]
Stating that 'Anyone' can hit 14 in a day is stating a false fact.
[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone suitably motivated can do it easily.
Fact, period.
[ QUOTE ]
Outlawed = Against the Rules
Frowned upon = Not against the rules, but not liked.
[/ QUOTE ]
the devs have nothing but binary control over how people play- things can either be done, or not.
If they choose not to disable a reward path, players are free to follow it as they wish.
[ QUOTE ]
The discussion is 'allowed behavior' but should it be supported by the community and the Devs? Or should we police our own actions to keep the nerf hammer from coming down on XP?
[/ QUOTE ]
This is what I call The Magic Pony Plan.
It's like the people who's solution for the inequity between the red and blue markets was "people just need to play more villains!"
People are going to play what they enjoy, and in this game they mostly enjoy heroes.
Likewise, people are going to play the TYPE of game they enjoy, and for most people that's going to be pursuing rewards efficiently.
Expecting players to "self police" is as realistic as expecting large financial institutions to " self police", and would be every bit as successful.
The 'job' of a player is to play the game in a way they enjoy.
Rules and enforcement are up to the devs.
[ QUOTE ]
Should we encourage, allow, or attempt to socially restrict PLing?
[/ QUOTE ]
That's for the devs to decide.
Players are here to play, not legislate.
[ QUOTE ]
Do we allow it? By allowing it as a community we encourage it. Do we frown upon it and apply a social stigma to it to keep the ban hammer at bay?
[/ QUOTE ]
Irrelevant.
On a macro level, these questions are the purview of people with the power to enforce standards, which in this game are the developers and nobody else.
If you want to dictate pepople's playstyles, found a SG and kick anybody who doesn't follow your rules. That's the only way you're going to have any power over other players.
[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to continue with this method of action PLEASE Put me on ignore. Never respond to any comment I ever make, and live your life happily without me. Because I'm sick of people telling me how I should feel. How I should think. Which is -exactly- what you're doing.
[/ QUOTE ]
No it isn't.
You're entitled to think whatever you like.
But when you project it into a public sphere, I have every right to disagree with it and dissect its logical fallacies.
My arguments are threatening only to the extent that they're grounded in reality, not drifting untethered through a Utopian dream-world.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Man, Nethergoat is *still* in here trouncing the fuzzy pink Cthulhu. This is a record!
[ QUOTE ]
fuzzy pink Cthulhu: If you're going to continue with this method of action PLEASE Put me on ignore. Never respond to any comment I ever make, and live your life happily without me. Because I'm sick of people telling me how I should feel. How I should think. Which is -exactly- what you're doing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well you're busily telling everyone else exactly how they should behave, think and feel [and in multiple threads, no less] so my question is, "How do you like it?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion
Opinions are perfectly valid for people to have. I have my opinion. You have yours. Telling me that my opinion is invalid is pig-headed and pointless. Because it will still be my opinion.
The fact that the Devs have chosen to lash out at gratuitous power levelers should send up a red flag in your mind as to whether powerleveling is a good thing.
But the fact that Bad_Influence is backing you up an hour after I left an apology should throw up an even -larger- flag.
Bad Influence? Even after I made a statement that I'm emotionally distressed and am out of sorts you -still- felt the need to goad me into posting. So knowing that I was hurt and upset you attempted to goad further frustration and pain out of me.
You're a very -very- bad person. Please: Put me on ignore. Because I'll never hear another thing you say on the forums. And I'd really prefer not to have your baseless and vile negativity chasing me through various threads.
Nethergoat? Same goes for you. It was a mistake to take either of you off of ignore.
-Rachel-
[ QUOTE ]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion
Opinions are perfectly valid for people to have. I have my opinion. You have yours. Telling me that my opinion is invalid is pig-headed and pointless. Because it will still be my opinion.
The fact that the Devs have chosen to lash out at gratuitous power levelers should send up a red flag in your mind as to whether powerleveling is a good thing.
But the fact that Bad_Influence is backing you up an hour after I left an apology should throw up an even -larger- flag.
Bad Influence? Even after I made a statement that I'm emotionally distressed and am out of sorts you -still- felt the need to goad me into posting. So knowing that I was hurt and upset you attempted to goad further frustration and pain out of me.
You're a very -very- bad person. Please: Put me on ignore. Because I'll never hear another thing you say on the forums. And I'd really prefer not to have your baseless and vile negativity chasing me through various threads.
Nethergoat? Same goes for you. It was a mistake to take either of you off of ignore.
-Rachel-
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you keep responding?
I disagree with pretty much everything you say, always have and probably always will. Your theories make little sense, your undying DEVotion is old, and your rebuttals are worse than your original ideas. Once you hit the submit button you open yourself up to be picked apart, whether you like it or not, just like we all do.
If you're emotionally unstable because you read something on a forum, and I hoping to god it wasn't this one, you need to take a step back and line your life up a little.
In the meantime, don't post in these threads if you're going to get fussy because someone pokes fun or venom at your pre-school logic.
[ QUOTE ]
Bad Influence? Even after I made a statement that I'm emotionally distressed and am out of sorts you -still- felt the need to goad me into posting. So knowing that I was hurt and upset you attempted to goad further frustration and pain out of me.
You're a very -very- bad person. Please: Put me on ignore. Because I'll never hear another thing you say on the forums. And I'd really prefer not to have your baseless and vile negativity chasing me through various threads.
[/ QUOTE ]
1. As a veteran of many a flame-war, some of them far more intense than this little dust-up you're having with the 'goat here, I can tell you this: posting that a war has left you feeling "emotionall distressed and out of sorts" is really, really poor policy.
It makes you look weak, because it affirms that your opponent[s] has really hit you in a tender spot. I advise that you not do this.
In other news, I am not "backing [Nethergoat] up." I've never noticed that he needed help getting his point across, whether or not I agreed with it.
2. I'm a "very -very- bad person"?! Honey, you would not know a real very, very bad person if he or she snuck out of an alleyway and koshed you on the head with the butt of a sawed-off shotgun and then stole your lunch-money. You ain't SEEN bad. Trust me.
If you are this sensitive to people disagreeing with you, I'm not sure how well you'll do online in general. You'd better be bolted together very, very tightly or people online will have you shaking, rattling and rolling before you're out of the starting gate.
And for god's sake, stay off of Usenet. If you can't handle these forums, you're nowhere near ready for a true no-holds-barred contest of wills.
As for "baseless and vile negativity"..... I can only say, in a very disgusted tone of voice: GROW UP.
Hyperbole FTL:
Bad
[p.s. unless its MY hyperbole. My hyperbole is always good 
]
[ QUOTE ]
erfectly valid for people to have. I have my opinion. You have yours. Telling me that my opinion is invalid is pig-headed and pointless. Because it will still be my opinion.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're entitled to believe the moon is made of cheese and the earth is flat.
Your personal adherence does nothing to improve the validity of either belief.
See, having an opinion is a different thing from the validity of the opinion.
It's not that complicated a point to grasp.
[ QUOTE ]
The fact that the Devs have chosen to lash out at gratuitous power levelers should send up a red flag in your mind as to whether powerleveling is a good thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
It isn't good or bad, it just is.
And according to the devs they took issue with what they percieved to be "exploits", not with power leveling per se.
PL'ers have nothing to worry about as long as they stay away from the undefined "exploits" available via the MA.
[ QUOTE ]
But the fact that Bad_Influence is backing you up an hour after I left an apology should throw up an even -larger- flag.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with BI 99% of the time, but we share the belief that players have the right to play the game however they want, not the way some other player thinks they ought to.
[ QUOTE ]
Nethergoat? Same goes for you. It was a mistake to take either of you off of ignore.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, go and create your own cocooned little world where the only input comes from your clique of hall monitors and kontent kops who like to wag their fingers and pretend they're morally superior to the filthy unwashed who defile the game by <this space reserved for the evil du jour>.
I never ignore anyone for disagreeing with me.
Ideas that can't stand up to hostile scrutiny aren't worth the effort it takes to protect them from it.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you keep responding?
[/ QUOTE ]
My incredible psychic powers, obviously!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
*gets popcorn*
Man you can't make this stuff up.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
[ QUOTE ]
1. As a veteran of many a flame-war, some of them far more intense than this little dust-up you're having with the 'goat here, I can tell you this: posting that a war has left you feeling "emotionall distressed and out of sorts" is really, really poor policy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Heck, I haven't even said anything mean!
it's a good thing I've been using my 'indoor' manners, otherwise her noggin might have gone all Scanners on us.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
[ QUOTE ]
I said more than two(I don't play all day and never implied such, at most I play for 5 hours and that's irregular) and you can still hit 50 in a day with a normal pre-MA farm.
Somehow I doubt you'd risk hitting 50 in a day with MA considering you'll be banned. Sounds like a farce to me unless you're really stupid.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been doing this farming crap since I started playing this game, which was 4 years ago. I still haven't gotten banned. I can get a 50 in a day, farming regular content. This is not playing ALL day mind you.
Goat....you're my hero. Now go into battle with Arcana! lol
[ QUOTE ]
I only extend vendors limited prerogatives to dictate to their customers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is a bit odd as it's contrary to reality. Where did people get the idea that being a customer means telling someone how to run their business? 'Tis the other way around. Vendors do what they want and leave the choice for you to be their customer or not.
Dec out.
Whoa.
I've rarely seen bigger displays of arrogance and word-juggling anywhere around the Internet, and I know that's a bold statement. Let's just hope the mods close this battle of egos sooner than later.
OP: Ideally, no. But, to each his own. If you PL, at least have the decency of doing it with friends, and not paying slavedrivers do do it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I only extend vendors limited prerogatives to dictate to their customers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is a bit odd as it's contrary to reality. Where did people get the idea that being a customer means telling someone how to run their business? 'Tis the other way around. Vendors do what they want and leave the choice for you to be their customer or not.
[/ QUOTE ]
And if they don't want my custom they can tell me so. One of the many things about MMOs that amaze me is the number of customers who seem to feel empowered to deliver the "why not take your business elsewhere" message on behalf of the vendor.
A customer cannot insist on anything, to be sure. His final sanction, such as it is, is to indeed take his business elsewhere. But he is certainly not debarred from telling a vendor how the product should be designed, implemented or supported. Nor does the vendor have unlimited rights over the actions of the customer vis a vis the product.
The relationship is complicated in this market since we also have the gamer-gamemaster relationship. Not in the sense of support staff as "GMs" - I mean the original gm/player/player-character relationship. Here the GM has significantly more authority, historically.
But the tendency of the shriller members of the would-be authorities in the player community to take some statement by the developers, extrapolate their interpretation of what is and is not acceptable, and then use that fantasy to browbeat others into hewing to their line?
Like saying "newbies should not PL ever" and implying, as Tony did, that this is the divine will of the vendor, and that their opinion has some overwhelming weight on how players choose to use the software.
I may be buying this service, but I am not buying that local by-product.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
[ QUOTE ]
No one should power level. Ever. Period.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I couldn't care less what you do with your toons or how you play the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
...
Anywho, I personally don't think new players should PL. The game is pretty easy to learn, but there's still a learning curve to it. I'm not talking things like "What's the DPE of Fireball" or "Are the pseudo-pets that FS creates autohit?" I mean the basics, like "What's the difference between the types of enhancements," "Where do I train," and "How can I fly?" I think the first 20 or so levels provide a good primer/tutorial on that kind of information. Also, other players are going to be far more tolerant of someone <30 asking these questions than a 45. Of course, at the end of the day, it's their decision... the preceding is merely my opinion/recommendation.
As for veteran players, I really don't give a green [censored] if you PL or not. I have several 50's, I've played dozens, if not hundreds of alts, and y'know what? I'm tired of the 1-20 grind. I don't enjoy it. I enjoy Stamina and SO-level enhancements. So if someone offers my lowbie a chance to get there sooner, you bet your sweet bippy I'll take it.
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
There's no serious learning curve to this game. It's slightly more complicated than WoW. Anyone who's played an MMO before can pick this up with no problem.
UO, EQ, DAoC, etc had years worth of learning curves. Nothing after EQ has had anything worth calling a learning curve.
[ QUOTE ]
As for veteran players, I really don't give a green [censored] if you PL or not. I have several 50's, I've played dozens, if not hundreds of alts, and y'know what? I'm tired of the 1-20 grind. I don't enjoy it. I enjoy Stamina and SO-level enhancements. So if someone offers my lowbie a chance to get there sooner, you bet your sweet bippy I'll take it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Preach!
[ QUOTE ]
A customer cannot insist on anything, to be sure. His final sanction, such as it is, is to indeed take his business elsewhere. But he is certainly not debarred from telling a vendor how the product should be designed, implemented or supported.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, giving opinions is one thing. Delivering them in an insistent, empowered and entitled manner is quite another (as you note).
[ QUOTE ]
Nor does the vendor have unlimited rights over the actions of the customer vis a vis the product.
[/ QUOTE ]
Depends, really. In the case of physical objects purchased, once you get it, it's yours. In the case of services, no. Vendor is completely in charge. And this game is a service, not a product in that aspect.
[ QUOTE ]
The relationship is complicated in this market since we also have the gamer-gamemaster relationship. Not in the sense of support staff as "GMs" - I mean the original gm/player/player-character relationship. Here the GM has significantly more authority, historically.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not really that complicated, if you view this as a service.
[ QUOTE ]
But the tendency of the shriller members of the would-be authorities in the player community to take some statement by the developers, extrapolate their interpretation of what is and is not acceptable, and then use that fantasy to browbeat others into hewing to their line?
[/ QUOTE ]
Browbeating is bad, yes. On the other hand "stop being such a worry wart, that's not what he said" isn't.
[ QUOTE ]
Like saying "newbies should not PL ever" and implying, as Tony did, that this is the divine will of the vendor, and that their opinion has some overwhelming weight on how players choose to use the software.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, no disagreement there. Sidebar on the former comment, though. I'm not seeing the disconnect with what they said originally and later. It's entirely appropriate to answer the question asked about an opinion, and not really caring if the opinion is implemented in actuality. I don't think people should ever PL either, but I'd never suggest that my opinion should be the base for the devs to do anything. That's up to them.
[ QUOTE ]
I may be buying this service, but I am not buying that local by-product.
[/ QUOTE ]
Granted, and perfectly reasonable to my eyes.
Dec out.
New player, PL their first character?
Not only no, but HELL NO.
"When I was a new player, we slogged thru Perez and the Hollows on foot, without a mission teleporter or a map, and we LIKED IT!"
... well, no, we didn't. But we sure learned how to play pretty effectively.
Dumb the game down enough... and only dummies will want to play.
Guess that makes me a dummy, doesn't it?
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
I don't think it's a big deal if a newb wants to PL their first character to 50. Not a significant impact on me, so they can do whatever they want.
[ QUOTE ]
Problem is, Goat, that the question at hand isn't AIMED at the developers. It's aimed at players. Asking players opinions. I voiced my opinion on the subject and you've attacked me (repeatedly) for it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagreed with you no more or less violently than I disagree with anyone else holding a similarly weak position.
You are of course free to interpret my behavior in the way that best reinforces your sense of victimization and persecution, but you didn't get any special treatment.
[ QUOTE ]
Why?
[/ QUOTE ]
Your position is lame and needs to be rebutted.
And your response to these rebuttals ("pipe down and go away") has been instructive in its own right, validating the effort I expended on them.
[ QUOTE ]
Either Add to the discussion or don't. But don't waste time standing on your own soapbox lecturing others about standing on soapboxes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Look, I don't care if you steal my rhetoric- I've got plenty to spare.
But please use it accurately.
Disagreeing with a lecturer is not itself "lecturing".
I'm not dictating anything to anyone- I believe in letting people play whatever game they want.
[ QUOTE ]
YAY! You think that people should play the game within the Dev's limits. So do I! I also know that within the Devs 'natural' limits a player cannot solo from 1-14 in a day the first time he picks up the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are no "natural" limits to anything, there is only what the game allows and what it doesn't allow.
Anyone can get to 14 in a day, whatever their veteran status- that functionality is in the game. It is allowed by the devs.
You don't like it, great- don't do it.
Other players have different ideas of fun.
[ QUOTE ]
Add in a team to powerlevel said newblet and you've gone into the Devs 'allowable but probably unfavorable limits'
[/ QUOTE ]
Is it outlawed?
No?
Then so what.
[ QUOTE ]
Go beyond that into exploitation and you've gone beyond the limits the Devs have put in play.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, well, the discussion here is newbs PLing, which is an allowed game behavior.
You're like a squid, when you get in trouble you squirt an ink cloud of irrelevancies to distract people from your floundering.
[ QUOTE ]
Opinions were asked for. I gave mine. You ridiculed it. I responded. You ridiculed my response... Will it continue ad nauseum?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll keep pointing out the hollowness of your argument and the feebleness of your logic when I feel it is called for, yes.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone