Why I Can't Convince My Friends to Play CoX
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-03-05 24:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Free Respec & Costume Tokens = Rewards/Gifts
Costume Peices & Perma-Temp Powers & Base Decorations = Incentive/Bribe
If you need incentives to keep people playing, it is time to re-evaluate your game.
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They are rewards not bribes or incentives. If they work as bribes or incentives for some people that does not mean that is the intention of them.
I take them as a reward for being a long term loyal customer.
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Acts preformed witht he best of intentions can offten have the worst consiquances.
That would read so much better if I could spell half of that properly.
I wanna make an Angel with Angel wings..
Sure, just wait a few months and you will get wings.
I wanna make an Boxer, how do I get the gloves?
Wait about Three.... three and a quarter years.
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Limiting options, making someone have to stay to get certian things even if they are only cosmetic doesn't sound like a reward.
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So you are just hung up on the costume options which provide no gameplay advantage?
Personally, I hate that they are in the vet rewards and I hate that there are costume recipes as drops. But costumes aren't all there is in the rewards. Different people are rewarded by differrent things.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Hmm...
Well there is also the team recall, the two staffs, the axe and sands of mu. Minor advantages, SG Base teleport, and now the actual helpful pets.
Then there is the sprints and useless pets.
Costume peices arn't really a small part of this game. After all, how much time did you spend creating your hero(es) and Villians?
I guess I shall mark it as a side note but for me personaly. If it wasn't for the creation system that allows me to see many of my character ideas directly. I would not have made it to the three year mark much less beyound it.
We've recently gotten Dual Blades and Will Power and honestly... While intresting to me as it concern creation and character ideas.... beyound that... I have no intrest in playing.
It's wierd with me. When it comes to games and not playing them, it's because I don't feel like it, have something else holding my attention, or it doesn't intrest me.
I got one person to 50. A long term goal. Over the path and multiple characters I found I lost intrest in the story lines at level 30. The faultline is the only one I enjoyed. Mind you I did go to the Warzone when it was released but the story line there just didn't enjoy. By level 34, which has appened on more then just that one character, playing even on teams felt mor like a chore.
I'm just basicly waiting at this point to see if anything is done that resparks an intrest beyound just making characters to not use.
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I've posted this before in other areas of the board and am posting it here because it seems fitting 
Vet Reward Solution *snip...*
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I absolutely hate this. For one, you're feeding right into the sense of entitlement that everyone seems to have now. Vet Rewards are *rewards* for *veteran* players. They are to be *earned* by playing the game.
Also, I don't want double rewards - one weaker set and one Vet Reward set. Why should have I two Nemesis Staffs? Or two versions of Sands of Mu?
Vet Rewards don't need a "solution," as they have no problem. The problem is with a few people who feel they have to have everything *right now*.
@Arwen Darkblade
Proud Member of Hammer of the Gods and Sanguine Syndicate
Arc ID #86194 "Cry Havoc"
Arc ID #103934 "Dr. Thomas' First Day"
[URL="http://tobyfife.blogspot.com/"]Hero Girl[/URL] - my geek culture blog
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Hmm...
Well there is also the team recall, the two staffs, the axe and sands of mu. Minor advantages, SG Base teleport, and now the actual helpful pets.
Then there is the sprints and useless pets.
Costume peices arn't really a small part of this game. After all, how much time did you spend creating your hero(es) and Villians?
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You can get the Sands of Mu temp doing a mission from a contact in Talos.
You can get the Nemesis staff temp from Neal Kendrick in Brickstown.
You can get a group teleport from Mayhems.
You JUST need to keep an active account and you'll get the trenchcoat, the wings, the respecs etc. I won't begrudge my sgmate with the boxing gloves (of course, I am getting those in the fall, woot!) nor do I begrudge anyone who has a Rikti monkey following them around.
The trenchcoat is awesome and it's what, 3 months in? SO you play for a few months and can make your Neo/coolio clone.
I understand it can be somewhat discouraging to not have boxer gloves but there are TONS of costume options off the bat and quite a few more unlockables in game.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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Me: "Hey, you can get wings!"
Friend: "Really? How?"
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There are other ways to get wings. In fact, there are only two wings available just for Veterans, and they're not even the best ones. Go to the auction house (Wentworth's or Black Market) and buy a recipe and the salvage. After you craft them, they're usable at the tailor (ICON or Facemaker).
@Arwen Darkblade
Proud Member of Hammer of the Gods and Sanguine Syndicate
Arc ID #86194 "Cry Havoc"
Arc ID #103934 "Dr. Thomas' First Day"
[URL="http://tobyfife.blogspot.com/"]Hero Girl[/URL] - my geek culture blog
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Teaming: Yes, we probably would have benefited from teaming with more people. Why didn't we do that at first? Because in most other MMORPGs I've played, we usually start by soloing the first 10 levels or so.
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CoX isn't a typical MMORPG though. And part of its allure is the easy team formation with total strangers and extra power/role synergy in teams.
Yet, when I first started the game, I too soloed a good part of my beginner levels. Albeit on a scrapper - I had done some prior reading up to figure out this was my best newbie bet as a solo class.
Yes, the beginning game can be challenging. I joined the game when Hollows was around, and I was immediately funneled there. I had my share of faceplants from trying to dodge trolls and outcasts to do a marathon run to the mission door, of boggling at how the heck to get up to the KR rooftops for CoT, and thinking stepping a few feet into the Perez Park forest was an epic adventure (and getting my first Territorial badge at the bridge was like *wow, I am sooo deep into the forest*.)
And honestly, in my opinion, I think this is part of the fun. You are only a newbie once. Everything looks so much bigger and scarier in a beginner's eyes. It's part of the learning curve. You fall down... You stand up again, and try and figure out what not to do next time.
Making it too easy or too railroaded or offering too much handholding and coddling just devalues the experience.
For example: I tried WoW. I wanted to like it. After staring at a gazillion screenshots, the cartoony graphics had finally started to look appealing. I made an orc hunter, and was exceedingly bored by the time I hit lvl 12 because my entire newbie experience was on rails. The first few quests were in this teensy newbie area, don't go beyond there. Next few quests, in the surrounding areas. By looking at the map, I was wondering at which level I'd ever make it across the river. The only highlights of my experience were going to the big Ogrimmar town and sidetreking to play with pets and fishing. (Then I did make it across the river to find much more of the same mobs and quests, coloured differently, and I couldn't get myself to continue.)
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Asking for Help On Broadcast: Perhaps instead it would be more useful to implement a default-available, moderated Help channel
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Wouldn't you believe it? It exists. I just don't think it's made very obvious to newbies because it was added in a somewhat later issue, and just turned up as a tiny little extra channel square to select. And it defaults into a separate "Help" tab.
Another possible QoL improvement would be to somehow set up separate server MoTDs to introduce new players to global channels, and to the commonly used ones for each server. Either that or the community might want to step up and create a newbie-help type channel.
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City of Villains: So yes, CoV's early game is significantly better, and it would work wonders to improve CoH to mirror this achievement.
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It's more refined, and somewhat more linear at the moment because the streamlined level design really benefited from lesson learned from CoH. What's going to happen the moment multiple content options go in to accomodate people tired of seeing Kalinda or Burke for the umpteen time? Well, it might just get as messy as CoH again.
But I think the major issue you had with CoH's starting missions was in the map design. Apparently you had the bad luck to get a randomly picked mission door in the boondocks with red and purple enemies, and felt compelled to fight every single enemy on the way there. CoV's missions aren't so random, and some even appear hardcoded to various spots (snake pit by cobra badge comes to mind.)
Still, it should have been a learning experience as to what con-color actually meant though. It's a standard MMO trope. Don't fight or even go near stuff that's too high level for you. Or you die. Horribly. Maybe a hard pill to swallow, given you're supposed to be a hero, but it's something any MMO player has to figure out sooner or later.
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Mentioning negative aspects to friends:
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Again, my frank opinion is that you still seem too new to the game to give it a honest rundown to your friends. CoX has similarities and differences to the average MMO, and if you really wanted to let them evaluate the game fairly, you need to tell them both the advantages and disadvantages, and be ready to rebut standard assumptions.
CoX's strengths are the great costume creator, the wildly spectacular powers and combat sequences, alternate strategies from the holy MMO trinity of tank/healer/DPS, and ease of both teaming/soloing with -optional- loot.
Its very commonly stated weakness? Repetitiveness. If your friends do not enjoy the basic combat gameplay, you cannot win them over. It's just subjective liking. Period. No amount of dangling pretty costume pieces as bait will work.
Speaking of which, what should you do if your friend notices veteran reward wings and gets all glum about not being able to have them? Shuffle your feet and go "uhmm..."? => "Don't be silly, look, there's all these other costume piece wings that are buyable - for pocket change!"
By the way, I'm not saying that someone new to the game cannot try and encourage their friends to join in with something they feel is fun. But certainly if the new is leading the new, you need to accept that there might be pitfalls you're going to fall headlong into and just laugh it off as part of the journey. At least you're doing it together.
Yes, the initial newbie hero experience could use a bit of extra streamlining. When I went through the tutorial again lately, I did actually boggle at the amount of text that seemed to have expanded into a thesis - especially the sign regarding enhancement types.
But I don't think the problem is as huge as some people make it out to be. The difficulty seems to come if you're a staunch solo or duoist who doesn't want to interact with other people. I don't have much sympathy for that, I'm afraid. If you're a staunch soloist, I expect ya to be stubborn and persistent and have a big ego that can take a few hard knocks as you find things out for yourself...Or read forums for more information...
(I was like that, once upon a time. T'was only a month later, when I realized I liked the game, that I showed it to my best friend to let them make their own opinion about it...)
After all, I introduced three friends to CoX lately, and I was watching them make their stumbling way across hero and villainside.
No, I'm not heartless, another friend and I who did play CoX brought them into our SG so that they had a dedicated chat channel to use, and we did a few teams with them alone (to let them feel out teamplay) and with PUGs (to show them it's possible to interact with strangers and have fun.)
But I didn't hold their hands all the way either. It was hard, but I sat back and watched them fall into Grendel's Gulch...
Swear mightily at trying to separate Red River trolls, scream in terror at the Igneous caves, and get mashed by Frostfire, etc.
I seriously think they're better for it. You've got to have some bad experiences to appreciate the times when things go right. It's not like they got crushed at lvl 1. By the time lvl 5 rolls around and they can make it into the Hollows, it's time to face some challenges.
I personally remember despairing that I'd ever make it across Steel Canyon alive. What the heck were all these purple outcasts doing in the middle near the trainer anyway? The first time I talked to a vet who told me that they could run a lvl 2 -anywhere- without getting any aggro, my jaw dropped. Then I decided if it was possible, I was going to learn how. That's just
how accumulation of skill progresses in an MMO, imo.
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In that I am denied access to existing costume pieces that would be the perfect match for a character I have imagined, it really does diminish my enjoyment of this game.
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This is just a really personal "I want it now" opinion. What stops you from being innovative and creating alternative looks?
I'm not buying the wedding pack for $10. Oh noes, does this mean I can never make a bride or groom character? Do I throw a fit because I don't have a pretty bump mapped dress? I still have the color white, some skirts, a pretty tiara, etc. Black jackets, pants, etc.
I think some of your points have validity in them. Certainly there's room for improvement. But I also think that some of the issues are just somewhat exaggerated for dramatic effect, and can be viewed in a far better light by just changing one's mindset a little.
Invictus Est Level 50 Invul/Fire Tank
Malentis Level 50 Ice/Energy/Leviathan Dom (Freedom)
Black Jeremiah Level 50 Fire/Fire/Mu Dom
Sejanna Level 50 Dark/Dark/Elec Def (Virtue)
Arc #119664 - The MiniMech Cometh - Hess TF Mini-Sequel
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Me: "Hey, you can get wings!"
Friend: "Really? How?"
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There are other ways to get wings. In fact, there are only two wings available just for Veterans, and they're not even the best ones. Go to the auction house (Wentworth's or Black Market) and buy a recipe and the salvage. After you craft them, they're usable at the tailor (ICON or Facemaker).
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Aha this just happened to me a few days ago!
A good friend came back after a year absence and asked:
"How do I get wings?"
"Well, there are the angel and demon ones as vet rewards and several others as recipes."
I got him all the costume bits and some salvage, and he learned about crafting at the same time!
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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But I think the major issue you had with CoH's starting missions was in the map design. Apparently you had the bad luck to get a randomly picked mission door in the boondocks with red and purple enemies, and felt compelled to fight every single enemy on the way there. CoV's missions aren't so random, and some even appear hardcoded to various spots (snake pit by cobra badge comes to mind.)
Still, it should have been a learning experience as to what con-color actually meant though. It's a standard MMO trope. Don't fight or even go near stuff that's too high level for you. Or you die. Horribly. Maybe a hard pill to swallow, given you're supposed to be a hero, but it's something any MMO player has to figure out sooner or later.
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I've played a decent number of MMOs. CoH is the *only* one that regularly sends a new player to a mission/quest where they must run a gauntlet of enemies that are much higher level than the player's character. I don't think that's good design, I think it's bad design and can turn off people just trying the game out. The converse -- having players go to missions where they can reasonably tackle any foes they meet along the way -- is not likely to have any negative effects.
I reckon most players don't want "hard pills to swallow" when first trying a new game. They're playing to have fun, not to prove their manhood or something. There's plenty of time for hard challenges. Throwing them at the newbie is not good design.
I'm not saying that CoH has good map design. I agree it can be tweaked to be more newbie friendly. CoV proves it's possible to have mission doors in somewhat more level appropriate regions in the zone, rather than scattered at random across the entire zone.
But I'm also suggesting that since it already exists in this fashion, one can also look on it as an accelerated learning experience since the tutorial already did explain about con color. One doesn't get debt until lvl 10, after all. And debt is a mild death penalty compared to other MMOs too.
Sometimes if you make the newbie experience too easy, they're not going to expect the ramping up of difficulty later on. And then you've just done a deceptive 'bait and switch' on them.
And sometimes, a harder newbie experience might just encourage grouping up, socializing and making allies. Maybe it's the Hollows who encourages newbie heroes to start teams early... who knows?
Invictus Est Level 50 Invul/Fire Tank
Malentis Level 50 Ice/Energy/Leviathan Dom (Freedom)
Black Jeremiah Level 50 Fire/Fire/Mu Dom
Sejanna Level 50 Dark/Dark/Elec Def (Virtue)
Arc #119664 - The MiniMech Cometh - Hess TF Mini-Sequel
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Sorry but that is unacceptable to just tell people to suck it up.
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Well, "suck it up" is rather harsh-sounding, but the thought is valid.
Long-term customers are rewarded for their patronage. Common COMMON practice. Widely accepted and generally very popular with the customers. Does it make everyone happy? No, of course not. Nothing makes everyone happy.
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Why do people keep saying this? Rewarding long time customers is a "Common practice?" since when?
Common practice is exactly the opposite. NEW customers get special prices and rewards and long time customers get nothing.
Talk to your phone or cable company about getting that special new subscriber rate for a service you already have and watch them laugh at you. It is much more common to give stuff away to new customers as that is how your business grows.
Antagonizing new customers, even some of them, is a bad business decision. I have talked to a number of new players who feel left out by the Vet Rewards system.
Personally I'd like to see it ended but not removed. Put a 4 or 5 year cap on the program and move on. Anyone who has been around for 4 years at this point isn't going anywhere, giving them rewards serves no purpose. By leaving the system in place with a cap, it encourages newer players to stick around for a while and gives them the ability to eventually get everything. Currently new players will never get everything.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
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Sometimes if you make the newbie experience too easy, they're not going to expect the ramping up of difficulty later on. And then you've just done a deceptive 'bait and switch' on them.
And sometimes, a harder newbie experience might just encourage grouping up, socializing and making allies. Maybe it's the Hollows who encourages newbie heroes to start teams early... who knows?
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I don't think mission doors in level-appropriate areas would be considered "too easy". Asking for level 1 and 2 characters to get mission doors that do not force them to run around spawns of level 5s and 6s seems reasonable to me, and that's all I'm requesting here.
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I've played a decent number of MMOs. CoH is the *only* one that regularly sends a new player to a mission/quest where they must run a gauntlet of enemies that are much higher level than the player's character. I don't think that's good design, I think it's bad design and can turn off people just trying the game out. The converse -- having players go to missions where they can reasonably tackle any foes they meet along the way -- is not likely to have any negative effects.
I reckon most players don't want "hard pills to swallow" when first trying a new game. They're playing to have fun, not to prove their manhood or something. There's plenty of time for hard challenges. Throwing them at the newbie is not good design.
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Except for the time wasted finding the enemies of the appropriate level, those gauntlets you speak of aren't actually insurmountable.
I can get across the Hollows without drawing any aggro at level 5 if I'm careful.
I can find and defeat 10 even con Circle of Thorns in Perez Park at level 7.
I can find and defeat 10 even con Outcasts or Trolls in the Hollows at level 5.
Once you have a travel power, most of these gauntlets become much less trouble.
I will admit that finding 30 even con Rikti is the Abandoned Sewers at level 37 can be tough since there is almost no way to avoid the level 39 Hydras in between you and the Rikti. This is one mission I ALWAYS drop.
Learning about aggro distance and knowing how far you can push it against a large mob before you have to run are necessary skills to avoid massive amounts of debt later in the game. I'm kind of happy the Hollows is there to teach it before you reach level 10.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
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But I think the major issue you had with CoH's starting missions was in the map design. Apparently you had the bad luck to get a randomly picked mission door in the boondocks with red and purple enemies, and felt compelled to fight every single enemy on the way there. CoV's missions aren't so random, and some even appear hardcoded to various spots (snake pit by cobra badge comes to mind.)
Still, it should have been a learning experience as to what con-color actually meant though. It's a standard MMO trope. Don't fight or even go near stuff that's too high level for you. Or you die. Horribly. Maybe a hard pill to swallow, given you're supposed to be a hero, but it's something any MMO player has to figure out sooner or later.
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I've played a decent number of MMOs. CoH is the *only* one that regularly sends a new player to a mission/quest where they must run a gauntlet of enemies that are much higher level than the player's character. I don't think that's good design, I think it's bad design and can turn off people just trying the game out. The converse -- having players go to missions where they can reasonably tackle any foes they meet along the way -- is not likely to have any negative effects.
I reckon most players don't want "hard pills to swallow" when first trying a new game. They're playing to have fun, not to prove their manhood or something. There's plenty of time for hard challenges. Throwing them at the newbie is not good design.
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Worst case scenario should be a level 2 getting a door near level 6 stuff, IIRC. 6 is the highest in Atlas or Galaxy, and if a new player skips the tutorial entirely, then he/she has already shown some poor judgement. That's a 4-level difference... which IS a bit of a challenge.
I may have been lucky, but I've never had my *first* round of missions from my first contacts go to the red zones. Worst I've encountered is the orange areas (level 3-4) for my first 3 missions which is reasonable, but could be pure luck. By the time 3 missions are done, you're level 3, borderline 4. There, the level 5-6 isn't THAT unreasonable.
Also remember that levels mean different things in different games. In Everquest 2, just 1 or 2 levels different made a SUBSTANTIAL difference in difficulty last I played it. In City of Heroes, even at level 2 I can take on a single red-conned minion (3 levels higher) with a reasonable chance of success.
And look at EQ2:
Not many "door" missions, but the "trial of the isle" and similar tutorial zones are levels 1-6... with many of the level6 mobs "group" sized. It's also not too uncommon to get a task at level 3 that takes you to the graveyard near the largest level 6 mobs.
Leave the tutorial isle at level 5-6 and you're next adventure zones are 6-10. Again, a good chance of finding things 4 levels higher in a game where level differences are a MUCH more notable difference in difficulty.
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I may have been lucky, but I've never had my *first* round of missions from my first contacts go to the red zones.
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You're kidding. Never?
Now, I admit that what I know best is Atlas Park. I got into the habit back when it was the only way to avoid Vahzilok, but it's also less ugly than Galaxy City. (One big depressing industrial park.) And no matter which of the five origins you take, no later than mission 2 from the starting contact is going to send you to the far end of Argosy Industrial Park. That's level 5-6 Hellions, Clockwork, and now Vahzilok (and the occasional Infected). Worse, it's generally in the southwest corner, which is actually kind of tricky to get in and out of.
So what we're asking new players to do is to navigate a 3D maze, where the ramps aren't all obvious, with huge buildings in the way, where if they take a wrong turn they can find themselves at point blank range of two lieutenants and four minions that are all four levels above them, get insta-gibbed, and have to start all over from the hospital and try it again.
The thing is, as I mentioned above, we know that NCNC wouldn't do it that way if they had it to do all over again. How do we know this? Because when they did have it to do all over again, when they were designing Mercy Island, that's not how they did it. There's nothing above level 4 in all of Darwin's Landing. Upper Mercy, the 5-8 zone, is walled off and no mission refers you into there prior to level 5.
You still end up with blind alleys. You still end up with a few 3D mazes and a few places where, if you don't know the map from long experience, you end up having to back track a quarter of a mile and go around. Not everybody thinks that's fun, but it's part of the MMO experience. But it makes an order of magnitude of difference that unless you just stop and stand there and take it, it's almost impossible to get killed by mobs on the street during those first five levels while you're learning your way around the game and its user interface. No, really; CoV did it better, had the benefit of experience when they were making it, and they need to spend a little time and money to bring CoH up to the same standard if they want to grow their subscriber numbers.
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Why do people keep saying this? Rewarding long time customers is a "Common practice?" since when?
Common practice is exactly the opposite. NEW customers get special prices and rewards and long time customers get nothing.
Talk to your phone or cable company about getting that special new subscriber rate for a service you already have and watch them laugh at you. It is much more common to give stuff away to new customers as that is how your business grows.
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If CoH was a monopoly or a near-monopoly, I'd agree with you. But, there are a lot of MMOs out there. A number of them also have veteran rewards. Instead of talking to the phone company or cable company, ask your insurance company about long-term customer discounts, ask your airline about frequent flier miles, ask your credit card issuer about "points" and "cash back" rewards. There is nothing wrong with growing a business, but to succeed a business must also retain its current customers.
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Antagonizing new customers, even some of them, is a bad business decision. I have talked to a number of new players who feel left out by the Vet Rewards system.
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I've only seen that expressed on these forums. Never in-game and never in my SG's forums.
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Personally I'd like to see it ended but not removed. Put a 4 or 5 year cap on the program and move on. Anyone who has been around for 4 years at this point isn't going anywhere, giving them rewards serves no purpose.
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Actually, there's a new game scheduled for release next year. You might have heard of it.
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By leaving the system in place with a cap, it encourages newer players to stick around for a while and gives them the ability to eventually get everything. Currently new players will never get everything.
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Sometimes, you can't have everything. There are lot of things in the world I'd love to have, but I'll never get them for whatever reason. <shrug>
<QR>
I don't know if you tried this, but did you ask for help from other ppl in game?
I know since this was my first MMORPG I found that being on a team helped in two ways. 1 it made killing things easier 2 I could ask questions and the vets in the team would gladly answer my questions.
Now out of playing other games, I've found the low lvl content pretty barren, and maybe this is where you and your friends seem to be relying on "doing it yourself." instead of asking for help from cause those other MMORPGs don't seem to be low lvl team friendly.
I agree the hollows trap is a danger to fledgling heroes, and vet envy needs to be there otherwise why would you continue playing? Honestly the hospital/debt penalty is hella better then all the damned corpse runs I did in other games.
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But I think the major issue you had with CoH's starting missions was in the map design. Apparently you had the bad luck to get a randomly picked mission door in the boondocks with red and purple enemies, and felt compelled to fight every single enemy on the way there. CoV's missions aren't so random, and some even appear hardcoded to various spots (snake pit by cobra badge comes to mind.)
Still, it should have been a learning experience as to what con-color actually meant though. It's a standard MMO trope. Don't fight or even go near stuff that's too high level for you. Or you die. Horribly. Maybe a hard pill to swallow, given you're supposed to be a hero, but it's something any MMO player has to figure out sooner or later.
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I've played a decent number of MMOs. CoH is the *only* one that regularly sends a new player to a mission/quest where they must run a gauntlet of enemies that are much higher level than the player's character. I don't think that's good design, I think it's bad design and can turn off people just trying the game out. The converse -- having players go to missions where they can reasonably tackle any foes they meet along the way -- is not likely to have any negative effects.
I reckon most players don't want "hard pills to swallow" when first trying a new game. They're playing to have fun, not to prove their manhood or something. There's plenty of time for hard challenges. Throwing them at the newbie is not good design.
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Worst case scenario should be a level 2 getting a door near level 6 stuff, IIRC. 6 is the highest in Atlas or Galaxy, and if a new player skips the tutorial entirely, then he/she has already shown some poor judgement. That's a 4-level difference... which IS a bit of a challenge.
I may have been lucky, but I've never had my *first* round of missions from my first contacts go to the red zones. Worst I've encountered is the orange areas (level 3-4) for my first 3 missions which is reasonable, but could be pure luck. By the time 3 missions are done, you're level 3, borderline 4. There, the level 5-6 isn't THAT unreasonable.
Also remember that levels mean different things in different games. In Everquest 2, just 1 or 2 levels different made a SUBSTANTIAL difference in difficulty last I played it. In City of Heroes, even at level 2 I can take on a single red-conned minion (3 levels higher) with a reasonable chance of success.
And look at EQ2:
Not many "door" missions, but the "trial of the isle" and similar tutorial zones are levels 1-6... with many of the level6 mobs "group" sized. It's also not too uncommon to get a task at level 3 that takes you to the graveyard near the largest level 6 mobs.
Leave the tutorial isle at level 5-6 and you're next adventure zones are 6-10. Again, a good chance of finding things 4 levels higher in a game where level differences are a MUCH more notable difference in difficulty.
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Chase, first impressions count for a lot. Unless you're actively opposed to having the mission doors for level 1 and 2 characters moved out of the red zones, I'm not sure what your point is. If you think things are fine the way they are now, just say so. I think moving a few of the mission doors would be a nice QoL feature for new players. If you disagree, so be it.
I've done the island tutorial many times for EQ2, both for the good and evil sides. There's no graveyard on either island, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. Second, the linked mobs you encounter are specifically mentioned in the tutorial pop-up tooltips the first time a player targets them, so not knowing what to expect there only happens to the willfully ignorant. Third, the linked mobs are weaker versions of the solo mobs -- this is something that is nearly universal throughout the game. Fourth, if you follow the quest progression on the starter islands you'll never find your character near +3 mobs. Just killing a few mobs along the way will often result in you being +1 to your current quest targets.
Finally, you can leave the island at any time, even level 1 -- and if you do, the city zone you go to has appropriate-level quests you can tackle that will easily get you into range for the first zones outside the cities like Oakmyst or The Caves. And this only applies to the two original starting cities. The other three all give you level 1 quests right from the start, eschewing the tutorial zones altogether.
I've played a *lot* of EQ2 and what you describe doesn't match my experience at all, really, not even from the time I took my first character through a year and a half ago.
CoV lowbies vs CoH lowbies: I tried CoH first, played for a month, managed to get to a mighty level 12, and dumped it. It wasn't fun. A friend talked me into trying CoV, and it was a completely different experience. Much more enjoyable. It was about a year before I tried CoH again, and it was a lot different now that I had a clue. Plus, I had friends who were able to help me out with stuff.
Add me to the list of people who'd like a revamp on the blue side 5 to 15 content ( and give us villains a lvl 10 SF to equal out the recipes ).
As for vet rewards, time and time again I see comments made that CoX biggest selling point is costumes. I've seen more than one reference to "City of dress up dolls". Tieing costumes into the rewards is counterintiutive to me. Then again, so making a boxing costume.
The idea that the list expands, and I can pick what I what every 3 months is great. I rarely respec, I try to plan things out so I don't have to. And if I really want one, I'd rather do the trial anyway. I get a badge, xp, inf, and a respec? Sweet! Even at 50, I still get something, even if it's just inf.
@Oroborous and @Oroborous2
Avatar by HeroPortraitStudios
From the Groundhog Day Attempt at Citadel: GM, "There's no badge for breaking a TF."
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Chase, first impressions count for a lot. Unless you're actively opposed to having the mission doors for level 1 and 2 characters moved out of the red zones, I'm not sure what your point is. If you think things are fine the way they are now, just say so. I think moving a few of the mission doors would be a nice QoL feature for new players. If you disagree, so be it.
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It would be nice if it could be supported. I was noting that it really doesn't happen all that often. By the time you get a redzone door, you're usually level 3-4, in my experience.
Also, this might not be an *easy thing.* I recall some dev comment that the missions usually map to a specific door type, then randomly pick among those types.
It'd be nice, but a rare occurrence that isn't an easy thing to fix would be lower on my roster of priorities.
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I've done the island tutorial many times for EQ2, both for the good and evil sides. There's no graveyard on either island, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.
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When'd they change it?
Go back to where the big treehouse is... behind that is the cave... facing the cave with your back to the treehouse, go right. Far back corner of the map.
Used to be that a priestess way back in the much easier area would send you there- deep in the hardest area- rather early on in my leveling.
Maybe they learned something.
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Second, the linked mobs you encounter are specifically mentioned in the tutorial pop-up tooltips the first time a player targets them, so not knowing what to expect there only happens to the willfully ignorant. Third, the linked mobs are weaker versions of the solo mobs -- this is something that is nearly universal throughout the game. Fourth, if you follow the quest progression on the starter islands you'll never find your character near +3 mobs. Just killing a few mobs along the way will often result in you being +1 to your current quest targets.
Finally, you can leave the island at any time, even level 1 -- and if you do, the city zone you go to has appropriate-level quests you can tackle that will easily get you into range for the first zones outside the cities like Oakmyst or The Caves. And this only applies to the two original starting cities. The other three all give you level 1 quests right from the start, eschewing the tutorial zones altogether.
I've played a *lot* of EQ2 and what you describe doesn't match my experience at all, really, not even from the time I took my first character through a year and a half ago.
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Heh... I played it at launch and about the last time I went back was about a year and a half ago, tops. That was on the Fey trial side, and I still found a number of occasions where I was fighting one mob for my mission and literally backing into mobs quite a few higher right next to me.
I was an alt-aholic. Must've gone through two dozen alts... constantly deleting them... before I got my first past level 15. I loved how the quests were level-encoded, but I can recall quite a few arcs where I suddenly found myself slipping past mobs quite a few levels past me to get to the destination locations.
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Chase, first impressions count for a lot. Unless you're actively opposed to having the mission doors for level 1 and 2 characters moved out of the red zones, I'm not sure what your point is. If you think things are fine the way they are now, just say so. I think moving a few of the mission doors would be a nice QoL feature for new players. If you disagree, so be it.
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To be fair, my preferred solution would be revamp the whole leveling system to function more like it does with giant monsters & rikti. I'd like the game a whole lot more if the foes didn't grey out so fast and if some encounters always held some risk. Even wolverine found the occasional common thug a good brawling challenge on occasion...
Do that and there wouldn't be the huge difficulty difference in the redzones, just a reasonably more challenging one.
As InfamousBrad said, if you've not gotten a door in the red zone on a lowbie, especially in Atlas, you might want to buy a few lottery tickets, because the odds are in your favor.
I've created three lowbie heroes in the last few weeks and all three got missions in the red zone at level 2 -- par for the course for me.
I think it's a good enough fix to warrant being a priority. You may be right about changing mission doors not being as simple as it might seem, though. This is the dev team that managed in one patch to remove *all* doors from the tower in Grandville, after all. 
As for EQ2, the game has changed a lot, so if you haven't been through the tutorial islands in recent months, I've little doubt it's different now. I've never been sent to the higher level parts early on with any of my many alts. The dev team there has done a considerable amount of work in making that game more streamlined and newbie-friendly -- sometimes to the consternation of the grizzled vets who've been there since launch and leveled their characters both ways uphill in the snow.
The fact that we've not seen much of the same grumbling about such changes here (XP smoothing, etc.) would seem to suggest moving those mission doors might be a good thing.
It's not a dealbreaker for me, but then again, I used to level my characters uphill both ways in the snow, too. 
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Chase, first impressions count for a lot. Unless you're actively opposed to having the mission doors for level 1 and 2 characters moved out of the red zones, I'm not sure what your point is. If you think things are fine the way they are now, just say so. I think moving a few of the mission doors would be a nice QoL feature for new players. If you disagree, so be it.
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To be fair, my preferred solution would be revamp the whole leveling system to function more like it does with giant monsters & rikti. I'd like the game a whole lot more if the foes didn't grey out so fast and if some encounters always held some risk. Even wolverine found the occasional common thug a good brawling challenge on occasion...
Do that and there wouldn't be the huge difficulty difference in the redzones, just a reasonably more challenging one.
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I'd really like to see a "traditional" MMO try this. It would be a fascinating experiment, if nothing else.
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It'd be nice, but a rare occurrence that isn't an easy thing to fix would be lower on my roster of priorities.
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It's not a rare occurance, I'm afraid. It may depend on your origin; do you roll a lot of Science or Tech alts? I almost always get an Argosy mission door early on, but I almost never roll Science or Tech, either. Magic gets a mission to the SAME Argosy door every single time and always has; Natural uses that same door pretty often as well. Mutation seems to be 50/50. It's a real pain to get to and from this particular part of Atlas, both from an enemy standpoint and a layout standpoint, and I can see where a new player could be discouraged by it if they aren't really comfortable with CoH yet.
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Some of the SWG vet rewards were REALLY GOOD too. Back when being a weaponsmith was it's own skill, getting a big chunk of the best ore ever to spawn on your server was huge...
But I have to agree with the points on the early CoH game. When I think back to my experiences on my first hero (and I played with about 3 other friends, and thought that getting to the Frostfire mission was the only thing there was to do), and then compare them to how much simpler things are in CoV...
I could reiterate the list, but I would have to second the suggestion that new players should make villains. Even though most of my friends would want to make heroes first because they want to be 'heroic'.
Sure, there are things that individuals new to the game can do to be better, but the reality is that if people who would have continued to play CoH end up quitting due to frustration at low levels, it's really NCSoft who's losing out.
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I completely agree. The earlier atlas/galaxy missions need to be reworked so they are more new player friendly, rather like CoV is. More people are attracted to playing heroes the villains, if judging by the different population on each side is any indication.
It's bad to drive away early players due to frustration. I can't tell you how many betas I've been in where the game design of the early levels was very frustrating and the developers answer was "tough thats how it is"...needless to say these games have not done well.
Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base
"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
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Free Respec & Costume Tokens = Rewards/Gifts
Costume Peices & Perma-Temp Powers & Base Decorations = Incentive/Bribe
If you need incentives to keep people playing, it is time to re-evaluate your game.
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They are rewards not bribes or incentives. If they work as bribes or incentives for some people that does not mean that is the intention of them.
I take them as a reward for being a long term loyal customer.
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Acts preformed witht he best of intentions can offten have the worst consiquances.
That would read so much better if I could spell half of that properly.
I wanna make an Angel with Angel wings..
Sure, just wait a few months and you will get wings.
I wanna make an Boxer, how do I get the gloves?
Wait about Three.... three and a quarter years.
...
...
Limiting options, making someone have to stay to get certian things even if they are only cosmetic doesn't sound like a reward.