City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Why I Can't Convince My Friends to Play CoX

Acanous_Quietus

By Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-03-05 24:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

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Sometimes if you make the newbie experience too easy, they're not going to expect the ramping up of difficulty later on. And then you've just done a deceptive 'bait and switch' on them.

And sometimes, a harder newbie experience might just encourage grouping up, socializing and making allies. Maybe it's the Hollows who encourages newbie heroes to start teams early... who knows?

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I don't think mission doors in level-appropriate areas would be considered "too easy". Asking for level 1 and 2 characters to get mission doors that do not force them to run around spawns of level 5s and 6s seems reasonable to me, and that's all I'm requesting here.

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As I've also said, it's a reasonable request. I make a lot of alts (go look), and there are precious few early missions that don't throw you into the deep end of the pool. I have no problem with that, and almost anyone who's played CoH for a month learns to cope. But for that first-time player, there's no need.

I've been playing with a couple people who joined the game between Thanksgiving and Christmas last year, and watching them get confounded by the game has underscored the increased complexity the game has acquired over the years. The Hollows can really break new players unfamiliar with the mechanics of how this thing works. Coming off of their experiences running into purples in Atlas Park, they tend to get the idea this is the difficulty level of the entire game and get frustrated. And they're not far wrong. How often have you had to make a kamikaze run through Steel Canon or Independence Port?

That's bad design, pure and simple. The tutorial is very easy. The early missions go from "easy" to "OMG WTF just happened?!" as newbies get ganked by purps.

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SWG vet rewards.


I played MUDs that didn't have vet rewards but they did have preferred membership where those that paid more each month got access to more in game. I'd rather have vet rewards.

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Thanks, when I tested SWG years ago they didn't have such a thing

[/ QUOTE ]you know, i was surprised to find that that one mmo dosent have vet rewards, but apparently it causes some consternation on their forums even, but ultima online, tabula rasa, star wars galaxies, guild wars, and eq2 all have vet rewards. so yeah as i have been saying, it is a thing in the industry.

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Guild Wars does not have vet rewards, Neither does UO last time I checked (which was a year ago) and I didn't see any mention of them in EQ2's website. Provide links to the vet programs for these please. I'd like to see what they're doing with them.

I've been playing Guild Wars since early-mid beta and have never seen any sort of vet reward program and seeing as you don't pay monthly fees this isn't surprising in the least.

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Chase, first impressions count for a lot. Unless you're actively opposed to having the mission doors for level 1 and 2 characters moved out of the red zones, I'm not sure what your point is. If you think things are fine the way they are now, just say so. I think moving a few of the mission doors would be a nice QoL feature for new players. If you disagree, so be it.

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To be fair, my preferred solution would be revamp the whole leveling system to function more like it does with giant monsters & rikti. I'd like the game a whole lot more if the foes didn't grey out so fast and if some encounters always held some risk. Even wolverine found the occasional common thug a good brawling challenge on occasion...

Do that and there wouldn't be the huge difficulty difference in the redzones, just a reasonably more challenging one.

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I think I'd actually prefer this. They could just up the experience you get for mobs that have more powers / are tougher but still con the same color. Yellow Hellion is worth X, Yellow Carnie X+some so fighting the carnies is worth more, but then they're more dangerous then the Hellions.

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"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh

 

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I don't pay my girlfriend a monthly fee.

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Oh yes you do.

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He pays a daily fee.

 

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1. The gameplay is challenging, awkward, and frustrating for new players

Funny, few people from my inter-game guild stayed because CoX was too easy.

2. Veteran Rewards and optional expansions alienate new players

The "wedding pacK" was a ripoff, not in dispute. No one I game with could possible care less about vet rewards.

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"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

 

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Guild Wars does not have vet rewards, Neither does UO last time I checked (which was a year ago) and I didn't see any mention of them in EQ2's website.

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Uh, UO has had vet rewards for almost seven years. Here you go.

 

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I also agree that the 5-15 game needs revamping. I make a fair number of alts, and frequently run into folks who are having a hard time. CoV is way easier to grasp. The whole Hollows thing seems almost punitive to a low level person.

The vet awards, I really don't understand the envy/taunting thing. They are just little flavor things mostly. I have, however, always thought that giving costume options as vet rewards was a bad idea. The population of this game is rabidly, wildly creative and individualistic (which is wonderful) and having a costume piece that someone really wants for a particular character concept be unavailable can (and clearly is) causing hard feelings.

I like the tokens idea someone suggested above, and would also suggest that maybe recipes for the costume pieces be added to the IO drop pools. That way vets could have their rewards, and if someone really can't live without a boxing uniform, they can access it.

 

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Guild Wars does not have vet rewards, Neither does UO last time I checked (which was a year ago) and I didn't see any mention of them in EQ2's website.

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Uh, UO has had vet rewards for almost seven years. Here you go.

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Cool thanks for the link. As I mentioned I didn't see it last time I was there and have not played UO since about half a year into it's inception due to all the issues it had...mainly the gankers (Cor Por ), which really sucked because I loved the other Ultima world adventures.

Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base

"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh

 

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To be fair, my preferred solution would be revamp the whole leveling system to function more like it does with giant monsters & rikti. I'd like the game a whole lot more if the foes didn't grey out so fast and if some encounters always held some risk. Even wolverine found the occasional common thug a good brawling challenge on occasion...

Do that and there wouldn't be the huge difficulty difference in the redzones, just a reasonably more challenging one.

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Wait, so you mean that all enemies in the game would always con as even to you, at all times?
Honestly I really don't like this idea. Basically this would mean that all enemies will aggro on you, at any time. It would also mean that you never ever get any stronger than even the lowest level enemies do, you just gain more powers than them.
I like the fact that I can become stronger than enemies, that I can reach a point where I can run through a previous zone and nothing wants to mess with me. And I can't say I'd be thrilled at the prospect of having Hellions and Skulls still pose a potential threat to a L50 character.

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I don't think that's quite the way Chase means it (though I'll let him clarify). To me, it would mean a Hellion or Skull could still be a threat to a level 50, but not a serious one, unlike now where they become little more than bugs to be squashed. The game could also tag enemies to not aggro on higher level characters just as they do now, the player would just learn that a Hellion won't aggro on his level 50, rather than having a hard rule that "any critter five levels lower than the player character will never aggro on the player".

That's the way I'd see it working, anyhoo.

 

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SWG vet rewards.


I played MUDs that didn't have vet rewards but they did have preferred membership where those that paid more each month got access to more in game. I'd rather have vet rewards.

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Thanks, when I tested SWG years ago they didn't have such a thing

[/ QUOTE ]you know, i was surprised to find that that one mmo dosent have vet rewards, but apparently it causes some consternation on their forums even, but ultima online, tabula rasa, star wars galaxies, guild wars, and eq2 all have vet rewards. so yeah as i have been saying, it is a thing in the industry.

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Guild Wars does not have vet rewards, Neither does UO last time I checked (which was a year ago) and I didn't see any mention of them in EQ2's website. Provide links to the vet programs for these please. I'd like to see what they're doing with them.

I've been playing Guild Wars since early-mid beta and have never seen any sort of vet reward program and seeing as you don't pay monthly fees this isn't surprising in the least.

[/ QUOTE ]guild wars gives you a mini pet every year on your anniversery, i got a necrid horseman, havent claimed my second year yet, hoping i get a factions-style dragon, though back when i played regularly i saw that undead dragons got mad cash. as for the rest, i see kyabasu and creole covered them, just do a yahoo search for veteran rewards, it will take you right there. funny thing is, i didnt know wow didnt have vet rewards, but the funny thin is, when I searched it, i found a bunch of threads on their boards complaining that they didnt, we got a mention in a few of them as an example of vet rewards, Woo. also i noticed we got the most hits for vet rewards, probably due to the number of distinct pages we have dedicated to them.
also, heres anarchy online's one. http://www.anarchy-online.com/wsp/anarch...p;table=CONTENT

 

Posted

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SWG vet rewards.


I played MUDs that didn't have vet rewards but they did have preferred membership where those that paid more each month got access to more in game. I'd rather have vet rewards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, when I tested SWG years ago they didn't have such a thing

[/ QUOTE ]you know, i was surprised to find that that one mmo dosent have vet rewards, but apparently it causes some consternation on their forums even, but ultima online, tabula rasa, star wars galaxies, guild wars, and eq2 all have vet rewards. so yeah as i have been saying, it is a thing in the industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guild Wars does not have vet rewards, Neither does UO last time I checked (which was a year ago) and I didn't see any mention of them in EQ2's website. Provide links to the vet programs for these please. I'd like to see what they're doing with them.

I've been playing Guild Wars since early-mid beta and have never seen any sort of vet reward program and seeing as you don't pay monthly fees this isn't surprising in the least.

[/ QUOTE ]guild wars gives you a mini pet every year on your anniversery, i got a necrid horseman, havent claimed my second year yet, hoping i get a factions-style dragon, though back when i played regularly i saw that undead dragons got mad cash. as for the rest, i see kyabasu and creole covered them, just do a yahoo search for veteran rewards, it will take you right there. funny thing is, i didnt know wow didnt have vet rewards, but the funny thin is, when I searched it, i found a bunch of threads on their boards complaining that they didnt, we got a mention in a few of them as an example of vet rewards, Woo. also i noticed we got the most hits for vet rewards, probably due to the number of distinct pages we have dedicated to them.
also, heres anarchy online's one. http://www.anarchy-online.com/wsp/anarch...p;table=CONTENT

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A random birthday present on your characters birthday per character is hardly a vet reward program.

Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base

"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh

 

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As InfamousBrad said, if you've not gotten a door in the red zone on a lowbie, especially in Atlas, you might want to buy a few lottery tickets, because the odds are in your favor.

I've created three lowbie heroes in the last few weeks and all three got missions in the red zone at level 2 -- par for the course for me.

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That is the first place my new heroes get sent, to a red-zone far corner of the map! It is ridiculous.

It's in fact rare for them to get a mission which is within a half-mile.

And then they wonder why sewer teams form... no big surprises there. Although I really have to say, I don't much care for the sewers. Getting back to the sewers when you die can be problematic - you have to cross that zone, AGAIN, by yourself. Big fun.

CoV stomps all over CoH in this respect.

 

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As InfamousBrad said, if you've not gotten a door in the red zone on a lowbie, especially in Atlas, you might want to buy a few lottery tickets, because the odds are in your favor.

I've created three lowbie heroes in the last few weeks and all three got missions in the red zone at level 2 -- par for the course for me.

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That is the first place my new heroes get sent, to a red-zone far corner of the map! It is ridiculous.

It's in fact rare for them to get a mission which is within a half-mile.

And then they wonder why sewer teams form... no big surprises there. Although I really have to say, I don't much care for the sewers. Getting back to the sewers when you die can be problematic - you have to cross that zone, AGAIN, by yourself. Big fun.

CoV stomps all over CoH in this respect.

[/ QUOTE ] while i have learned to mitigate this through playstyle, this is very true. one thing i really woud like to see is once we get the extra people onboard, the coh early game,and the peregrine island content need a major redo. You havent got there yet, but the praetorian arc is basicly one long run of climactic battles in drab, boring backdrops. after seeing the castle seige map in mage killer's story arc there was very hard going back to forest map, star trek lab, and ruined city ad nauseum.

 

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because the sewers isn't content, and I don't know about you, but when I try out a new game, I want to see its content.

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That's a damn good point. With few exceptions, I've found the early game to be pretty bleh, whether I do sewer teams or not.

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Count me in favour of re-working some of CoH's early content. I don't mind some other content getting pushed back if it makes the game friendlier to new players.

Overall, it's not a hard game, but some of the biggest challenges you will face are in the first ten levels, and that's a mistake. New players are immediately thrown against Vahzilok, given missions deep in the Hollows at level 5, or deep within a forest maze in Perez Park at level 7.

Veteran players know how to deal with this, but new players don't.

 

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I'd rather see the vet rewards eliminated than watered down. They're not that great to start with.

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You can lose yours if you want, but I like mine. They make it a lot more comfortable to start up new characters.

MisterPiggins!

Comics Shaven Forums

 

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A random birthday present on your characters birthday per character is hardly a vet reward program.

[/ QUOTE ]its a reward only unlockable by playing for a pre-set period of time. thats a vet reward.

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Heh you're really reaching there on that definition but if it makes you happy knock yourself out

The few mmorpgs that have vet reward programs pretty much call them vet reward programs and have many things that you obtain over time broken into small increments from 1 day to coh's 3 months per. The only thing GW gives you is a random pet on your character's creation date. There are no rewards per month, day, week, year of ownership to reward loyal customers, only the pets. Hardly a veteran reward system.

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"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh

 

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A random birthday present on your characters birthday per character is hardly a vet reward program.

[/ QUOTE ]its a reward only unlockable by playing for a pre-set period of time. thats a vet reward.

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Heh you're really reaching there on that definition but if it makes you happy knock yourself out

The few mmorpgs that have vet reward programs pretty much call them vet reward programs and have many things that you obtain over time broken into small increments from 1 day to coh's 3 months per. The only thing GW gives you is a random pet on your character's creation date. There are no rewards per month, day, week, year of ownership to reward loyal customers, only the pets. Hardly a veteran reward system.

[/ QUOTE ]reaching? its a system that rewards players for playing for a specified period of time with items inacessable from any other gameplay situation, how exactly is that not the DEFINITION of a veteran reward program?

also, exactly ONE mmo from the list of far more than a "few" mmo's had a one day reward, everquest 2. of the rest 3 had rewards every 3 months(cox, swg and tabula rasa). of the others, anarchy online, ultima online, guild wars, and everquest 2 after the first year all go by yearly increments. So there is no rule they go by any set period of time, merely that they are exclusive items gated by time playing a game. and as such, yeah the mini-pets are vet rewards. cosmetic ones, like 95% of cox's ones, but vet rewards nonetheless.

 

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CoV stomps all over CoH in this respect.

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Actually, I've noticed that in CoV, the first Kalinda mission is almost always on the other side of Mercy Island. I think, out of at least fifteen villains I've started with Kalinda as a starting contact, maybe two of them had the mission close to her.

I prefer lowbie CoH because I can start in Galaxy City and small spawns there are easier to find. In Mercy Island, I often have to avoid all those huge hazard-spawn-sized groups when street-hunting.

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CoV stomps all over CoH in this respect.

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Actually, I've noticed that in CoV, the first Kalinda mission is almost always on the other side of Mercy Island. I think, out of at least fifteen villains I've started with Kalinda as a starting contact, maybe two of them had the mission close to her.

I prefer lowbie CoH because I can start in Galaxy City and small spawns there are easier to find. In Mercy Island, I often have to avoid all those huge hazard-spawn-sized groups when street-hunting.

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This is true, but compared to the Hollows it's a cakewalk. For level 2's, Mercy can be rough indeed.

MisterPiggins!

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