Why I Can't Convince My Friends to Play CoX
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-03-05 24:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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No argument here. I've been saying for weeks now, maybe months, that the single most important thing this game needs to do is to revamp the level 5-15 game almost from scratch. It's so massively inferior to the rest of the game that it has to be costing potential subscribers.
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Wow! Outstanding post InfamousBrad. (Didn't quote whole thing because of length.) I agree with your CoH vs CoV observations and would love to see some reworking of CoH based on them.
Welcome aboard.
Yes CoH, and really most MMOs worth playing, are very complicated and the people who have been playing them a while don't even realize it anymore.
Your best bets are:
1) Ask for help in broadcast. My experience has been that new players in CoH usua get buried in people trying to help them. When you get stuck ask for help or join someone who knows what they are doing. Without a mentor to get you going this game can be daunting.
2) Limit what you are doing. Avoiding Safeguards was a good move. There is always time to learn more.
3) Read everything. For example, The Hollows is a hazard zone, you aren't meant to fight there by yourself. The Frostfire mission tells you to bring help to fight him and it means it.
In some ways CoH is much simpler than other MMOs in that you don't have to find your mission on your own, which is a big help. A lot of your problems you would have with any MMO, everyone has to learn how to deal with them somewhere.
At least the players here are friendlier than games like WoW where asking newb questions is like giving people rocks to throw at you.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
Kudos to the OP, very well thought out and very eye-opening for some of us who have been here for so long and take for granted that everyone has had the same experience.
When I started, there was no Hollows, no difficulty slider, no vet rewards, no radio missions, no SupaTrolls, no badges, no loot, no reduced debt for indoor missions, no debt protection till level 10, no Pocket D, and no NPC stores in Kings Row.
A lot has changed in those early levels and, you're right, it may be time for the devs to re-examine the effects those changes have made in gaining new players.
Craft your inventions in AE!!
Play "Crafter's Cafe" - Arc #487283. A 1 mission, NON-COMBAT AE arc with workable invention tables!
I have concluded that we should be directing new players to CoV rather than CoH.
My only complaint with Veteran Rewards is attaching costume options to them. It's stupid that a brand new player is not permitted to make a Samurai, wear a trenchcoat or a kilt, cannot be a boxer, etc.
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Very good analysis, InfamousBrad. I agree with it completely. The devs greatly improved the newbie experience in CoV. It's too bad they won't do the same for CoH. It really is pretty mediocre in comparison.
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This is something that I think a lot of us old timers forget: it used to be so much harder way back when. We really did have to be determined to play this game. Even though CoH is much easier to play than most other MMOs, that's not really true of the early levels.
While I understand the rationale behind having people run through higher-level mobs to get to a mission door -- learning the safe aggro range and how to keep out of trouble -- that is definitely something that should be saved for later levels. I think that simplifying the initial experience to make it even easier isn't a bad idea. Smooth it out, then throw the newbies into the deep end.
Revamp the first contact and the initial story arc, add some more explanation as players experience that stuff (such as, "You don't have to do the Hollows missions if you don't want to") and *then* unleash a new marketing campaign to bring in new players.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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My only complaint with Veteran Rewards is attaching costume options to them. It's stupid that a brand new player is not permitted to make a Samurai, wear a trenchcoat or a kilt, cannot be a boxer, etc.
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I've always been against that, too, but c'est la vie.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Instead of saying "all you get for $10 is a crappy wedding set", you could argue that the pack is purely fluff, and not required. The really cool stuff comes in the form of "free" issues (meaning they cost no more than your monthly) every 3 months.
The vet rewards are really not much more than shiny stuff so old farts around here can have some 'bragging rights'. They don't elevate vets to super-super-heroes, but they get something as a small token to say 'thanks for the continued patronage' from the devs.
But perhaps the coolest thing about this game is that if you announced in global that you're new and are having trouble getting to your mish, more than one higher level person would show up to pound the bejeezus out of the purple cons to help you out. This is the only MMO I've seen where players don't constantly ask "what's in it for me?"
I ask that when people want me to "pad their mission for just a sec".
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This is something that I think a lot of us old timers forget: it used to be so much harder way back when. We really did have to be determined to play this game. Even though CoH is much easier to play than most other MMOs, that's not really true of the early levels.
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This is somewhat true. We had to face bosses in missions early on, prior to level 10. And Bone Daddies had Shadow Maul. It's something that gets easier with experience, but it was a bit rough for newer players. An annoyingly high percentage of missions were front loaded with nastiness.
For a long time the Hollows was a real trap. If you didn't follow the standard contacts in the 5-15 range and just stayed in the Hollows, you could find yourself with no active contacts at all after finishing up the Hollows stuff. Nowadays there are multiple ways to get back to standard contacts. This didn't affect me, since I was well familiar with the earlier levels by the time the Hollows came along, but I heard a lot of horror stories.
There was no respec trial available until Issue 2, and no freespec until Issue 3.
Still, even though I'm a casual player with no quest for an adrenaline rush, I was able to get used to the system fairly quickly. I was more frustrated with the lack of numbers and accurate descriptions in the powers than anything else. It's easy to find mission locations in this game. Trying to find missions often led me to a lot of frustration in other games.
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Also, there is a big difference between the top tier subscribers and the newer players as far as these rewards are received, thanks to that anticipation factor. You may not get the 60 month reward for 14 more months, but it doesn't bother you because you don't know what you're missing and no one else has it yet.
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Actually, I might just throw in the towel out of spite before getting the real-life pony reward at 72 months. It's not fair that I have wait so long.
Seriously, get over it. Enjoy the rewards as you get them instead of worrying about what other people are getting. Most of the rewards aren't that good anyway.
As for the other issues, asking other players or teaming with them might have helped your friends enjoy the game a lot more.
The game has gotten much more complicated since I started in August 2004. The formula for attracting friends though hasn't changed.
1. Play the game yourself for a few months so you know the 1-20 content fairly well.
2. Make a buffing defender (Force Fields, Empathy, Sonics). Take TP Friend so you cab port them to dangerous mission doors that you can get to with your experience and temp travel powers.
3. Have your friends make scrappers and tankers and ensure they choose their defensive powers at a reasonable level.
4. Buff your friends and run missions on heroic. They now can make silly mistakes and die less frequently because they have lots of hitpoints and good buffage. They will level faster, get lots of shiny powers, and enjoy the game. Later they can branch out to other archtypes and you don't have to buff them quite as religiously as they will have learned aggro mechanics.
PRTECTR4EVR
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No argument here. I've been saying for weeks now, maybe months, that the single most important thing this game needs to do is to revamp the level 5-15 game almost from scratch. It's so massively inferior to the rest of the game that it has to be costing potential subscribers.
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I agree with almost everything in this post. I made a similar complaint a long time back in Suggestions and my opinion hasn't changed.
First impressions count. The 5-15 game needs to be revamped to be "much better" than the rest of the game so as to retain trial players. Because this is what trial players see in two weeks.
* Unique tilesets for more of the 5-15 missions and unusual game objectives
* No more run to x dangerous place to kill n of y mobs.
* A clear path for new players to follow. Like the Burke->Geist->told to go to Port Oakes. Not "get thrown into the streets to a contact in some strange new zone, get there and get thrown to another contact in some strange new zone, then suddenly die"
I was trying to get a friend to play CoH and he was not being very impressed, nor did he intend to stay until he got to that initial contact mission where he had to get to a blinkie on top of a bunch of crates. He had no idea how to get up there until I showed him how to jump on different crates to the top.
"That's neat, a bit like Half-life or Deus Ex," he commented, and subscribed for a few months. He eventually left, but a minor little detail in a single mission can be crucial to whether a trial player stays or not.
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
I get the impression that you didn't really "inform" your friends about Vet rewards so much as you vented your dissatisfaction. No wonder they aren't enthused about playing the game if you're ranting about them negatively.
If you really want to get them interested, try a more positive approach and tell them about the things you find fun and enjoyable. Staying away from your personal negative bias towards secondary and supplemental aspects of the game might help too.
I just don't see the logic in someone refusing to play a game they might otherwise enjoy based on the vet reward system.
I don't get how developers caring about their long term subscribers is a bad thing, but then again, entitlement issues abound in our society. Guess that speaks a lot about human nature.
Nevermind that most new players I meet really don't give more than a "that's cool" or "awww, bummer" and move on when they hear/see some new vet reward thay can't have for x amount of months.
The game has gotten a lot more complex since most of us who have been around from the beginning started out. Really, at launch, the game was very linear in terms of content progression; now, new players are given several choices fairly early on, and some of these choices are clearly not as newbie-friendly as others. I'm looking at you, Wincott.
Back in the day, we dealt with a lot of frustrations like frontloading and bosses in standard-difficulty missions (since there was no other kind!), but I really think that they were preferable to the current newbie experience. The Hollows is a neat zone, but players should be referred to it by their second 5-10 contact, not the first one. By then, they probably understand that they can work for more than one contact at a time, and they'll be exposed to King's Row and know that they have a viable alternative to Wincott.
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I agree that none of the vet rewards are "game-breaking." That does not mean that are not "desirable." While I don't feel the need to have every single reward available instantaneously (I could care less about the boxing set, for example, and even the new pets look too freaky for me to want to use them), I would certainly enjoy having the base teleporter, at least one vetspec, the mech armor and belly shirt costume pieces, and maybe even the wings. These are all things that would enhance my game experience by fine-tuning the design of my character, resolving a mistake in power selection, and keeping up with my SG mates when running missions. But it's not even an option for me, and there's nothing I can do about it except wait. I'm learning to live with that for now, but that doesn't mean it's not rather disappointing.
Also, there is a big difference between the top tier subscribers and the newer players as far as these rewards are received, thanks to that anticipation factor. You may not get the 60 month reward for 14 more months, but it doesn't bother you because you don't know what you're missing and no one else has it yet. The top tier subscribers will usually receive the newest reward almost immediately after it is announced and released, and when they do, it is probably refreshingly new and fun to try and use. For newer subscribers, each announcement is a taunt of something they can't have and yet will see from other players over and over again so that by the time they get it, the value of the reward will be severely diminished.
Your mileage may vary, but I don't want to be taunted with a display of something I can't have for four years..... every three months. So I have to imagine this is a business model that will only get worse exponentially as it progresses until either new sign-ups disappear completely and the game perpetuates solely on currently existing customers until they all quit or die out...... or the system changes. It's not just about me -- it's the new customer base I'm concerned about.
Thank you for all the kind comments about the way I tried to compose this write-up. And I did take a MA/SR to 17, and I have a DM/Firey Brute at 24, but I just like the broadsword better for some reason.
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You should support my idea here . Specifically it references vet costumes, but it could be applied to the other rewards as well i suppose.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
this whole thread is tl;dr
None of my friends, even the ones who like comics, will play CoH. It's too counterintuitive, and the most common reaction I get is: "so...what else do you do, aside from fighting?"
To which I have no answer.
~Gabriel
I was pretty darned confused my first few days playing and I made tons of mistakes too, so I can empathize with you.
My advice would be to click on people's badge info and find someone with a 24+ vet reward...and ask them some questions.
The Hollows and Perez were made when street sweeping was the rage. They don't see much use anymore. It's better to start at Kings Row, get your Safeguard done (easier than it sounds, just head to the bank and clobber the bad guys and boss) and then get your jetpack.
It might not be a bad idea to sidekick to someone higher than you so you can get some help. Hell, roll a character on Champion server and global @Neuronia sometime and I'll help you myself.
Lastly, the Vet/WEdding thing is an approach thing. When my friends asked, I said they added a Wedding Pack, it was fluff but it was for the costume nuts and collectors. As to the vets, I just say they give fluff and some useful items if you keep playing. They aren't necessary to game play but are helpful (the attacks and Respecs).
I hope you stay and have some fun, it really is a very fun game.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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None of my friends, even the ones who like comics, will play CoH. It's too counterintuitive, and the most common reaction I get is: "so...what else do you do, aside from fighting?"
To which I have no answer.
~Gabriel
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I tell them there's exploration of zones and crafting to improve yourself. And PvP. Of course, the latter is just fighting of a different tack. 
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Totally agree with Aidalyn's statements.
I sense a lot of old-timers being put off by some of the statements, but I run across each of Aidalyn's issues every time I generate a new character. For a solo player like myself who plays sporadically and at odd hours, it's not always easy to team up with someone to take on a mission or two.
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Back in the day, we dealt with a lot of frustrations like frontloading and bosses in standard-difficulty missions (since there was no other kind!), but I really think that they were preferable to the current newbie experience.
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Good point. I hadn't thought of it that way.
Another thought to add to the mix, vis-a-vis the old versus new newbie experience: The over-arching context of MMORPGs was different, and thus, the audience (players) may have been more tolerant of frustration. WoW, if memory serves, hadn't been launched yet, and MMOs were much moreso a niche market. Back then, CoH, even with all of its warts, was about the most casual-friendly game going (and still is, IMO).
Nowadays, I don't think it's terribly constructive to point out that most other MMOs make you jump through far more hoops, make you endure far more needless annoyances and timesinks. A new player has far less reason to bow to that sort of logic; either it's fun to play, or it isn't.
This is the only game I think I've ever heard of which becomes orders of magnitude easier in the later levels -- and that's from a purely mechanical perspective. The least the devs could do is smooth out the low-level content so that there are fewer frustrations for the uninitiated. CoV is much better, but there's still room for improvement there, too.
About the only complaint with which I'd disagree in the OP is his comment with respect to content updates. CoH has received an absolutely enormous amount of free content updates since launch. The wedding pack, as others have pointed out, was more an experiment than anything, and nothing offered in the wedding pack influences actual gameplay, as far as I know. It's purely fluff, unless you just absolutely have to have one of the costume pieces for a character concept.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I can completely relate on the overwhelming feeling as a new player , just to many things going on with the enhancements, maps, knowing which train goes where etc. but its just like any other game they just have to give it a shot.
I mainly can't get most of my friends to try it out because they are stuck on consoles and can't fathom the idea of using a keyboard instead of a controller.
I'd recommend that as a first toon they use a blaster or scrapper , this way they feel "powerful" and can confront a Lt. 1 lvl above them without dying that quickly until they get the hang of it
GL and happy hunting
I've posted this before in other areas of the board and am posting it here because it seems fitting
Vet Reward Solution
The vet rewards seem to really rub many people the wrong way and do discourage some new players and frustrate other mid-length players, especially in the costume department where specific ideas can't quite be realized until you've gotten said rewards. This is a visually appealing game and people put great stock into how their Characters look.
The Solution is to have a variation on every vet reward that is given to every player, with the fancier version being given to the vet.
<ul type="square">[*] 3 Month Trenchcoats: All Players Normal Tail / Vets get Split tail and Ragged Tail.[*] 6 Month Greek Alphabet: All Players lowercase / Vets get upper & lowercase[*] 9 Month Belly Shirt & Kilt: All players belly shirt & formal kilt / Vets get an alternate pattern belly shirt & formal/war kilt.[*] 12 Month Prestige Sprints / Melee weapon / Base Items: All Players 1 sprint, weaker axe/sands (3 hits for sands instead of 5 etc), 1 sci fi, magic, tech, enemy weapon display / Vets get all 4 sprints, full str attacks, all base items.[*] 15 Month Wings: All Players angelic & demon wings / Vets get Alternate Pattern Angelic Wings & Demon Wings (torn, spiky feathers, glow or fire on them, something slightly fancier)[*] 18 Month Samurai Armor: All Players 1 style of armor / Vets get all 3 styles.[*] 21 Month Shoulder Capes: All Players Should capes / Vets get some extra shoulder cape patterns.[*] 24 Month Base Transporter & base posters: All Players base transporter & 2 posters/ Vets get Base Transporter on faster refresh & all posters & titles.[*] 27 Month Anime Style Armor: All Players anime armor / Vets get anime armor & fancier pattern anime armor.[*] 30 Month Signature Group Logos & Signature Items: All Players 2 good 2 bad of each/ / Vets get All items.[*] 33 Month Ranged Weapon: All Players weaker & smaller ranged items Nemesis Rod & Blackwand wand. / Vets get Full powered version also.[*] 36 Month Non Combat Pet: All Players a specific pet (like cherub) / Vets get additional Choice of pets[*] 39 Month Boxing Outfit: All Players boxing outfit / Vets get Alternate pattern outfits + neck towel.[*] 42 Month Assemble the Team: All Players assemble team power longer recharge / Vets get same power faster recharge & quicker activation.[*] 45 Month Respec: All Players freespec / Vets get respec & costume tokens.[*] 48 Month Buff Pet: All Players a specific buff pet (target drones) / Vets get choice of 4 different types in addition to the target drone. Pets mutually exclusive can't have more then one out of any type of buff pet.[/list]
You basically give a basic version of the same thing to the playerbase and fancier versions for the vets with a few more perks but not total exclusivity to them. This lets the vets get something a bit fancier then the normal player but still lets the normal player get something too and not felt left out, then when they get to that time they get the fancier versions.
Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base
"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
Very good analysis, InfamousBrad. I agree with it completely. The devs greatly improved the newbie experience in CoV. It's too bad they won't do the same for CoH. It really is pretty mediocre in comparison.