Why do the devs hate COV?
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-06 17:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The only annoying discrepancy I see between the two sides is that the Hero accolades for +end and +HP are easier to get. Requiring things like Deathless, Unbreakable, and Annihilator (not so much for the difficulty of getting it, more for the fact it effectively limits the villain version of Atlas Medallion to level 45+) compared to their Heroic counterparts is a bit frustrating.
That aside, there's plenty of workable content for both sides. Yes, it might be nice to see a bit more villain-exclusive content (hey, we have all these neat islands, surely we can make lots of interesting maps on them?) but there are several things on the CoH side that really need updated and have needed updating for quite a while.
Eh, this thread needs to be quietly strangulated and buried.
Masterminds annoy everybody, sooner or later. Heck, Masterminds annoy themselves.
-ShadowsBetween
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We have a few shared zones with most zones being for one faction only, while they have only a few faction only zones with most being shared.
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So the division between "they're the same game" and "they're seperate" is an entirely arbitrary count or percentage of shared zones?
I applaud your willingness to admit this is totally arbitrary.
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Applaud my willingness to state why *I* don't see them as one game and won't until it meets the requirements I stated above. Nowhere did I say *you* have to see it that way.
What I was trying to point out was that in WoW both factions are part of the same exact world, not kept separate except for a few zones.
I applaud your attempt to put words in my mouth though.
Edit: typo, too bad it's been quoted. 
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We have a few shared zones with most zones being for one faction only, while they have only a few faction only zones with most being shared.
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So the division between "they're the same game" and "they're seperate" is an entirely arbitrary count or percentage of shared zones?
I applaud your willingness to admit this is totally arbitrary.
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Applaud my willingness to state why *I* don't see them as one game and won't until it meets the requirements I stated above. Nowhere did I say *you* have to see it that way.
What I was trying to point out was that in WoW both factions are pert of the same exact world, not kept separate except for a few zones.
I applaud your attempt to put words in my mouth though.
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Someone mentioned in the thread(don't feel like looking for the quote), that Positron mentioned they are one game. If he did say that, does it really matter if you consider them one game or not? Not trying to be rude, but if the devs consider them one, then really anybody else's opinion on the matter(myself included) is pretty worthless.
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To me they would only be the same game if any of my characters, hero and villain, could enter almost every zone. That's the way it is in WoW.
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Wow is FAR more PvP-oriented than here, and that design decision supports that move.
Wouldn't really be in-line with this game's casual PvE focus, would it? Either every zone would have to be PvP-permit co-op, which would change the focus of the game entirely, or every zone would feature villains running by heroes yet unable to touch them. Odd.
In any case, while that's a very arbitrary feature to pick as "the defining factor" or whether or not this game is or isn't a two-faction single game, it is one point of view.
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Just another reason not to use WoW as an example of comparison for CoX. But then, I didn't use that as an example first, did I?
PvP-permit co-op would be more true to comics than what we now have, actually. One can play WoW and never engage in PvP, there's no reason it couldn't hold true here also. Plus, I don't see how seeing the opposing faction run by and not being able to touch them is any different than both sides attending a party in Pocket D or teaming in a shared zone. Odd.
Yep, it's one view, combined with the fact that I can play either side of the game and never enter a PvP or shared zone and not see, let alone deal with, the opposing player faction makes me see it as two games instead of one.
I still stand by the fact that if one truly believes this is one game then there is no reason at all to begrudge an issue devoted to one side or the other. I've yet to see those that state it's one game also say they'd have no problem with that. Of course, they'd have to have no problem with it being red only and not just blue only.
So, if the devs don't see something as broken but players do why do so many players continue to post about it? Their opinion doesn't matter, only the devs do.
By the same token, if the devs feel CoV needs some love and devoted the next 3 issues to it we can all appreciate their opinion and leave it at that because our opinion is worthless.
Sorry, I took the red pill. 
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So, if the devs don't see something as broken but players do why do so many players continue to post about it? Their opinion doesn't matter, only the devs do.
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The players feel better after they partake of a fine domestic whine?
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Actually, I've followed a few of the recent threads about CoV as far as my tolerance for ridiculous forum antics would allow, and don't seem to recall so much sentiment about how "CoV sucks." I do seem to recall plenty of people stating honest, well-thought-out reasons why they don't prefer to play on the redside, ranging from personal preference for heroic characters, the graphics intensive nature of the zones, and the general dismal aesthetic appeal, but I can't recall anyone just flat-out posting something like "CoV sucks."
So, really, if you can show me at least three posts like you describe then I'll back down. Otherwise I'll continue to believe it's a part of your delusional victimization fantasy.
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Sweetie, I'm not obligated to lead you by the hand and find each and every post re the subject, print it off in 6"-high letters and shove it under your nose so you can finally find it.
This isn't really about past statements which have been posted many times in public for all to see anyways, you just dislike what I'm saying and this is all an attempt to throw the argument onto a side track. Not playing, thanks; nor does your namecalling mean anything whatsoever to me. You'll have to work a bit harder than that, I'm afraid.
My point here is that you're attempting to manipulate reality, but your saying that "no inequities exist" does not erase said inequities, despite what you may think.
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someone else: Despite your complete lack of any solid argument here, your statement that *I* somehow CAN point to something from I8-I11 as being "build especially for CoV" is flatly absurd, on many levels.
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Mender Tesseract's TF. It was made for villains. I'll say it again: THE MENDER TESSERACT TF WAS MADE FOR VILLAINS AND VILLAINS ONLY. Heroes can't do it.
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Don't worry, sweetie. Next issue or perhaps even sooner, this content will be 'ported to blueside. It'll completely suck when it is - much as Safeguards completely and absolutely suck when compared to Mayhems - but you can bet your bottom dollar that heroes will get this content, if at least three of them start wailing about unfairness.
Just like how the STF would be instantly fixed if it had buggy NPCs in it, whereas the LRSF's Technician has been bugged for over a year [?] with no fix in sight.
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I'd also like to make it known that I've played both sides of this game, and while the villains I have will probably eventually play through the RWZ arcs, I AGREE that having villains get the same contacts and missions in the RWZ was contrived. It takes a great suspension of disbelief to accept that a brutish beast with the blood of a thousand Longbow soldiers on his hands would be welcomed with open arms by the Vanguard. Having no screening process is an invitation for total disaster in my book. I personally think that the proper way to do the RWZ would be to have Arachnos make its own organization to counter the Rikti threat and then enter into a(n uneasy) truce with the Vanguard to better coordinate earth's defense.
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My disdain for the RWZ is not related to Vanguard, or even villains and heroes working together, which they have done many times if the threat be big enough.
My disdain is with both sides running THE EXACT SAME MISSIONS. That is lame, it is stupid, and its pretty hilarious when my villains who will cross an entire Archipelago to flatten one Longbow Warden are told to go rescue three Longbow Officers who have attitude-problems to begin with. Yeah, that could happen.
What you'd *really* get would be three more dead Longbow, but whatever.
I would have just as big a problem with a blue only update. It would still screw a portion of the player base, and with an expanded dev team, and more exp under their belt, there is no reason to do it that way.
Slanting a few issues to help red side catch up is just a far better idea, and a better business plan.
Also I don't recall anyone posting that there should be blue only updates, perhaps in the flame storm that was i7, but not in a long, long time. Even at my most pissed, I only ever said 50/50. With good arguments and points my opinion changed to 60/40 or even 70/30.
Personally all I really look forward to in updates are the costumes, Powers, and Power Customization. New IOs are cool too if they are costume recipes 
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I still stand by the fact that if one truly believes this is one game then there is no reason at all to begrudge an issue devoted to one side or the other. I've yet to see those that state it's one game also say they'd have no problem with that. Of course, they'd have to have no problem with it being red only and not just blue only.
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That's a contradiction in terms. If it's one game, there is no "side" to devote an issue too. Which is my point. You develop and support the game.
Personally, I don't ever want to see an issue like Issue 7 or 8 again. In fact, I also would not like to see any issue of CoX EVER again feature "exclusive" content for either side. By "exclusive" I don't mean story arcs and task/strike forces. I mean more zone revamps and such.
I like that Ouroboros has different content for those of a villainous bent. However, IMO, removing the false separation and allowing people to do whatever content meets their own personal moral compass would be much preferable.
People who like being the bad guy should have content for them. But so should people who want to be the good guy. And people who want to be the neutral, out for self guy.
The problem with this post and many others is that they ignore the last group as if they didn't exist. People should be able to do whatever content floats their boat. And we need a faction system to facilitate that.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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(Hey, Look, Zyph, I found the correct thread!)
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It's a sad situation for those piecemeal players - new players coming in under the new "full game" bundle offer aren't going to buy into the illusion of two games - just like most other faction MMOs, they're going to see it as what it is; a 2 faction MMO. So the ranks of the piecemeal players, while they will inevitably grow because there are bound to be players who prefer one side to the other, they won't "swell" with the overall game pop, they're always going to be a fringe voice.
And there's usually nothing wrong with being a fringe voice, but in this case the fringe is centerred on a point of view that the devs don't share, namely, that of villain faction being "it's own game" and more deserving of singular attention in order to "catch up" with the other portion, rather than the whole product, with a dash of the strange yet tenacious idea that the devs "hate", or in any case are assigning a personal emotion, to some of their paying subscribers.
But the devs have moved away from that idea. They update the game as a whole and content becomes more and more focused on things shared by both sides - which piecemeal players see not as a boon to both but as a slight to one... becuase their insistance on two seperate games sees one of those games starting with more content and the other with less, rather than one product with "a lot".
The more time goes by, the more firmly "whole" the game becomes, but honestly the nail was put in the coffin with the bundled full-access release - at least in the former state of things a player clinging to only a portion of the game could say "I can't afford the rest".
Now it devolves to personal preference, and you can see a lot of that motivation in this thread, which had a large portion of its thesis devolve to "I don't like the way the RWZ storyline interacts with my RP decisions" - a valid point, but hardly a game-driving issue.
The more time passes, the harder it is going to be for piecemeal players to light a fire of concern under anyone's rear that the portion of the game they choose to limit themselves to is more deserving of new content or changes than the product as a whole.
Happily, inevitably, new content will inevitably fall to that portion of the game as they update the entire product, so in the process of pleasing the overall population they will unavoidably please at least some of those who play in certain areas - I am certain until we reach an undefinable par between the two concocted "sides" we'll see regular updates about how the devs "hate" some of the subscribers, but I don't think anyone takes that histrionic stuff seriously.
I do find this issue terribly interesting before. I've never encountered a similiar situation in another MMO, in which the product was complete only after the core design had been used as a living market test: it's allowed people to cling to one portion or the other while insisting it is its own distinct game unlike any other MMO I've seen. Eager to see how that ends up in watch-the-trainwreck sort of way.
As an afterthought: When it comes to piecemeal players, I think they represent an imprtant concern even if they are a fading breed - they represent a concern for maintaining strict flavor differences in factions, which is good in any game. There's a great urge to start off posts such as this with things like "Why do they HATE US!?!?" - silly in the extreme, naturally, and it sees people laugh off what might have at its core a valid point only because of a facile and simple minded/overdramatic summary - but then it;s followed by others shaking their heads and saying "See? We just can't get any dialogue started - we get heckled..."
No, it's not "you" that gets heckled, it's stuff like the OP - the idea that the devs hate a portion of paying customers is laughable. No use getting irate that no one will take it seriously.
However, when we see things like "I don't feel that the red side story lines cater enough to a villainous flavor" and "RWZ seems to cast a lot of the feel of being a villain aside entirely" - then *those* are some valid and good points. They need to be seen. Nothing wrong with giving a nod to evil.
I feel bad for piecemeal players being represented by stuff like the OP. There are valid flavor issues in both factions, they deserve to be heard, not buried under a pile of giggles.
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Makes probably the most sense in this entire thread.
Many people want redside improvements, but dont see it as "teh devz hayt us!!!11oneoneone"
But the "devs hate us" threads start up the jokes that are told a LOT in-game, such as "lol theyll give us new EATs, then make them better and put them into COH" (which is a direct reference to LRSF and STF), or "theyll nerf the bejeezus out of them, then tell us theyre more powerful, while people say heroside that we should shut up about it" (patron powers). That brings in the "villain side doesnt need anything, stop exaggerating" talk, and away it goes.
For what its worth, although I voice my opinion almost every time the issue arises, I dont see it as "devs hate us! why dont they give us stuff???!!!"
I dont want EITHER side left out, but things need to be fixed in COV, and most of the banter seems to be "fix blasters/more COH zones/tank powersets" etc., when the tech in the RSF is bugged- causing 50%+ restart rate, no Epic ATs, no new villain zones, no new TFs, patron powers both weak AND unrespeccable, etc. since I7.
So I'll always chime in when someone says "Nuh- uh, [one or more of the above] isnt true. waaaaa"
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I still stand by the fact that if one truly believes this is one game then there is no reason at all to begrudge an issue devoted to one side or the other. I've yet to see those that state it's one game also say they'd have no problem with that.
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The only logical conclusion I can draw from that is that you have me on ignore, then. I wish the forum software would tell me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The devs hate everyone equally. Especially Tankers
Sorry Sam, I might have missed it. I stand corrected, but you're one of a very few.
I'm trying to keep up and take care of real life stuff. I have to go out again and by the time I get back they'll be a dozen or more posts.
I'm kind of playing Devil's advocate here.
I don't care if there's a blue only update, as long as there's nothing the red side needs before that happens. One game or two, the red side needs some attention. And I disagree with you on exclusive content. I think the red side needs more, not less, to draw in more players there.
Ugh, got to go out, more later.
Edit: Out, got to go out. I laughed when I realized how that sounded.
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CoV needs about 8 new zones covering all levels from probably 10 onwards. The new zones should have no links to the Destined One storyline and be more focussed on some of the other mysteries around the Rogue Isles or some alternate storylines.
At the same time, heroes will get some new stuff too. It's just how these things work and neither side should be jealous of what the other side gets.
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Sorry Sam, I might have missed it. I stand corrected, but you're one of a very few.
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No sweat. That was said in a moment of weakness, as I really should be going to bed.
I just feel that any addition to the game on any side is good for the game as a whole. Granted, further additions to heroes when they already have enough to have almost two fully distinct paths is a bit redundant, considering villains don't even have enough for one. But in the end, whichever side gets it, it's still good in my book.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Whew, this thread is getting to be quite a long read. But now that I've caught up, a few things I'd like to say.
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And there should NOT be an alternate version created for the other side, such as Safeguards to compare to Mayhem Missions.
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I said it before: It was the heroes who cried about I7 that make it so that now, neither side can get good, unique content. You spoiled it for everyone else. Now all we can get is half-[censored] shared content becuase "it's all one game anyway".
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I don't see it that way at all. I see it as part of the Dev's vision for the game as a whole to make things FUN. FUN is what this game is supposed to be about. If one side has something that's fun, what justification is there for keeping that restricted to just that side? Why not share the love? Likewise, if development time, effort, and resources were not an issue, we'd probably have villainous EATs by now. It's just simply selfish to want to keep something like Mayhems/Safeguards exclusive to "your side" and deny it to the other side, when the alternative is to let everyone enjoy it no matter what side they choose to play.
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Finally, as for the straw man that blue siders as so font of bringing up - that they don't want to see a full CoV dedicated issue.. NOBODY HAS BEEN SUGGESTING IT.
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Okay.
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Terra, would you support that additions from this point on that left the current "blue side" exactly as is while updating only red side?
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But wait... didn't you just say...? 
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If CoV and CoH really are just one in the same to some of you, then why are you fighitng so hard against more CoV specific features?
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If you mean CoV-specific features like new PVE zones, villainous EATs, more villain-side strike forces, and the like, then my response is: We are? Are we? No, I don't think we are.
If you mean CoV-specific content like the above-cited Mayhem/Safeguard example, then refer to my above response.
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Sweetie, I'm not obligated to lead you by the hand and find each and every post re the subject, print it off in 6"-high letters and shove it under your nose so you can finally find it.
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Okay. You're not obligated. But it does nothing to convince me that this posting history of which you speak is largely a fabrication.
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My point here is that you're attempting to manipulate reality, but your saying that "no inequities exist" does not erase said inequities, despite what you may think.
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Here is where I laugh, because I see this as plain hypocrisy to accuse me of trying to manipulate reality, then attribute a a statement I've not expressed in any form to me in the same breath.
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Don't worry, sweetie. Next issue or perhaps even sooner, this content will be 'ported to blueside. It'll completely suck when it is - much as Safeguards completely and absolutely suck when compared to Mayhems - but you can bet your bottom dollar that heroes will get this content, if at least three of them start wailing about unfairness.
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That's sarcasm, right? Because I don't see how anyone could honestly believe that.
This thread is moving on to more constructive discussion. Posters like Emnity and BillZ are coming up with a lot of fair-minded arguments why the premise of the OP simply isn't true. Conspiracy theories aren't relevant here anymore, because the premise they're resting on has already been shot so full of holes that it looks like swiss cheese.
Swiss cheese? Then why is it the devs keep dodging the questions the red side has? I recall posi and his weak reply on patrons. PPP willbe more powerful then EPP.
What game was he talking about? And his reply to Epics in pvp, "oh our stat sheet shows villains win RV more then heroes". Wth kind of reply is that?? That shows little to no effort to fix things villainside.
The Devs aren't going to respond to people calling them out. Not only that, given the amount of bickering in this thread, I'd be shocked to see them touch this topic with a 10-foot pole. The only redname activity I expect to see here is eventually locking the thread if it spirals downwards far enough.
If I wanted to know what was up with the PPP's, I'd make a thread to ask about it that didn't try to accuse the Devs of any wrongdoing or dishonesty. I don't care if people feel it's justified, coming off like you're blaming them for something or misattributing behavior to them is an easy way to get them to ignore your topic.
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If I wanted to know what was up with the PPP's, I'd make a thread to ask about it that didn't try to accuse the Devs of any wrongdoing or dishonesty. I don't care if people feel it's justified, coming off like you're blaming them for something or misattributing behavior to them is an easy way to get them to ignore your topic.
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Ahem.
The thread linked above was started a year or more ago. It started out without any accusations on the part of the devs. It was asking a question. To this date there have been ZERO red name replies.
Reason being they don't have the answers. So how can they reply?
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Reason being they don't have the answers. So how can they reply?
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I don't even want answers so much as I'd like to know their thoughts on the issue. Do they see a problem? In their estimation, have PPPs worked out the way they'd intended? Is it something they feel is fine, or something they'd like to change? Do they believe the powers are more powerful, or was that... pre-release excitement speaking?
Basically, I'd just some communication on the issue, so those of us who dislike the PPPs, for whatever reason, can start some kind of dialogue on the issue.
If their opinion is, "They're fine, we like them as-is," then that lets the players know, "Okay, don't hope for a change, but try to rustle up some data showing that they (at least) need a buff." If their opinion is "We're looking at revising the system," then that gives us some cause for hope.
I think I've said this in other threads, but one thing I really, really like about this game is the level of interaction we have with the developers. It's much better than WoW's (or SWG, back when I played that) go-between system ("I'll bring it to their attention and maybe you'll get a patch in six months") or FFXI's... no-between system ("we don't care, we're going to leave it this way, now be quiet").
The continued silence on the PPPs just... I just think our devs are better than that. It disappoints me, I guess. If I saw a response that said, "Look, we think we made a mistake with setting PPPs up this way, but we're going to try to fix it," I would be ecstatic. My response wouldn't be "I told you so, you suck," my response would be, "Great! Thank you! How can I help?"
The silence is just... disheartening.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
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Terra, would you support that additions from this point on that left the current "blue side" exactly as is while updating only red side?
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I don't know about Terra, but I'd say no. Even though I'm predominantly a red-sider.
Mostly because then psycho/irrational/emo-blue siders would pop out of the woodwork like some red-siders in this thread have.
Villain side DOES need some work. There is no denying that. But making the IDIOTIC, IRRATIONAL, BASELESS accusation that the devs hate the red side will not get anything done.
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I'll take Bill's answer on this. And yes there are plenty of angsty emo blue siders as well.
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But it is a different Emo, more of a "Why can't we all get along" /e cries, and less "I hate you all!" /e sulks. J/K please do not eat my first born. ok you can have the first born, just not the other 3.
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