Why do the devs hate COV?
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-06 17:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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But the executable is the same, right? its just a question of which flags are set and which data you downloaded.
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Ok, so by that definition, all games using the same engine are the same game. Using one .exe I can run Doom, Doom 2, Heretic, Hexen, Hexen's expansion pack, and Strife.
They're all the same game!
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From one point of view, yep.
However, CoH share lots of resource, the same engine and the same executable. Its really just the account that determines what you can do on it.
The thing is, CoV and CoH are neither true standalone games as is, nor is either of them just an expansion pack. They two incoplete peices that together form CoX. Which I think is just fine.
Now, is it time for Cov to get some new good villainy content? sure thing. In fact, as far as I am concerned the next 2 issues or so could be predominately be Villains content and I'd be happy. And with all the new money and Devs, I feel confident that we will see an increase in content quantity and quality that should be able to to keep most people happy.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
Once again, people fail to realize the "seperate but combined" games aspect is hardly new to CoV, nor does it make the individual games any less complete by themselves.
World of Xeen.
Sonic 3 and Knuckles.
etc. etc.
Access to heroes or villains is based on the account not the game program. Remember, we upgrade or add the codes to our accounts.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
It seems to me that apparent "problem" here has nothing to do with the devs at all. NOR the players. The fundamental issue is that being a villain and being a hero require entirely different motives and personalities. Let's break it down:
Sure, a mission structure is nice. But let's be honest, as a villain, you're working toward your OWN agenda, not that of your "contacts".
In fact, to truly be a villain-based game, all zones should be PvP. While villains may occasionally team up to further their own ends, generally speaking, they fly solo by nature. So the very idea of a villain "MMO" is problematic.
Infamy? Give me a break. Where's the cash? Influence may suffice for do-gooders, but villains aren't going to buy ALL their technological (biological etc.) upgrades on reputation alone. Unless maybe they went on a mission to STEAL it??
And while I realize that the villains in the Isles are actually "supervillains", not the small-time evildoers that make Paragon their home, why the heck are they settling for these decrepit islands? Siren's Call, you say? I'm pretty sure I could find another way to immigrate illegally. TRUST me.
Anyhow, the point is not that CoV is crappy or needs more attention. The point is that we have to accept it for what it is: an extension of a pre-existing game, City of Heroes. It will, therefore, use the same contact/mission/influence/teaming format because it is straightforward and easy to play. Sure, it would be "cool" if all CoV were PvP to keep the realism. But without the story content, I might get pretty bored.
I'm a fan of both CoH and CoV, and will continue to hit up both the red or the blue on any given day, depending on my mood. At least, either way, I'm gonna smash some heads in.
"Begin with the End in mind" - Covey
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Arc #15364 Frostfire's Plea
More like separate but overlapping.
Here's the Amazon description:
City of Villains requires a subscription to play online. Subscribers to both City of Villains and City of Heroes will have only a single subscription fee to have full access to both games. Those who subscribe to both games will receive four additional character slots per game server, and access to crossover areas from both games such as player-versus-player zones in City of Villains. Additionally, City of Heroes players who subscribe to both games will have access to the base building and base raids featured in City of Villains.
The description at the NCSoft store, which still lists the CoV box for sale:
City of Villains® is the standalone sequel to critically acclaimed MMORPG City of Heroes®. <snipped description>
IMPORTANT: Players who have purchased both City of Heroes® and City of Villains®® can play them both for a single subscription fee.
A game that does not need a pre-requiste game to play it, and is a complete game in and of itself, is a stand alone game, not an expansion. I've been playing MMORPGs long enough to know this.
I'm wondering, if someone only had CoV before they gave us the other half free, or someone that buys only CoV after that promotion ends, did/do they not get access to the crossover zones?
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Conversely, what I find sad is that some people can't wrap their minds around the fact that CoV is a standalone game, because it's thinking that's outside their box.
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Where is the evidence for it being a stand alone game?
Even if you only ever bought COV you can still interact with players from COH in the 4 PVP zones, Pocket D and the Arena. That right there shoots any claim that the game is stand alone in the foot.
I'll grant you that it was a marketing goof to give any impression that the game was purely stand alone. It should always have been made clear that it was an expansion for COH that could be played with out buying COH.
But your are deluding yourself by clinging to the claim that COV is or ever has been a stand alone game.
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Wow, do you have that [censored]-backwards. Where's your proof that it's nothing more than an expansion? The fact that a person can buy City of Villains and go home and install it, without ever installing CoH, and then can play it, without ever playing CoH, proves it's a stand alone game.
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They are the same game. Same engine. Same graphic items installed, whether they're *used* or not. Specific *features* are unlocked by a serial code.
Proof?
I could (provided I could find them now) buy a COH-only box, a COV-only box, and GVE. Create three accounts. Apply one code to each, and on the same machine, same installation, have three "different games." (Well, two.)
They're less games than - "Feature sets," I suppose would be the best way of putting it. Different skins on the same core.
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Bull.
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an expansion that you could play without the main game
[/ QUOTE ] is NOT an expansion, it's a stand alone game. What part of that don't you understand?
Plus, the official store SAYS it's a "Stand-alone title" I suppose NCSoft and Cryptic (since they developed it) are deluded too?
You can still buy CoV without having to by GvE.
No one has to go out of their way to avoid the other side, in fact, you have to go out of your way to come in contact with the other side. Jeez, you aren't even worth talking to you can't understand simple English.
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::facepalm::
Sadly you are mistaken. What part of the marketing for it was screwed up don't you understand.
Yes that whole bit about it being stand alone didn't last 2 months past launch. The fact that they still list it that way on the PlayNC store website is probably a tactical error on their part. I suspect that the copy for that hasn't been revised since November of 2005.
Look inspite of your claim the games are really only one game and are handled as such by the development team. You holler and argue all you want but if the developers don't think of them as separate things then it doesn't matter. To best best achieve your goals you need to recognize reality and work with it. And that reality is that this is one game not two.
Now within that structure there is room for improvements and they have been mentioned repeatedly in this and other threads.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
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And as long as you can install only CoV, and have an account with only CoV, and get a character from 1 to 50 in only CoV, it's a stand alone game.
Regardless of whether or not it shares an engine and servers. How could it not? It was an expansion to CoH owners. It'd have to share the engine and servers for it to be that to CoH. If it didn't, it would never be an expansion at all, which is how I'm wishing now that they'd made it.
The insane notion that these two games are only flavors of one game has given us the problems we're arguing about in this threat. It is *THE* reason why CoV gets ignored. The devs don't feel any pressing urgency to fix the game of City of Villains becuase they refuse to accept that it even exists. Since it's JUST an addition of CoH they can ignore any updates it needs like any OTHER expansion of CoH. It's already been released, it's done, it's time to look to the future.
F that logic, and anyone who believe it (Positron included).
I'll keep saying it until you people understand it: New content is needed where content is lacking, not where content is abundant.
CoV needs attention focused on it. It was billed and sold as a fully, complete, independent game, no matter how much idiots like Terra try to whitewash it now.
To put the FINAL cap on this argument: Even if you believe that it really is nothing but the villain half of ONE SHARED GAME, you must accept that as the villain HALF of one shared game, the entire game itself is not whole until the content gap has been eliminated.
Everyone arguing that they are just one game should, right now, if they have any intellectual honesty to their own stance, be requesting that the next few updates to THEIR ONE GAME focus entirely on bringing CoV up to the same content level of CoH. After all, if it's JUST ONE GAME you're getting the exact same amount of content anyway.
Grasping at straws.
As far as what Posi says? He can say what he wants, as Statesman before him did. Doesn't make it true, anymore than believing that everything Statesman said was true.
But, if Posi wants to make that claim, he should also back it up with a statement that since it is one game, an issue devoted to villain side is an issue that everyone can enjoy. Haven't seen him do that, have you? I doubt you will, because then he'd have to back that up and most of you won't let him.
Oh, and if you can disregard printed facts, like game descriptions put out by the manufacturer, because ignoring them suits your slant, then I can ignore anything a dev says if it's not backed up by proof. Just saying.
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Everyone arguing that they are just one game should, right now, if they have any intellectual honesty to their own stance, be requesting that the next few updates to THEIR ONE GAME focus entirely on bringing CoV up to the same content level of CoH. After all, if it's JUST ONE GAME you're getting the exact same amount of content anyway.
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No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I do not want them to equal it out by numbers.
I want what is needed added. If MMs need some loving, give them some loving. If scrappers need some loving, give them some loving. If level 1-5 villains need new leveling paths (and they do, boy do they) give them some new leveling paths.
I do not want this to be about X items on one side = X items on the other.
Villains in general need some loving. There are particular spots in villains that need it most. There are a lot of spots that are dependent on the personal preferences of players.
Demanding 18 months of villain content without hero content in some attempt to be equal is not going to happen and nor should it. Demanding some X amount of villain tweaks to be even with heroes isn't going to happen and nor should it.
Asking for what villains need so it could happen is what should be done. Forget the "we need it cuz they got it" angle. It's distracting.
We need to focus on what our villains need whether we play villains only or heroes and villains. I have no idea what input if any a heroes only person would have in that debate unless they PvP or co-op with villains.
I want more paths for 1-5 for villains because I am sick of Kalinda and Burke not because the hero side gives me 5 (or 10 depending on whether you count AP/GC as different) paths. I am sick of them because it's not enough choices.
Remember villains have some of the best stuff in the game and I don't think giving them to heroes is desirable but it is logical with a "make us equal" argument. You don't feed one child to make up for the older child being around longer and getting more food. You feed each according to their needs.
Villains needs some more "food" to grow for its own sake not because heroes is bigger.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
And you guys want a dev to respond in this thread? Every time I respond here I grab my turnout gear incase something I said pisses some one off.
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Well, Zyph, you're not trolling like Terra keeps doing.
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Conversely, what I find sad is that some people can't wrap their minds around the fact that CoV is a standalone game, because it's thinking that's outside their box.
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Where is the evidence for it being a stand alone game?
Even if you only ever bought COV you can still interact with players from COH in the 4 PVP zones, Pocket D and the Arena. That right there shoots any claim that the game is stand alone in the foot.
I'll grant you that it was a marketing goof to give any impression that the game was purely stand alone. It should always have been made clear that it was an expansion for COH that could be played with out buying COH.
But your are deluding yourself by clinging to the claim that COV is or ever has been a stand alone game.
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That marketing goof gave more than an impression. If I remember correctly it pretty much said it was a stand alone game. Which means the people that joined just because of villains were mislead. Now whether that misleading was intentional or not is completely irrelevant.
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Well, Zyph, you're not trolling like Terra keeps doing.
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I am starting to think we need to tie Terra's and Nancy's hands to gether and give them both a dagger.
For all we know the Devs have read every page.
I think that giving the free access to both sides was NCsofts way of saying they are one game to them. It really dosen't matter how Cryptic envisioned the two/one/expansion when released, what matters is how NCsoft views it now.
As of now NCsoft only makes GvE to sell in stores any more, and they gave acess to both to all standing customers to further their opinion on the issue. It looks to me they want them to be one game. What we think matters only so much, in that we have a choice to stay or go. NancY said she is going, I wish you luck on finding a game you like better.
CoH was my first MMO, then CoV came, I beta tested it every night in the two hour window, then pre ordered the collecters adition. I love both games, my personality leans more to the blue, but red is still a fun game to play. We all agree that CoV needs stuff to help it.
I am trying not to troll, but personal insults tend to inflame people and make them respond with the same, I know I am guilty of it at times 
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As Munki pointed out, and as I have been TRYING to get through Terra's thick skull, the game WAS marketed as an independent, complete, game. That's what I bought, that's what a lot of people bought. And we feel we were lied to. We were lied to. They're going out of their way now to run from their own marketing as fast as they can. It doesn't fly. I expect the game I paid for to be given attention too. I've been just as dedicated, just as loyal, as any blue-sider, my money's just as good, so why am I getting shafted all the time? Because "it's one game"? Again, if that is true, then NOBODY should complain if CoV gets a few issues worth of content exclusively. NOBODY should complain about anything CoV has that CoH doesn't. After all, it's one game.
But they do complain. And their own argument goes right out the window.
CoV needs attention. I'm not saying they need to match up number for number, but CoV needs more content. And it needs to be taken seriously again.
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CoV needs attention focused on it. It was billed and sold as a fully, complete, independent game...
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I'll throw my 2 cents on this. I really believe that this is a part of the problem with getting some new exclusive content into CoV. I really wish the devs/marketing/whoever was in charge of this product. Never made the decision to release it as a stand alone game. In my personal opinion the Dev team sees CoV as nothing more than an expansion to CoH vs. a stand alone game.
Although none of admitted out right that CoV is nothing but an expansion the CoH game, but there are signs here and there that seem to point to how the devs really view CoV. A patch that allowed those who had either the stand-alone versions of CoH or CoV to have access to both games, shared content with recent patches, the Good vs. Evil edition that's being sold.
From my point of view this should have never happened. Honestly I think the only reason this happened was to increase the subscription base and create more revenue.
It's like Blizzard releasing the Burning Crusade and saying that you don't need World of Warcraft to play it. Why bother to or even attempt to support 2 games that use the same engine, software code, use the same hardware, share the same backstory and plot when you can lump them together. It's a waste of resources and dollars. I'm sure that's what NCsoft/Cryptic realized when CoV came out.
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You know, I don't care if a dev doesn't respond in this particular thread, if one would just address the CoV players at all, somewhere on these forums. A state of the CoV game address, if you will.
Posi does still refer to these games as the "City of games" (emphasis mine). If it was truly one game why not refer to it as Cities of game? Um, maybe because it's not.
They really screwed the players on this. CoV was sold as a stand alone game, billed as a stand alone game, and now because the new regime doesn't want to put so much effort into it anymore it's blanketed under the One Game flag.
More than anything, I think CoV needs its own lead designer. I don't think Positron should be in charge of both. That's right, I said it. And I'm predicting that unless it gets its own lead designer, who can be CoV's spokesman or woman, or at the very least its own liaison, it will always be a distant second to CoH. That might be good enough for some of you, but it's not good enough for all of us.
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Asking for what villains need so it could happen is what should be done. Forget the "we need it cuz they got it" angle. It's distracting.
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Remember villains have some of the best stuff in the game and I don't think giving them to heroes is desirable but it is logical with a "make us equal" argument.
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Maybe I need more coffee, but that seems like a do as I say not as I do type of philosophy. And I reading that wrong? Sounds like villains shouldn't ask for it just because heroes have it, but on the other hand giving the cool villain stuff to heroes makes sense to keep things equal.
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now because the new regime doesn't want to put so much effort into it anymore it's blanketed under the One Game flag.
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I think they are doing this so they can put more into both games. Rather than having one team supporting two factions/games, they can have one larger team supporting one game.
I think it should have been sold as an expansion any way, with players of either factions being able to travel the whole of the game world. This would benefit every one, if they flagged PvP (As a note I HATE PvP) , added new red contacts to paragon, and blue contacts to the isles there would be an instant increase in content.
Also CoV did have its own lead it was Zeb Cook aka Lord Recluse. I liked him alot, and loved the direction he wanted to take the red side, which included side switching I might add. I am not sure why he left, but many speculate that it was over Jack's vision.
Yes, the original marketing of them as separate games was effed up, and never should of been done if they were going to share a game world, same time line, and engine. I think they know this and thats why they were quick to merge the games. I know it may not seem like it, but I bet if you give it time, we will ALL see that this is better for CoV.
Now I am not a Dev [censored] kisser, I have done my fair share of calling them out, and complaining about they way they do things, but Positron has been a blessing to these two games. He continues to implement things Jack would never have, and communicates honestly with the player base. All of our Devs left secure Jobs to follow NCsoft's purchase of CoX. I am sure this meant changing benefits, moving offices, and a slew of other things. They have admitted that the went because they love the game CoX.
Now the CoX line has more people working on it, and more money being dumped into it, BAB said the sky is the limit.
I am not sure I would call the last year neglect. Issues are slowly being dealt with. While even as a hero player I don't like Obo, or the RWZ (well I like the costumes) I still admit they were added content for both sides. Do I think CoV still needs more? Hell yes, so put the pitchfork and torch away. I still say (even though BI flamed me) that some one should start a thread in the suggestions and ideas on what needs to be added to CoV to make it a better game.
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These games weren't designed with cross faction in mind. It won't work well unless they do some SERIOUS retooling to the game engine. I hope to NEVER see complete cross faction in CoX. Save that for CoH 2 so the game can be designed with it from the ground up.
And once again, creating content for heroes and then giving villains access to it is NOT creating content for both sides. Giving us all the exact same stuff is NOT necessarily creating content for both sides, especially when the stuff is designed FOR one side.
RWZ is not villain content. Period. Until there are villain specific contacts, themes, etc. to do there, it is hero content. It isn't even good co-op content. Hamidon would have been good co-op content. RWZ goes against CoV story. God damn I am so [censored] sick of having to repeat this over and over because some people just [censored] refuse to see it.
When content is designed with City of Heroes in mind, and City of Villains is given access to it just becuase "they're one game", it doesn't fit. It doesn't address the issues CoV players have. It doesn't give us more content to fill our gaps. It doesn't give us our VEATs. It doesn't give us our SFs for the levels that are missing them. It doesn't give us our alternate leveling paths. It doesn't give us options. The "new" content is like trying to put a fresh coat of paint on a car that's rusted through and is missing it's engine, seats, and wheels. If this is all CoV players have to look forward to, CoH getting new content and CoV getting access to it, then they should just drop CoV entirely.
CoV has very specific problem areas, and "just any ol' new content" WON'T FIX THEM.
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These games weren't designed with cross faction in mind. It won't work well unless they do some SERIOUS retooling to the game engine. I hope to NEVER see complete cross faction in CoX. Save that for CoH 2 so the game can be designed with it from the ground up.
And once again, creating content for heroes and then giving villains access to it is NOT creating content for both sides. Giving us all the exact same stuff is NOT necessarily creating content for both sides, especially when the stuff is designed FOR one side.
RWZ is not villain content. Period. Until there are villain specific contacts, themes, etc. to do there, it is hero content. It isn't even good co-op content. Hamidon would have been good co-op content. RWZ goes against CoV story. God damn I am so [censored] sick of having to repeat this over and over because some people just [censored] refuse to see it.
When content is designed with City of Heroes in mind, and City of Villains is given access to it just becuase "they're one game", it doesn't fit. It doesn't address the issues CoV players have. It doesn't give us more content to fill our gaps. It doesn't give us our VEATs. It doesn't give us our SFs for the levels that are missing them. It doesn't give us our alternate leveling paths. It doesn't give us options. The "new" content is like trying to put a fresh coat of paint on a car that's rusted through and is missing it's engine, seats, and wheels. If this is all CoV players have to look forward to, CoH getting new content and CoV getting access to it, then they should just drop CoV entirely.
CoV has very specific problem areas, and "just any ol' new content" WON'T FIX THEM.
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I would pretty pissed if they just dropped CoV. I agree there needs to be some evil slanted contacts in RWZ, or the missions need to be more moraly gray, as for Obo I haven't played it enough red or blue to have an opinion. No man I don't agree that it was not content, it is there, you can do it, so it is content. We can agree to disagree and I promise not to bring the RWZ up again, but I do like the costumes 
No need to get pissed man, just differing opinions
I am not sure it would take as much codeing as you think to add them. I don't know for a fact, and if you have a dev comment on it please link it. As it is now we co-exzist in PvP zones, Co-Op zones, and PD. The biggest issue I could see would be finding a way to flag PvP to make every one happy.
I was really unhappy when I found out they would not be merged in the begining, there were a few players I was looking foward to hunting down and killing, ut that was the past, and what we really want is to influence the future in the form of more zones, story content, and bug fixes for the red faction of the game.
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, but CoV needs more content.
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This is the single point I think we have all agreed to in this thread. Here you are dead on Death_Mage IMO any way.
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Well, we've had the "co-op" zone since, what, Feb '06? Pocket D in the Valentine's event? But there have always been problems with it. Heroes and villains cannot find each other when searching for players, we can't trade insps, enhancements, or recipes, etc. And so far every singly "co-op" mission has been blue sided. Not even grey, but straight blue. We have to save the world, rescue people, or save the holidays themselves.
As a villain, why the HELL am I being treated to nothing but hero tasks on the special occasions? At least the first CoV winter event had us stealing presents, but after that it's been all hero missions where villains could tag along. Hell, at least give us some variety. Why are we opening presents and being presented with naughty/nice options? Why are we trick or treating, and looking for treats instead of dishing out the tricks? Why are we rescuing baby new year instead of trying to bring down a fat man on a sleigh? That's all fine and well if you're a hero, but it doesn't freaking fit in CoV.
And this is what happens with the stupid "it's one game" mindset. They design for City of Heroes (since designing for an expansion would just be silly), and then we get access to Hero stuff. We're [censored] sick of it already.
Bull.
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an expansion that you could play without the main game
[/ QUOTE ] is NOT an expansion, it's a stand alone game. What part of that don't you understand?
Plus, the official store SAYS it's a "Stand-alone title" I suppose NCSoft and Cryptic (since they developed it) are deluded too?
You can still buy CoV without having to by GvE.
No one has to go out of their way to avoid the other side, in fact, you have to go out of your way to come in contact with the other side. Jeez, you aren't even worth talking to you can't understand simple English.