Why do the devs hate COV?
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-06 17:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The only idiot here has a smiley face for an avatar.
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What an elegant, thoughtful rejoinder! As for the smiley face, I judge you for not recognizing it.
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It's easy for him to make his comments because where he's standing the water is fine.
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News flash: I PLAY VILLAINS TOO. There is no "us vs. them", just "smart vs. stupid", and you've clearly demonstrated which side of that conflict you're on.
Arc 55669 - Tales of the PPD: One Hell of a Deal (video trailer)
Arc 64511 - The Wrecking Ball
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Yeah, 'cause you're smart to not want more content villain side.
That makes sense, in an idiotic sort of way. Excuse me if I don't see it your way.
Only thing I recognize on your avatar is the brown on your nose which clearly demonstrates which side you're on.
I never said I didn't want more content red-side. I'm just not dimwitted enough to believe that the lack of it indicates some kind of secret agenda on the part of the devs. I know it's hard for emo types to understand, but sometimes it really isn't about you.
Arc 55669 - Tales of the PPD: One Hell of a Deal (video trailer)
Arc 64511 - The Wrecking Ball
Arc 1745 - The Trouble With Trimbles
Arc 302901 - HappyCorpse
What an excellent thread and a terrific advertisement for the City of... games!
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What an excellent thread and a terrific advertisement for the City of... games!
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My thoughts exactly. 
Actually, I'm surprised this discussion lasted as long as it did.
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I never said I didn't want more content red-side. I'm just not dimwitted enough to believe that the lack of it indicates some kind of secret agenda on the part of the devs. I know it's hard for emo types to understand, but sometimes it really isn't about you.
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From Positron:
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Just to head this off at the pass, there is no Anniversary badge for CoV 2 years... we want to get to a point where we only celebrate ONE anniversary a year, like normal folks.
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Yup, no favoritism there.
Sorry, the devs betrayed us. Flat out. It was billed, and sold as, an independent game. But the devs now have come out and said it's not, it won't be treated as such. So yea, there *IS* a discrepancy in how we are treated, and it DOES bother those of us who've been loyal to OUR game since launch.
I left City of Heroes when they announced villains would not be playable. I came back when they announced City of Villains. This is what I wanted to play from the beginning. And I'm sick of being dedicated to my game for years and being shat upon by the people who are supposed to be responsible for keeping the game up to date, especially when they DO continue crafting so hard in such an obvious blue side slant.
CoV might as well not [censored] exist in their eyes. They've basically said as much, and we have every damned right to be mad at 'em for it.
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Yeah, well, it's quite clear how the devs feel about CoV and the players that are concerned about it and want to see it made better.
They have time to post about movies they've seen, or other games they've played. But they don't have 5 minutes to address people that have real concern and are getting angry.
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If you truely believe this why are you here?
I actually take the fact that your still here to mean you don't believe the malarky your spouting about the devs hating COV.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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I never said I didn't want more content red-side. I'm just not dimwitted enough to believe that the lack of it indicates some kind of secret agenda on the part of the devs. I know it's hard for emo types to understand, but sometimes it really isn't about you.
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I don't think it's a secret agenda, but they do ignore it, no secret there. I didn't say they hate it either, I just posted in a thread that someone else titled. I guess because you posted here too that means you think they hate it too.
Quite honestly, I don't get why you even care what I think if I'm an idiot and emo in your eyes. I said I was looking for another game and leaving when I find one I like. Instead of just leaving it at that you have to poke me by telling someone else to jump in the cab with me. Then you poke me more with your next few posts. Why, it's like you're a little child in school who has a crush on a girl so he pulls her hair to get her attention. If you keep it up I'll think you want me to stay because you like me.
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I think being vocal about what players want for CoV is a very important thing. It lets the Devs know where they ought to be focusing their efforts. For example, read this post from Ex Libris regarding the wishes of the PVP community. People who are vocal about CoV should be taking notes there about how to communicate with the Devs. Be persistent, be realistic, avoid bias or malice, etc.
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You mean the post where she goes : "Get more people to PvP and devs will look at the issues." and everyone brought forward a very valid point that people who have tried PvP had three reactions:
1) Got ganked, never came back/Never wanted any in the first place.
2) Tried it, won't come back until extreme balance changes are made/Something is added to PvP
3) Is PvPing regularly.
So, yeah. Their voices were sure heard there! All Ex is saying (and CAN say, I'm not asking her to outright lie) is that if more people PvP, the issues will get fixed in a case where Field of Dreams is a better reference (If you build it, they will come. Rather, fix it, to be frank.)
Needless to say, if that's what it takes for Villain issues to get fixed, anyone who plays Villains only might as well stop paying for the game. When a particular side has only half a game available, it's to be expected that they only have half the numbers of the completed side.
Castle is currently working on Stalker issues, but that's only one person. I don't see the other developers (mostly because they don't post on the boards for the most part) working on anything that could be considered Villain-only content. Even with the expanded development team, it'll take a severe change in the philosophy of the developing team in order for CoV to get the attention it actually needs. 50/50 content is nice for both sides, but it's only maintenance for both sides. The thing is, one side is happy because they have no true issues to address except the odd powerset/kink here and there - CoH does not really need a huge change except sprucing up the Hazard Zones, fixing a few things here and there, and some QoL changes that would benefit both sides. The other side is unhappy because their issues aren't being addressed in a timely manner, and the more time passes by, the less they believe the issues will get fixed, and content be added for them so they have more things to do than doing previously existing content (which, on the CoV side, was all fun and dandy when it came out... 4-5 issues ago. The actual mission texts haven't aged well - I didn't expect them to, but I've developed an aversion to most CoV contacts. It's that bad.) or a co-op zone (which was fun... until you realized that only Heroes were in the zone, really, or that you can't even look for Heroes unless doing a /whoall or a broadcast advertisement for your teaming availability - That, however, is a problem on both sides.)
I can understand the developers hating CoV at times - It's players are extremely stubborn and have a tendency to hijack perfectly legit threads to voice their concerns. The fact that CoH only players do not exhibit such behavior isn't a testament to which side they play or their moral character, but more than there actually - I might be wrong here, but I'll advance my theory anyway - may be something wrong with CoV. From what I've seen, CoV is lacking, it has always been lacking (except maybe around the time of Issue 7), and unless the developers bother with filling it up, it will always be lacking.
And I, for one, like my games to be complete.
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It was billed, and sold as, an independent game. But the devs now have come out and said it's not, it won't be treated as such.
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That is a very good point.
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Yeah, well, it's quite clear how the devs feel about CoV and the players that are concerned about it and want to see it made better.
They have time to post about movies they've seen, or other games they've played. But they don't have 5 minutes to address people that have real concern and are getting angry.
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If you truely believe this why are you here?
I actually take the fact that your still here to mean you don't believe the malarky your spouting about the devs hating COV.
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Reading comprehension much? You're related to Xyzyx aren't you? I can tell, I see the resemblance.
Keep it up, maybe the two of you can get the thread locked and deleted like so many other threads where villain players post their unhappiness. Wouldn't want to scare off future dupe...er...customers.
I'm going to bed now. So if you two manage to post more wit, and put more words in my mouth, and give more examples of your lack of comprehension, and it's deleted before the morning, you'll have wasted it on me.
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It was billed, and sold as, an independent game. But the devs now have come out and said it's not, it won't be treated as such.
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That is a very good point.
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Not that good, pretty much most folk knew it was an expanshalone.... bad word for an expansion that you didn't need the main game to play if you didn't want to. But the very fact that from the first just adding COH & COV to a single account unlocked it as a full expansion shot any illusion that it was a stand alone game seperate from COH all to pieces.
That people managed to delude themselves and apparently still delude themselves into thinking of it as a seperate thing is well ... just sad.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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It was billed, and sold as, an independent game. But the devs now have come out and said it's not, it won't be treated as such.
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That is a very good point.
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Except they can't undo what was already done - The game was sold as a standalone that was also an expansion. Hell, at this point, I'd take a paid expansion to CoV in order to bring the content up to Hero level (and even then, I think Heroes lack content sometimes!)
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That people managed to delude themselves and apparently still delude themselves into thinking of it as a seperate thing is well ... just sad.
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You don't know people well, do you?
It's not because it's separate - Hell, it technically is considering that other than PvP/Co-op zones, Heroes and Villains never interact. Ever. Not even the markets. In fact, a player could play and never meet anyone from the other side. They're not different games and shouldn't be expected to be.
All I'm asking for here is a confirmation that Villains will get some sort of attention or if we're wasting our time. I don't care if it's in the form of an announcement, redname post, or whatever. At least people could actually know what's going on other than : "It was meant to be an expansion, really!" two years after the fact.
So we're spiraling downwards into flames again. Great. Nothing I can't handle; I came from the Friggin' Taser School of Forum Warfare and I've learned from watching the best.
Now when you say "Attention," what you mean is "the attention we didn't get in issues 9, 10, and 11." Because if it's shared with the other half of the game ("Nuuuu! It's a whole different game!") then it's obviously no good, because it's not addressing the content gap. New stuff, fun stuff, it doesn't matter if it doesn't help villains play keep up with the Joneses. Nevermind the lack of resources blah blah NCSoft merger blah blah repeating myself.
I think the reason that villain players are still clinging so desperately to the notion that their "standalone sequel" is an "independent game" (in spite of what the lead developer for the entire game has already said) is that they want to be able to add the word "righteous" in front of their indignation. They don't want to face the reality that their group of hardcore villain-only players is one of many sub-groups among the playerbase, and that when it came time for the Devs to prioritize the content for their free expansions, that their wishes along with the wishes of other sub-groups were not as high priority as developing new content that everyone could enjoy, no matter what side they played on.
But no... these players are just dead-set on painting themselves as being ignored, neglected, patronized, lied to... in short... they want to see themselves as victims. Anyone who offers a rational explanation that goes against the victim mentality is clearly a blue-side brown-noser, a hypocrite, or ignorant of their own bias. It's a mentality they've fiercely defended... but it's transparent.
Blue-side... no, sorry, BOTH-side players have been getting wild accusations in this thread about secretly wanting CoV to just wither and die off already. Well, let me turn that around. I think villain-only players should just admit that they'd love it if they could close that content gap, even if it meant pissing off the greater majority of the playerbase to do so. Screw everyone else, they're just hypocrites anyway...
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What an excellent thread and a terrific advertisement for the City of... games!
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My thoughts exactly.
Actually, I'm surprised this discussion lasted as long as it did.
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Hey Baron, as a mainly redside guy. What's your top 3 issues ?
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Not that good, pretty much most folk knew it was an expanshalone.... bad word for an expansion that you didn't need the main game to play if you didn't want to. But the very fact that from the first just adding COH & COV to a single account unlocked it as a full expansion shot any illusion that it was a stand alone game seperate from COH all to pieces.
That people managed to delude themselves and apparently still delude themselves into thinking of it as a seperate thing is well ... just sad.
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Conversely, what I find sad is that some people can't wrap their minds around the fact that CoV is a standalone game, because it's thinking that's outside their box.
See this: bad word for an expansion that you didn't need the main game to play ? That right there tells you it's not a full expansion. Expansions require the original game in order to play the new content. It was only an expansion to people that already owned CoH, but not to people that only bought CoV. In fact, it's still being sold as a standalone game. Until it only comes in one box, and requires you to install CoH to install it, thereby requiring you to have CoH to play it, it's a separate game.
Considering that players that wanted no part of villains only got the use of bases, the use of the new costumes, and the 4 extra character slots with this so called expansion shoots the idea that it was a true expansion all to pieces.
That people delude themselves into thinking it's one game because they pay one monthly fee is sad. That came about because of all the crying on the forums. Players felt they were being forced to buy CoV to get the things I mentioned and they didn't want to have to pay more per month for a game they didn't really want or intend to play. If it wasn't for the bases and the extra character slots, most of you would never have bought CoV. The devs should have kept them as separate games, with separate fees, and separate player bases. We'd all have been better off.
Speaking for myself, when I say attention I don't mean what we didn't get in issues 9, 10, and 11. I mean that we don't get in general. Not even on the forums. Villains will never be able to keep up with heroes content wise, the blue side had too much of a head start. I think most villain players can accept the game will never be equal, but we do take issue with them not being fair. Shared content doesn't move the CoV story along. Shared content doesn't get villains EATs, which were scrapped at one point, but now are back on the menu, they're just...not in yet. 20 months after the last major addition to CoV.
*See above for my opinion on standalone/expansion* So you're saying that any sub-groups should just quit now because if you're not mainstream your money isn't good at NCNC or NCSoft? Now you see why I'm shopping for a new game and will close my 2 accounts.
Dude, if you really believed that spiel about it being content anyone can enjoy then you shouldn't care if villains got a few free issues for themselves. Please explain how hero content is content "everyone" can enjoy, if they prefer to play villains. If villain content can't be enjoyed by hero players, the same holds true the other way around.
Funny thing is, they lost a huge portion of the PvP player base because they waited so long to address that sub-group, looks like they'll do the same with villain players. I hope they can afford even more loss.
It's not wild accusations when the actions taken, and not taken, by the devs speak louder than words. How long do you think a thread like this, if it pertained to hero side concerns, would go without a red name appearance? Not this long, I bet. How you could still defend that is beyond me.
Can I have your stuff?
I can tell you that the rate of costume recipe drops went on for months before a red name chimed in. This thread started bad, and I am sure that contributes some to the Devs not stopping by. I know when I am accused in such a manner my first response is [censored] you. A title like Why do the Devs hate CoV does not really foster communication.
I think what he means by content they both can enjoy are things like flash back, weapon customization, inventions, new powers, and co-op zones. I do think a little more could of gone into the RWZ to make it more neutral, or have different mission text/contacts.
Part of the reason I see them as the same game is the shared world, and shared mechanics. They really are two sides of the same coin, and this is not a bad thing when done right.
If you look after i7 there was a good long time before there was anything added to the game, red or blue. Gaps like that have helped to cause hard feelings on both sides. I think if i8 (as is) had of hit as fast as i9, i10, and i11 did last year no one (no one reasonable any way) would have said a word, and I still think that is the case. I do hope the new staff will make things faster and better for both sides.
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My Portfolio
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I'd bug the contacts talking to me like I was a villain if I was playing a hero, and I'd be fine with the rest. Turns out I play both red-side and blue-side. And if Issue 15 was called "Get Bent, Stupid Heroes, It's All About the Villainy", I'd go enjoy the content red-side without gnashing my teeth and tearing my hair out because I couldn't play through it with a hero.
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Clearly you're in the minority, since many remember the crap storm that was I6-I7. Heroes got new zones (Its content, its just not content 'YOU' like) in the form of pvp zones, and all hell broke loose with the whining. But when anyone says anything about the reverse, there are a million "reasons" why it's good business.
Vet rewards=content?
RWZ (complete with obvious Heroside slanted text)=content?
Inventions (dubbed "optional")=content?
And as far as Hamidon, I believe the whole thing about that was that Heroes hit brawl, and got a Hami-O. People villainside wondered why they needed to complete a SF the devs themselves couldnt beat to achieve the same reward. SO it was given to villains...AFTER being changed. One could look at how many times the new hami has been run to see its appeal.
So...what heroes complained about was absolutely called for, when ones who want improvement redside are "whiners" or "conspiracy theorists." That makes no sense. 
Patron Powers- Fail.
New Hamidon- Fail.
Bugged RSF- fail.
Fury in Pvp- fail.
Stalkers in PVE- fail.
Thats just my personal top 5, in no particular order- and I dont even play stalkers.
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I can tell you that the rate of costume recipe drops went on for months before a red name chimed in. This thread started bad, and I am sure that contributes some to the Devs not stopping by. I know when I am accused in such a manner my first response is [censored] you. A title like Why do the Devs hate CoV does not really foster communication.
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They don't have to post in this particular thread. Except there is no real way to say "Hey, look! That part of the game is extremely lacking!" without either seeming insulting or without someone who misreads the intent of the topic and starts a flame war. (And before someone says "THAT'S ALWAYS X SIDE!", no. Both "sides" are guilty of this.)
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I think what he means by content they both can enjoy are things like flash back, weapon customization, inventions, new powers, and co-op zones. I do think a little more could of gone into the RWZ to make it more neutral, or have different mission text/contacts.
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True, but even then, there's a problem with the team search in that it doesn't allow for searching of villains. There really is a physical barrier that really prevents co-op play in that zone (and every other co-op zone that gets introduced later on). More neutral content would have been great. More content in general, for both sides, would have been awesome.
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Part of the reason I see them as the same game is the shared world, and shared mechanics. They really are two sides of the same coin, and this is not a bad thing when done right.
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Except it hasn't been done right. The two sides of the same coin analogy is correct in this case. Only at fringe points do they interact, which is the case here. If there is a "physical" separation between the two sides, it does foster the mentality that it is two separate games. Either they make more interaction happen, or spruce up villain side so that they can at least have some extra stuff to do.
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If you look after i7 there was a good long time before there was anything added to the game, red or blue. Gaps like that have helped to cause hard feelings on both sides. I think if i8 (as is) had of hit as fast as i9, i10, and i11 did last year no one (no one reasonable any way) would have said a word, and I still think that is the case. I do hope the new staff will make things faster and better for both sides.
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Same here. More content = Always good. However, the new content just wasn't exactly what villain side needed. Ouroboros was a boon to people who badge a lot and missed a few key missions for accolades. Hero arcs are long, and you can easily end up not doing any of them due to the Hollows-Faultline-Striga-Croatoa-(gap)-RWZ line if you so wish. Villains, not having an alternate line, will likely end up doing all the content available to them at some point, in either one, or two, playthroughs... without hindering their XP gain with debt and all. This alternate line is missing for CoV. That's withstanding the fact that Grandville has legit issues and was pretty much a lie all along (The only thing vertical about it is Recluse's tower, and it's not even really used) and that Sharkhead still implodes, taking everybody within it, on occasion.
So yeah, these are a few reasons why people who do play red-side or would love to play it more wants for the developers to take a severe look at that expansion. Either amputate it or cure it, I say.
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I can tell you that the rate of costume recipe drops went on for months before a red name chimed in.
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What? I just looked back at AmazingMOO's thread about that. He posted on 5/07/07. His title was clearly calling out to the devs, "Continued Dev Silence on Costume Drops?" He stated it had been a week since the inventions came in, Issue 9 released May 1, 07. And Positron posted the next day. The next day!
What months? You mean hours.
Oh, and the devs were called out to more than once in that thread, and they answered. Go figure.
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So we're spiraling downwards into flames again. Great. Nothing I can't handle; I came from the Friggin' Taser School of Forum Warfare and I've learned from watching the best.
Now when you say "Attention," what you mean is "the attention we didn't get in issues 9, 10, and 11." Because if it's shared with the other half of the game ("Nuuuu! It's a whole different game!") then it's obviously no good, because it's not addressing the content gap. New stuff, fun stuff, it doesn't matter if it doesn't help villains play keep up with the Joneses. Nevermind the lack of resources blah blah NCSoft merger blah blah repeating myself.
I think the reason that villain players are still clinging so desperately to the notion that their "standalone sequel" is an "independent game" (in spite of what the lead developer for the entire game has already said) is that they want to be able to add the word "righteous" in front of their indignation. They don't want to face the reality that their group of hardcore villain-only players is one of many sub-groups among the playerbase, and that when it came time for the Devs to prioritize the content for their free expansions, that their wishes along with the wishes of other sub-groups were not as high priority as developing new content that everyone could enjoy, no matter what side they played on.
But no... these players are just dead-set on painting themselves as being ignored, neglected, patronized, lied to... in short... they want to see themselves as victims. Anyone who offers a rational explanation that goes against the victim mentality is clearly a blue-side brown-noser, a hypocrite, or ignorant of their own bias. It's a mentality they've fiercely defended... but it's transparent.
Blue-side... no, sorry, BOTH-side players have been getting wild accusations in this thread about secretly wanting CoV to just wither and die off already. Well, let me turn that around. I think villain-only players should just admit that they'd love it if they could close that content gap, even if it meant pissing off the greater majority of the playerbase to do so. Screw everyone else, they're just hypocrites anyway...
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/em claps
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
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I can tell you that the rate of costume recipe drops went on for months before a red name chimed in.
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What? I just looked back at AmazingMOO's thread about that. He posted on 5/07/07. His title was clearly calling out to the devs, "Continued Dev Silence on Costume Drops?" He stated it had been a week since the inventions came in, Issue 9 released May 1, 07. And Positron posted the next day. The next day!
What months? You mean hours.
Oh, and the devs were called out to more than once in that thread, and they answered. Go figure.
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Yea, look back at the month + that the same threads ran in Closed beta, and got in to the hundreds of pages. May want to go look back bit further.
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
I'd bug the contacts talking to me like I was a villain if I was playing a hero, and I'd be fine with the rest. Turns out I play both red-side and blue-side. And if Issue 15 was called "Get Bent, Stupid Heroes, It's All About the Villainy", I'd go enjoy the content red-side without gnashing my teeth and tearing my hair out because I couldn't play through it with a hero.
Arc 55669 - Tales of the PPD: One Hell of a Deal (video trailer)
Arc 64511 - The Wrecking Ball
Arc 1745 - The Trouble With Trimbles
Arc 302901 - HappyCorpse