Why do the devs hate COV?

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Nobody wants to see Heroes get shafted. But a 60/40 balance, or a 75/25 balance, still gives heroes plenty new to do and helps fill the obvious, glaring gaps in CoV.

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I've seen you bring up this point before(and I think I agreed with it too initially, I don't now that I've thought about it). Please explain to me how in the world giving about 1/3 of the game's population more content than the other 2/3? How would that make financial success? It seems to me that splitting the content 50/50(even if you don't like the content or how some of the missions are worded, it counts as content), like the have been doing recently, is the best course of action. Now if they do almost half and half then add a feature or two for villains each issue(Epic ATs, a new TF here or there, etc) that would be good for them as well.

But to even suggest that villains get 3 times the new content heroes do is absurd. Please explain to me how that could possibly be a good idea for NC Soft.

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Because everyone has access to both sides now?

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True, but that doesn't mean people will start playing the other faction. Many people will stay with what they know and what's comfortable to them. Keep in mind, I am not saying now, nor have I ever, that heroes should get more content or that it has to be 50/50(I did comment that an even split may be best), I am simply saying that giving the faction that is played the least 3 times the amount of new content is a bad idea and shouldn't be done. What I think would be best is if the split was close to even with the villains side getting a little more new content every issue.

Also: I said the population is about 1/3 villains to 2/3 heroes. I just want to make clear I don't actually know that is the true numbers, just what I've heard estimated before. Looking back I should not have even used those numbers. But I think it is obvious that significantly more people play heroes compared to villains.

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Woodsman’s Task Force (the “Eden Trial”) and the Maren MacGregor Task Force (aka the “Sewer Trial”) now have choice tables upon completion. Choice can be a Task Force recipe (i.e. a recipe from the Task Force pool), or the Multi-aspect Enhancement reward that these missions have normally given. Choosing the recipe counts as your “once every three hours” Task Force recipe reward for that character.


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Something else Red Side doesn't have access to. :P

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They're nothing to write home about, believe me.

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but the point is, blue side CAN write home about them. Red Side just gets to look at something else blue side has that it doesn't.

Red side is like a poor kid whose best friend is rich. Sure his parents try, but well, they just can't compete. and blue side just has way more toys.

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Those things are just fluff. Blue side has a lot of fluff. It also has some actually fun things, too. I think that the experience of running an Eden trial is a lot more fun than the enhancement you get afterwards. The enhancement is pretty and shiny but is weaker than an SO (unlike Hami-Os) and has none of the benefits that you could get from multi-aspect IOs (opportunity for set bonuses and inability to outlevel).

I, personally, would rather see CoV get solid, fun content before it gets "fluff."

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"Oh but you got the RWZ!" you cry. Did we....? The RWZ is for heroes. The developers allow villains into the RWZ as an afterthought. We know this because one of the first things we do is go rescue Longbow officers..... and if you think a single one of my villains gives a damn whether or not those two idiots Fusionette and Faultline live or die, I suggest you think again. I would hazard a guess I am not alone in that.

Regurgitated content FTL:
Bad

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Emphasis added for the bit I was mostly replying to, since I really can't believe that this thread is still getting new posts and just felt like derailing for a post or two.

My Fire/Kin Corruptor loves having Fusionette and Faultline along on those missions. [...]

So while I understand that your statement reflects your opinion, I have to most vehemently disagree from my end.

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Well, "I would hazard a guess that I am not alone in [not being interested in shepherding Fusionette and Faultline through missions, and finding this requirement to be out of character]" is not the equivalent of "I just KNOW everyone in CoV thinks the exact same way I do!"

I am sure there are those of you who enjoy squiring F & F around. There are also those of us who really would rather do something else.

So we do it - usually somewheres outside the RWZ. Problem solved - but also "new" content some of us are not really that interested in running. Especially on Corruptors.

*mez*

*sleep*

*Sleep*

*MEZ!*

"sleep!*

[leaves zone]

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In order to make CoV better in 2008, it will gain some much-needed buffs that CoH currently has.
First off, missions within a story arc will be scattered across at least three zones at a minimum, and access to the contact's cell phone will not occur until far later in the contact's relationship.
Happy now?

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Still best post of the whole thread.

<QR> The biggest tip off that RWZ is a hero zone that villains are let into isn't the missions, but the mission text.

In a joint war effort to save the planet, you'd have to save longbow at some point. Whatever. Working with F&F, whatever. Maybe you don't care if they live or die, but useful fools are useful tools momma always said.

The problem I had, and it's sad as it's such a minor thing (this goes both ways. sad it's a problem for me, and sad it wasn't fixed). But you're talked to like a hero. You get a bit in the beginning about it not mattering what side you're on, and then after that all the text is default "this is a level 35 or higher hero".

A bit of extra dialogue and a simple if/then/else statement on the RWZ contacts chat trees could've solved that perfectly, and made RWZ look a lot more like what it was meant to be. A JOINT forces co-op zone where everyone came together to kick some alien butt.

I also agree that red needs more serious content before fluff. I was mostly just being silly. A lot of people who are die hard red fans though I think would settle for anything, just so long as it was there, in game, and specifically for them (or like RWZ only "default red side" or something for some of us )

I enjoy both sides of the game for different things. I still think Red is sadly lacking in content and needs a hand up.

Ok, let's try this again, while less tired, and after having been humbled on one key complaint that turned out to be false (Heroes and Villains apparently have the same amount of Trial Pool drop options (although I've still never seen villains run Hamidon on my server... very frustrating that)).

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Nobody wants to see Heroes get shafted. But a 60/40 balance, or a 75/25 balance, still gives heroes plenty new to do and helps fill the obvious, glaring gaps in CoV.

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I've seen you bring up this point before(and I think I agreed with it too initially, I don't now that I've thought about it). Please explain to me how in the world giving about 1/3 of the game's population more content than the other 2/3? How would that make financial success? It seems to me that splitting the content 50/50(even if you don't like the content or how some of the missions are worded, it counts as content), like the have been doing recently, is the best course of action. Now if they do almost half and half then add a feature or two for villains each issue(Epic ATs, a new TF here or there, etc) that would be good for them as well.

But to even suggest that villains get 3 times the new content heroes do is absurd. Please explain to me how that could possibly be a good idea for NC Soft.

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Simple: More reason to play. Right now, there is half of the game that is being neglected. Even the supposed 50/50 splits really aren't when they are focused entirely on one side with the other side simply given access. Adding new content to CoV, especially now that everyone has access to it, makes CoV more attractive, and gives more reason to actually PLAY it. Plus, it makes those of us who DO favor that side a bit LESS likely to just say "[censored] it" and leave becuase of being neglected.

Villains need more content. Nobody can look at the two games and say otherwise. We have serious gaps in our TFs, we have no trials, we have *ONE* zone path, no options. We are locked into *ONE* story. Heroes have choices. Simply put: More attention NEEDS to be paid to City of Villains to bring it up to speed.

This does not mean making an issue totally dedicated to Villains. heroes should get something every time too. Ideally, EVERY SINGLE ISSUE should be dropping new contacts, new mission arcs etc., even into pre-existing zones. Even if that's not the focus of the issue, it helps everyone to add new content here and there.

But, up to this point, they haven't done that. The devs have a myopic focus every issue, they implement the new tricks and NOTHING ELSE. Hell, it's only been recently that we've been seeing even some new costume options since, HOW long? We could earn them via longevity in I8, we could build pieces in I9, and buy them in I10, but nothing for newly created characters.

These things, these small bits of "fluff" are what makes the games interesting. If I13 turned out to be a 3:1 ratio in the favor of villains, and added some basic fixes, or a new gameplay mechanic, or just simple additions (new missions, new costume pieces, new powersets, or new contacts) to Heroes, you're still getting plenty new to do, and Villains will finally be getting what they NEED.

But, for the last time, the insane notion that CoH needs to be *THE* focus becuase it has the most people only spells the death of CoV, and hurts CoX as a whole for it. Attention is needed most where the content is lacking, NOT where content is already abundant.

Think Field of Dreams. If you build it, they will come.

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But, for the last time, the insane notion that CoH needs to be *THE* focus becuase it has the most people only spells the death of CoV, and hurts CoX as a whole for it. Attention is needed most where the content is lacking, NOT where content is already abundant.

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This I have to agree with. It does the game nothing but a disservice to shift focus off that which isn't played and into that which is. One can easily argue that one of the big reasons one side does have a greater population is exactly BECAUSE it has more content. But beyond that, to keep our game healthy and good, we need to keep every part of it up to scratch. It doesn't pay to neglect parts because they're not being used, as that's a vicious circle.

To me, the game needs to fix what's broken and add more where it lacks. It doesn't need to fine-tune what's working and add redundancy where we have more than enough. A good game is a game that's good overall, not excellent in some areas and terrible in others. It KILLS the replay value of my heroes that I have to spend all my time in frikkin' Sharkhead. And having run a series of low-level villains recently, I'm getting sick of Cap, too, while I've seen barely anything of Port Oaks.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

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Ok, let's try this again, while less tired, and after having been humbled on one key complaint that turned out to be false (Heroes and Villains apparently have the same amount of Trial Pool drop options (although I've still never seen villains run Hamidon on my server... very frustrating that)).

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Nobody wants to see Heroes get shafted. But a 60/40 balance, or a 75/25 balance, still gives heroes plenty new to do and helps fill the obvious, glaring gaps in CoV.

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I've seen you bring up this point before(and I think I agreed with it too initially, I don't now that I've thought about it). Please explain to me how in the world giving about 1/3 of the game's population more content than the other 2/3? How would that make financial success? It seems to me that splitting the content 50/50(even if you don't like the content or how some of the missions are worded, it counts as content), like the have been doing recently, is the best course of action. Now if they do almost half and half then add a feature or two for villains each issue(Epic ATs, a new TF here or there, etc) that would be good for them as well.

But to even suggest that villains get 3 times the new content heroes do is absurd. Please explain to me how that could possibly be a good idea for NC Soft.

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Simple: More reason to play. Right now, there is half of the game that is being neglected. Even the supposed 50/50 splits really aren't when they are focused entirely on one side with the other side simply given access. Adding new content to CoV, especially now that everyone has access to it, makes CoV more attractive, and gives more reason to actually PLAY it. Plus, it makes those of us who DO favor that side a bit LESS likely to just say "[censored] it" and leave becuase of being neglected.

Villains need more content. Nobody can look at the two games and say otherwise. We have serious gaps in our TFs, we have no trials, we have *ONE* zone path, no options. We are locked into *ONE* story. Heroes have choices. Simply put: More attention NEEDS to be paid to City of Villains to bring it up to speed.

This does not mean making an issue totally dedicated to Villains. heroes should get something every time too. Ideally, EVERY SINGLE ISSUE should be dropping new contacts, new mission arcs etc., even into pre-existing zones. Even if that's not the focus of the issue, it helps everyone to add new content here and there.

But, up to this point, they haven't done that. The devs have a myopic focus every issue, they implement the new tricks and NOTHING ELSE. Hell, it's only been recently that we've been seeing even some new costume options since, HOW long? We could earn them via longevity in I8, we could build pieces in I9, and buy them in I10, but nothing for newly created characters.

These things, these small bits of "fluff" are what makes the games interesting. If I13 turned out to be a 3:1 ratio in the favor of villains, and added some basic fixes, or a new gameplay mechanic, or just simple additions (new missions, new costume pieces, new powersets, or new contacts) to Heroes, you're still getting plenty new to do, and Villains will finally be getting what they NEED.

But, for the last time, the insane notion that CoH needs to be *THE* focus becuase it has the most people only spells the death of CoV, and hurts CoX as a whole for it. Attention is needed most where the content is lacking, NOT where content is already abundant.

Think Field of Dreams. If you build it, they will come.

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You bring up good points. Upon looking back a few pages and rereading some things it appears that we are both thinking about the same thing. Both should get more content every issue. Villains needs more love and should get some extra attention.

Who knows, we may have been thinking somewhat alike the entire time, we just didn't communicate it well with each other, and for that I take at least half the blame.

Yes, communication good. Tired bad.

I must apologize for some of my comments to you, Munki. There really was no excuse for them.

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Yes, communication good. Tired bad.

I must apologize for some of my comments to you, Munki. There really was no excuse for them.

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Sucks to be in this position, been there. Several times in the past few months my fingers have gotten ahead of my brain, and I made a coment I wouldn't normaly make. Emotions can be high because in fact we all care a ton about this game, it is a good thing.

For me , and I can speak for no one else, as long as blue side gets any new costumes, and powers I really don't care about new zones. In truth the big problem I had with i7 (and not i8) was the amount of time it took to roll anything else out. With an issue happening every 3 months I really wouldn't take issue with an issue focusing on red.

I like where things are going! In the spirit of the moment, I'm going to make a post where I don't disagree with someone else. Instead, I'll post some points I've been thinking about, regarding what beneficial things CoV did get over the past year.

-Issue 9 and villain Hamidon: Villain players had been requesting access to Hamidon since Issue 7. In Issue 9, they got it. Popularity of the redesigned raid experience aside, it proved that heroes aren't the only ones who have had requests granted by the Devs.

-Issue 10 and the Rikti War Zone: While it's gotten a bad rep in this thread so far, Issue 10 actually brought some very useful things to the villain experience. Namely:
<ul type="square"> [*]A new hunting ground for level 50 characters, and a new source of repeatable missions [*]An alternative to Grandville (aka Lagville) for villains in the 40-50 range [*]The ability to play your high level villain with your hero-side friends who might not have a high level villain of their own (This also allows a villain character to have a better chance at finding a team even on servers where red-side populations are anemic)[*]The LGTF has been bugged for long enough to allow characters from 35-50 to join instead of the intended 45-50 range, that it might as well be a feature. That means that, provided you have someone high enough to lackey to, the TF/SF hole in the 40-45 range for villains has been patched.[/list]While I won't deny the storyline aspect could've been implemented a little better for the villain perspective, I think that Issue 10 benefited villains quite a lot.

-Issue 11 and Ouroboros: As I mentioned a lot earlier in the thread, Flashback had a specific benefit for villains because of unlockable contacts. If your villain missed one of these because you didn't know they were there or you couldn't meet the requirements before outleveling them, Flashback granted you another chance to access them. Oh, and this time around, villains got mission text that actually fit them.

So, even though heroes and villains came out pretty even on stuff last year, there were some ways in which villains actually benefited more from the new stuff. Sure, there's still a content gap. But I'm fairly confident that this year, when the effects of the NCSoft merger start to be felt in the updates, that villain side will be seeing some of the attention it needs.

Just for lulz...

Why needy villains are true to the source material.

that's not quite as epic as wrighting up a fanfic about having to farm behemoths to prevent the end of the world.

But it's close.

My problem isn't with the RWZ itself, it's just that it didn't seem very well thought out. Like I've said before, there's already something just right for a "bigger threat" co-op, and that's Hamidon. As for the Rikti, villains have a contact where we're working with the waring faction. Story wise, their big invasion doesn't make sense for CoV. It doesn't make sense for CoV characters to be limited to working against their own allies. RWZ would have been a lot better if the zone hadn't been geared for Heroes. Have different text for Villains. Have some other contacts scattered about that let us work against Vanguard and with the Rikti, or just in our own interests. Have some hero specific contacts as well. (Alternate ways in for either side would help too... but that's just cosmetic. I mean, sabotaging a Vanguard plan than hopping home through their own portal... ballsy, but not very practical.)

On the surface, I have no real problems with the flashbacks. I think the TFs were poorly thought out though. Even forgiving the "series of endless AV/Hero fights", we have a story where WE put Recluse in power.. yet we're still supposed to bow down to him? Give me a break. I also think the challenges, while an interesting idea... are under utilized. All they do is give badges. They don't give any benefit other than that (unless I'm mistaken). Now, if turning the challenges on gave an increase in the rewards, say higher inf/exp (well, inf, since you're usually exempted down and thus can't gain exp anyway), more chance for drops, etc... But then they'd turn even more into farming missions... but really, aren't they anyway? There's no point to doing them after you've done the arc other than getting the rewards again...

And it's not even like the challenges are that hard. Villains have some "mission arcs" that are a single mission. Half an hour? No problem, I can be done in &lt;10 minutes! And it's an easy mission too, so no need for my temp powers, my inspirations, etc.

I11, badge [censored] and farming. That's pretty much what the current implementation of it turned out to be. *sigh*.

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Have different text for Villains. Have some other contacts scattered about that let us work against Vanguard and with the Rikti, or just in our own interests. Have some hero specific contacts as well. (Alternate ways in for either side would help too... but that's just cosmetic. I mean, sabotaging a Vanguard plan than hopping home through their own portal... ballsy, but not very practical.)

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It flew over my head before, but I finally realised what the Vanguard situation reminds me of - Project: Destiny. Basically, you enter a zone and immediately it assume that you're working for (for, not with) the overarching organisation in it - in this instance Vanguard. All conceptual freedom as to what you actually fight for goes out the window as you become just another "suit" for Vanguard.

I don't mean that we should work FOR the Rikti. Their invasions supposed to be a global threat. However, sabotaging Vanguard's efforts, profiting off their mistakes, selling their secrets and stealing their stuff feels like what villains should be doing. Yes, somehow they need to help stop the Rikti, but they can do that without help from Vanguard. Maybe work a Restructurist splinter cell that will see its influence diminish if Hro renews the actual war? Remember what Requiem's letter said pre-Council? "I helped you stop Ubelmann, because if the Axis powers had won the war, then my 5th Column would never have become as great as it is and I'd still be someone's lap dog. Better that my ideological masters lose if I keep my power." It would make sense that a Restructurist Rikti leader (maybe even U'kon), would act like he's helping Hro resume his war, but would also be conspiring to ultimately foil his efforts. Is it better to be master of an expeditionary force, or the pawn in a galactic empire?

There's also the matter of how villains would then get Vanguard gear. Well, originally I couldn't think of a way, but then I remembered a game that handled this perfectly - Gothic 2. There, you had three choices - becoming a Fire Mage, joining the Paladins or joining the Mercenaries. If you join the Paladins, you get powerful armour issued, a sword made for you, which you then imbue with the tears of Ilmater (I believe). If you join the Fire Mages, you get taught magic and eventually drink the tears, giving you more power. If you join the mercenaries, then their blacksmith teaches you how to forge enchanted weapons. The net result is the same, but you gain your eventual power in three conceptually separate ways.

So why not do the same for the War Zone? Suppose this Rikti splinter cell gets dibs on whatever is stolen from Vanguard stockpiles with every attack the Rikti make? Then you can potentially get Vanguard stuff (armour and powers) from them. It would both let you move around more freely as you look more like a Vanguard soldier, and also give you more power. So why shouldn't the Rikti just give you Rikti tech? Well, they have to remain covert, right? If Hro notices that equipment is missing, and then his soldiers report seeing villains running around with brand new Rikti tech, then wouldn't that put the conspirators in a bind? By giving out Vanguard stuff, they keep their secret and, even better, the villains they send out can't be connected to them, because they're using Vanguard gear and should look like they work for Vanguard.

That would also keep Khur'rekt in the game and making sense. He'd still be lobbying for the restructurists on the up and up, but could secretly be working for the conspirators. That way it makes sense that Recluse and the humans would deal with him one day and fight his supposed masters the next. We've already seen that the Rikti are factionalised. Heroes make friends with the Traditionalist who fight against the overall Rikti threat, so shouldn't it make sense for villains to make friends with the Restructurists splinter cell that conspires against the overall Rikti threat?

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I was complaining about the part of I10, but I feel I should clarify that personally I LOVED I10. I like the RWZ, and I enjoyed the invasions. I honestly wish they were still going on.

The RWZ is a bit less than Project Destiny though for one reason. In the story, the RWZ is locked off to all but Vanguard personelle and people helping them. To get in, you get called in by a recruiter (doing the Hey X, we need your help), go through a Vanguard base, and use a Vanguard teleporter to get into the Vanguard base in the RWZ. You run a "welcome to Vanguard" arc then, and join the fight.

The choice you make for it is right there in the beginning. It tells you what is going on, that is where you make your choice. The mission text could be diversified, and that'd be awesome. An alternative way into the RWZ could be awesome, but then I10 would be further away than I14 and we'd still be waiting for it.

So the story is written fine with a nice "doing this means joining vanguard, who is accepting help from all comers". A few missions for other things, maybe not sabotaging Vanguard but like "Instead of destroying the Rikti tech, claim it and bring it to us here"

but in general RWZ was good, just needed more polish and work to not be a Blue zone that villains could access.

Personally, I think it would make a ton of sense if, when I10 hit, Kuhr'rekt suddenly said "So long, suckers!" and teleported right out of Grandville. After all, Hro'Dtohz's plans involve burning the whole planet and everything on it down to ashes. Any smart Rikti wouldn't be hanging around like that.

i have always found that cov is more thought out then coh games wise but my big thing is teh shadow shards it is anotehr demention why can't villains go there we have a time portal in grandville

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shadow shards it is anotehr demention

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Somehow I think this is an appropriate spelling.

There are some missions in the Shadow Shard for villains. They're pretty much restricted to a single island though. I'm not sure opening up the Shard to villains as a zone would make it any more appealing than it is to heroes. Even if you add in some new story arcs, enough people are going to be turned off by the movement problems that the story arc activity would probably dry up quickly.

Personally, I enjoy the Shard, but all of my characters can fly.

I wouldn't mind getting a chance to run around the shard with my villain (who can also fly). If it is anything like the missions we have for it, even without fly I have no problem hitting the geysers. Hey, I made it to 50, Grandville and all, without a travel power. Bad terrain doesn't bother me that much. I think a lot of players take the awesomeness of the travel powers for granted, and are too used to having them. I come from games where you don't have them, so....

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that's not quite as epic as wrighting up a fanfic about having to farm behemoths to prevent the end of the world.

But it's close.

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Or farming extra-dimensional mobsters.

Thing is, Recluse WAS allied to the Rikti, untill they ATTACKED HIS ISLES.

Also, individual villains have the choice of working for Khur' or not. Kind of like they have the choice of working for Vanguard or not.
Working for Khur' gets you Rikti weapons and equiptment. Working for Vanguard gets you Vanguard weapons and equiptment.
A savvy villain could work for Khur' and get his tech, then betray him and work for Vanguard, getting THEIR tech as well, which is rather Villain-like IMO.

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Villains get an issue that gives them Grandville and levels 40-50. Heros get 2 issues that give them radio missions and Faultline because they got ignored. Meanwhile CoV still looks like it did at release.

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This was one issue. Faultline and radio missions/safeguards were in the same issue.

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Thing is, Recluse WAS allied to the Rikti, untill they ATTACKED HIS ISLES.

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And like any super-powerful villain, he immediately ran inside his tower and locked the door, and no one's heard from him since.

Seriously, what does he think about the fact that his "Destined Ones" are running off to join the Vanguard and play around in Paragon City?

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Thing is, Recluse WAS allied to the Rikti, untill they ATTACKED HIS ISLES.

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And like any super-powerful villain, he immediately ran inside his tower and locked the door, and no one's heard from him since.

Seriously, what does he think about the fact that his "Destined Ones" are running off to join the Vanguard and play around in Paragon City?

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You'd have to ask him directly.

Which means that unless this is actually addressed in-storyline, there's no reason to even care.