Why do the devs hate COV?

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I agree, I doubt anything like that would happen. I was just stating that it wouldn't bother me at all.

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Yeah, me neither.
I always seem to have plenty to do blue side not even counting Oroboros....the only reason I'd notice if they skipped an issue is the guaranteed firestorm of protest here on the forums. =P

The only redside content that would get me exited is a merged market. It would be great to dust off my villains and update them for the modern age.

As it has been brought up many times, the devs do not see CoV has a full game. They see it as an expansion. This only proves the point of the red side players who want more content.

Because CoV is not considered it's own entity, but merely an add-on to CoH, no further work need *** be done to it in the dev's mind. Obviously, if people who play CoV want CoH content, they should simply play CoH. After all, CoV is just another aspect of CoH, therefore everyone already has access to both side, everyone already has access to all of the content, it's done. There's no more need to add new content to CoV than there is to add new content to King's Row.

And that mindset is a big problem. They are not the same game, they are not treated as the same game. You cannot even compare this to "other faction-based MMOs" because other faction-based MMOs are still in the same world entirely. Someone from one faction CAN go directly to the other faction, PVP etc. Don't get me wrong, this is NOT something I want to see CoX become. Its bad enough how many "villain" style characters - names/costumes/descriptions/themes/etc. are in Paragon City. Not to mention that PvP in this game is pretty poorly done. It would be a nightmare if suddenly all zones were PvP. Even without PvP, many heroes seeing a villain in their city would find it immersion breaking. The game is simply not designed for it, and would take some major retooling to get it to work right.

Which leaves some characters without being able to access some content. That in itself is not a bad thing, I think there SHOULD be exclusive content. But there should be a more even distribution of exclusive content. Heroes need mission types that are heroic, stuff villains won't do. Likewise, villains need their own mission type, gameplay features, that simply aren't heroic. And there should NOT be an alternate version created for the other side, such as Safeguards to compare to Mayhem Missions.

But CoV is still missing some of the basics. Yea, there's a lot of talk about VEATs being released soon. Too little, too late. It's been two years, we should have had them no later than I9. Hell, they SHOULD have been in I8. But now they're talking about not having them until I12, maybe even I13. Meanwhile, to support the SEPARATED GAMES idea, the devs themselves have continued to keep CoV characters from unlocking the Hero ATs.

I said it before: It was the heroes who cried about I7 that make it so that now, neither side can get good, unique content. You spoiled it for everyone else. Now all we can get is half-[censored] shared content becuase "it's all one game anyway".

Finally, as for the straw man that blue siders as so font of bringing up - that they don't want to see a full CoV dedicated issue.. NOBODY HAS BEEN SUGGESTING IT. Nobody wants to see heroes be completely slighted. They need SOMETHING added every issue as well. They need new content just like anyone else. But we on the villain side do need to be caught up. It's been two years since launch, more than enough time to add exclusive content to CoV to compare to the exclusive content to CoH. There have been enough issues that if they had added just ONE full zone every issue, we'd have a second major zone path by now. There has DEFINITELY been more than enough time and updates to add enough strike forces to cover the gap. But if any of that were added, you'd hear the heroes come to the board in droves and complain that villains got something new and they didn't get a zone or task force build just for them and it's sooooooooooooooooooo unfair that not every scrap of code made for this game isn't entirely dedicated to them and them alone.

City of Villains still has it's own .exe. It still has it's own title screen. it still has it's own characters, it's own content, it's own game. We are not just another update you damn heroes got for your game.

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Well, heaven forbid a hero should purchase something from a villain and the villain should make a profit off the hero. I'd roll my smiley eyes if I could.

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The anonymity of internet purchases sees people making profit form others with whom they share no moral qualities all the time. Why would an anonymous black market bid system or a consignment shop be any different? I don't remember the last time I asked about a craftsman's moral qualities in a consignment shop. "Well, I may buy this dresser... but... was the carpenter a christian? I need to know!"

In any case, I think RP immersion is a poor justification for leaving a portion of the game's pop in the lurch.

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It might be too late to fix, but if the markets had been cross sides as well as cross server---

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It's never too late to fix. Every time I start a new alt with no cash hero side and have 200K by lvl 12, 400k+ by lvl 20, and so on, I demonstrate that success on either side's market has nothing to do with starting capital - the game provides starting capital through regular play.

I simply don't do influence transfers. The system works hero side.

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I simply don't do influence transfers. The system works hero side

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The only time an influence transfer might be needed is if you wanna IO out a lower level character. Other than that influence is stupid easy to come by.

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City of Villains still has it's own .exe. It still has it's own title screen. it still has it's own characters, it's own content, it's own game. We are not just another update you damn heroes got for your game.

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For the last 3 weeks I've been playing CoV exclusively. Everytime I launch the game I click on my CoH shortcut....does what the .exe is called matter?

The fact that launching from either .exe allows me access to both seems to show they're the same game.

"I think RP immersion is a poor justification"

Oh really? According to positron, our crap poor patron powers are based off RP. Thanks for being "forced to roleplay". Guess we can always respec out for a new patron... ooops no we cant!.

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As it has been brought up many times, the devs do not see CoV has a full game.

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I only wish "bringin something up" made it true.

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City of Villains still has it's own .exe. It still has it's own title screen. it still has it's own characters, it's own content, it's own game

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Lol... two-faction MMOs featuring spash-screens by faction, content unique to side, and at least one or two classes unique to side is pretty par for the course, man. You just described WoW.

And if WoW had needed to test the market for its game concept (which it didn't, since it's game concept has been a seller for decades) by releasing its core portion first, it would likely still have an .exe for hordeside tucked away soemwhere.

Lookie here:

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Meanwhile, to support the SEPARATED GAMES idea, the devs themselves have continued to keep CoV characters from unlocking the Hero ATs

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If being unable to unlock the other faction's exclusive ATs indicates seperate games, you do realize that almost every faction MMO out there is a seperate game? Bad deduction.

This:
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It was the heroes who cried about I7

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the straw man that blue siders as so font of bringing up

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heroes come to the board in droves and complain

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... work a little harder to divide us into two camps! Do it! Anyone who stands against an idea for red side must be a blue sider! Anyone who does vice versa must be an evil red! The sneetches have stars on their bellies!
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We are not just another update you damn heroes got for your game.

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Nope, you're just another wee portion of the single game we all play, and it's weird arsed personalized attitudes like the above the bury the relevant points made by those of us interested in addressign content disparity and instead move the discussion into the schoolyard realm.

"You damn heroes..."

You guys trying to promote this us. vs. them mindset are better than the Horde vs. Alliance types, and they've MASTERED the art of taking in-game facgtion vs. faction to a personal realm.

Edit: misquoted you.

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"I think RP immersion is a poor justification"

Oh really? According to positron, I quoted this sentence out of context and removed a portion of it to make it seem as if I had a point!!1111!one!1

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Exactly

But the fix aside, I thought Posi's citing RP was pretty weak. I find sort of non-sequitur that you'd support the idea and try to use it as further justification for keeping options away from villains.

Really, B_S (illustrative!), you started off strong but you're getting your intentions mixed: merged markets mean MORE goodies for villains, not less. Try to keep the flame bait on track or people will get confused.

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Nope, you're just another wee portion of the single game we all play, and it's weird arsed personalized attitudes like the above the bury the relevant points made by those of us interested in addressign content disparity and instead move the discussion into the schoolyard realm.

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Perfect response, Emnity.

This is one game. I play it all. I prefer redside.

*Now STOP. The 3 sentences I just typed are not tied to what I'm about to type.*

Villain side market is broken. PPPs suck, were badly designed and are in NO WAY better than APPs.

Merge the markets. Do a total rehash of the PPPs.

*STOP*

The give the freaking graphics engine an overhaul for the ONE GAME we have here.

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Why would the devs knowingly ignore CoV?

It doesn't make sense to me.

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Better question:

"Why would some players style the devs as "hating" and ignoring CoV?"

A much easier question to answer: look at the post results.

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As it has been brought up many times, the devs do not see CoV has a full game. They see it as an expansion. This only proves the point of the red side players who want more content.

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Except that's not exactly what's been brought up. From all I've seen, the developers don't treat CoV as an expansion to CoH, but as an expansion to the City of franchise. City of heroes was the first expansion to the franchise, City of Villains is the second.

Then again, my claim is just as anecdotal.

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Meanwhile, to support the SEPARATED GAMES idea, the devs themselves have continued to keep CoV characters from unlocking the Hero ATs.

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As they have kept hero characters from using the CoV ATs. Kheldians are just one more AT CoH-side, and not a very good one, at that. Why they weren't just cloned over and called Nictus I'll never know.

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Finally, as for the straw man that blue siders as so font of bringing up - that they don't want to see a full CoV dedicated issue.. NOBODY HAS BEEN SUGGESTING IT. Nobody wants to see heroes be completely slighted. They need SOMETHING added every issue as well. They need new content just like anyone else.

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This is false on face value, as evidenced by this very thread. Several people have suggested a villain-only Issue, myself among them. Several other people have said they're perfectly OK with it. There may have been a few people who said CoH should still get SOME content, I don't remember. That's hardly as one-sided a standpoint as you make it out to be.

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City of Villains still has it's own .exe. It still has it's own title screen. it still has it's own characters, it's own content, it's own game. We are not just another update you damn heroes got for your game.

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Semantics, but... No, City of Villains does not have its own executable. It has an alternative executable for those who wish start out with a different skin on the start menu, which is just as easily achieved by logging in a villain and logging out. Furthermore, CoV doesn't have its own characters. Both heroes and villains are dumped in the same common pool of characters, differentiated only by AT which, as we've seen before, is only a technical limitation. By far the biggest difference is where a character is in terms of zones and what /cov value their client is using at the time.

Which also brings me to why they are not two separate games. The single meaningful difference between City of Heroes and City of Villains is that City of Heroes uses /cov 0 and City of Villains uses /cov 1. Everything else is tied to that and distributed thematically. The only reason hero-only content is hero-only is because the developers have forbidden villains from entering and the only reason villain-only content is villain-only is because heroes have been prevented from entering. Claiming otherwise is clinging to semantics. It is the same single game. "Damn heroes" have nothing to do with it.

I sincerely hope that this notion of two games doesn't hold for long. It's the relic of a strange decision made by the development team. If City of Villains were sold as a bundle with City of Heroes at launch, such that even when you bought "just one game" you got both sides anyway, this argument would never have existed. It's one game with two factions who are forbidden from visiting each other's zones, with content developed for it as a game, not a collection of small parts.

Yes, villains have less content currently, there is no denying that. I just fail to see it as some great injustice. It's just a pocket shot to the developers as some of the concepts the game supports are put into a world that's in need of more content. But there is no more "unfairness" to the current content issues than there was to Tankers and Scrapper having only 4 primaries/secondaries (respectively). And I don't think it would have been fair to claim that City of Melee has been neglected for a straight-up three years.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Because it has to be done:

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This is one game. I play it all. I prefer redside.

*Now STOP....

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COLLABORATE AND LISTEN! BILL IS BACK WITH A BRAND NEW EDITION!

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... The 3 sentences I just typed are not tied to what I'm about to type.*

Villain side market is broken. PPPs suck, were badly designed and are in NO WAY better than APPs.

Merge the markets. Do a total rehash of the PPPs.

*STOP*

The give the freaking graphics engine an overhaul for the ONE GAME we have here.

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Wait... Bill... are you trying to say that a person can ask for addressal to issues unique to the faction sides yet NOT BE SINGLE SIDE PLAYER!?

Ye jest, sir... surely ye jest. By this logic, many of the folks who object to a blue or red item of some sort might be doing so out of GAME concern, not faction rivalry! And those who wrote them off as a mindless side-supporter would be... nuts!

Blasphemer. Your words do not gel at all with the divisive nature of the thread. How can I hate mine enemy when HE IS MEEEEE!?

Maybe this is why NC is hiring alot more people for the game? To bring more to the table for villains? Hey we can dream you know!

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It has an alternative executable for those who wish start out with a different skin on the start menu

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Same executable. Same code base. Same game.

If CoV and CoH really are just one in the same to some of you, then why are you fighitng so hard against more CoV specific features?

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Kheldians are just one more AT CoH-side, and not a very good one, at that.

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You're wrong.

Not villans.

Its to bring more to the table for everyone.

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If CoV and CoH really are just one in the same to some of you, then why are you fighitng so hard against more CoV specific features?

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Ah but that isn't what is happening. People are stomping you into the ground for the claim that COV is the abused hated step child that never gets anything etc etc etc.

Pretty much all of the people posting have stated that they would be perfectly happy seeing more things for COV. But it can be asked for and discussed without the angst. If you look back you won't see the claim made that COV should receive no updates except from people supporting the angsty view.

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Wait... Bill... are you trying to say that a person can ask for addressal to issues unique to the faction sides yet NOT BE SINGLE SIDE PLAYER!?

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Sweet, sweet, Satan, I think I AM!!!!

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Ye jest, sir... surely ye jest. By this logic, many of the folks who object to a blue or red item of some sort might be doing so out of GAME concern, not faction rivalry! And those who wrote them off as a mindless side-supporter would be... nuts!

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It's... a possibility.

Terra, would you support that additions from this point on that left the current "blue side" exactly as is while updating only red side?

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"I think RP immersion is a poor justification"

Oh really? According to positron, our crap poor patron powers are based off RP.

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Which proves En's point.

One questing. This is not sarcasm, just honest curiosity. How can any one say these are separate games, and should stay separate games, then n another post say the markets should be merged, which would make it even clearer that they are the same game?

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If it's one game with 2 factions, then an issue devoted to either side (including the red side) shouldn't cause a stir on the forums. But it did, and it would again if the devs did that.

So please, those of you that aren't for one side or the other, that know that this is one game, please tell me why that is.

Because it can't be both ways. Either it's one game and ANY update is a good update, or it's two games that share similarities and zones and updating one side only is a bad thing. (Well, updating the red side only is a bad thing.)

If the devs made another Issue 7 you're not going to complain because it's just another update, right?

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Terra, would you support that additions from this point on that left the current "blue side" exactly as is while updating only red side?

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I don't know about Terra, but I'd say no. Even though I'm predominantly a red-sider.

Mostly because then psycho/irrational/emo-blue siders would pop out of the woodwork like some red-siders in this thread have.

Villain side DOES need some work. There is no denying that. But making the IDIOTIC, IRRATIONAL, BASELESS accusation that the devs hate the red side will not get anything done.

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It has an alternative executable for those who wish start out with a different skin on the start menu

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Same executable. Same code base. Same game.

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The client installed from the CoV disks comes with a CityofVillains.exe and a CovUpdater.exe and the client installed from the CoH disks comes with a CityofHeroes.exe and a CohUpdater.exe. I think there were people running around with a CohBeta.exe until a while ago. Different installations call their executables differently and fire up a different skin, but you are correct in practice - they are the same files for all intents and purposes.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.