Why do the devs hate COV?
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-06 17:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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CoV isn't villainous enough, and attempts to make it so end up in ghastly unpleasant stories, such as Peter Thermai and Westin Phipps.
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What on earth is wrong with Peter and Westin? I love those arcs.
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Haven't done Westin's arc, but I love Thermari's
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Sooner or later the developers will figure out that writing missions briefings to sound like we're working for ourselves, rather than for the one big bad, is an easy step that would improve things tremendously.
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I find it hard to really blame the developers for this one. What we really need is more branching-style story arcs, where your choices actually matter. And that would be staggeringly difficult to retrofit into the existing system. If there's ever a CoH 2 though...
@Mindshadow
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Well, if it's content that doesn't really fit the story line very well then it's not just a matter of "not liking it personally." If the red side needs more help, it should get it. Period.
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Well, while I'll admit to the existence of that particular problem, it's actually little more than the symptom of a larger problem to behold CoV-side - the story sucks. The overarching story of the game just isn't all that good, things considered. Yes, it's a good story in and of itself, but not good enough to define an actual world for players to take part in. CoV isn't villainous enough, and attempts to make it so end up in ghastly unpleasant stories, such as Peter Thermai and Westin Phipps.
As compared to City of Heroes, the world of City of Villains is much, much more rigidly defined, to the point where almost no new content is really enough to "make sense." Yes, helping save the world isn't the most villainous thing in the world, but it is a staple of villainy when the need arises, and is as such perfectly acceptable. But in a game that doesn't give us the ability to "Rul ze vorld!" that content is just out of place.
If we had the option to build our own doomsday device, build our own evil empire and launch invasion strikes on the world's largest cities, take part in open warfare in the city streets and so on and so forth, then hey, a little good will won't kill us, right? Instead the bulk of the game is just one big mercenary job, with little hints of everything else tucked away in out-of-the-way places. Mayhems offer some destruction, Bases offer some empire-building, PvP zones offer a feeling of open warfare, but by and large the game just isn't very villainous.
If I were looking to make the game more villainous, however, the one thing I'd not try to fix is make it more evil. CoV is plenty evil enough, but evil is not the same as villainous. Our villains are basically relegated to being angsty, obnoxious grown men who live in their parent's basement and after they're done painting skulls and listening to death metal, we're sent to clean up the garage and mow the lawn.
I think CoV ended up with an over-abundance of "Go do that for me, bub!" missions. They sort of work for CoH, because reacting to threats is a very large part of what heroes do, but for CoV it just ends up like lots of busywork for a lowbrow mercenary. Villainous, yes, but not by much. "I answer to no-one!" missions would have been really great, but the very setting of the game makes this improbable. Where heroes exist in a city where they can do pretty much anything they want without having to constantly kowtow to, say, City Hall, or at least not do so in an obtrusive way, villains are constantly reminded that they're living in Lord Recluse's back yard, doing his dirty work and looking up to be his chosen. Blarg!
So, yeah, the new content is the latest in a long line of content that doesn't fit the villain theme. So what else is new? What the side needs more than "just new content," is content that actually contributes to the environment and the settings. Sooner or later the developers will figure out that writing missions briefings to sound like we're working for ourselves, rather than for the one big bad, is an easy step that would improve things tremendously.
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Superb post, Sam. It's very close to my own feelings about the CoV storyline.
Here here.
That's why I still want to see Instant Instances. Villains just doing whatever they want instead of waiting for a newspaper or contact to tell them what to do.
Peter Thermari should be the next leader of Arachnos IMHO and Westin should be his twisted lap-dog. Thermari is so much more devious and methodical than Lord Recluse, I would be much more fearful of him in charge. One more thing I noticed in this game is that there are no executions for failure.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Spelunker is the one that I was thinking about. Three contacts magic origin. Since I'm a Techie, I have always missed them.
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You don't have to be Magic to get the mission. I've done it on any number of Tech characters.
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I am saying that I missed them. Not that you cannot get them on other origins. I looked at the text that says they deal in "x'"type missions/enhancements. Not knowing any better, I always went with people offering tech stuff.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
Threads like this that are coming up more and more often are why it was a horrid idea to combine the two boards. I am hesitant to post in another of these threads because I have been told that no matter what I say it is condescending, or rude, or a combination of the two, this is an attempt to not be either.
For me I would be fine with a 60/40 or 70/30 (red/blue) focus in an issue or more. What gets me angry is the 98/2% suggestion. It is possible to make an issue fun for both sides. I still say they should be merged, or cross over put in in the least.
SG missions ARE a joke compared to mayhem missions. When I can go to the isles and tear [censored] up then they will be cool. To be a copy of what Red got in mayhem missions, a hero would need to travel to the isles, tear up a small instanced zone and capture some wanted criminal, then there would be an arguement for what red side had being given to blue side.
I think shared content is what we will be seeing from now on, it allows them to split the fun for the least amount of work, and give a better product on the whole. What we may see is more moraly gray, or even evil slanted mission descriptions. Which after beta or reading on the boards many will never know. I still maintain that many people don't even read mission descriptions, or if they did them on a team and never do them again don't even see the mission descriptions.
Hazard zones suck and always have. They were used a lot in the beginning, but once the way mission bonuses were given they just died. I remember fighting for spawns in Boom town during the second week of launch, no it is dead. I really don't think adding anything that craptastic to CoV would give it a better draw, now something like Croata and Striga would be great!
As of now I don't play red side often, I don't like being a villain, but it is more because of my PC. When I get my new rig built I will play it a lot more.
Also there are things that both sides have that the other wants, I am undecided as to if that is a good thing or a bad thing.
This subject is like regen, it has reached an almost religious point in the way people feel about it. I am not sure anything can be said to those on either side to sway them, some get angry about it and let it be known (I have), and others like Terra approach it in a clam analytical manner.
All in all nothing good seems to ever come of threads like this one.
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
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CoV isn't villainous enough, and attempts to make it so end up in ghastly unpleasant stories, such as Peter Thermai and Westin Phipps.
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What on earth is wrong with Peter and Westin? I love those arcs.
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Haven't done Westin's arc, but I love Thermari's
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Westin Phipps (Grandville, 40-45) is the only contact I've run into yet that feels more villainous than Peter Themari (P.O. or CAD, I forget which, 10-15 IIRC).
And I love them both.
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Terra, as reasonable as you are, if gamers don't want to suspend their disbelief to make a point, then there's no force in the world that can suspend that disbelief.
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True but I'm trying to make the point to them that when you play a computer game you are limited in how much things can be stretched. A human gamemaster can adapt the game to the player if he or she wants or can simply tell them no you can't play that. A computer can't tell you that your character doesn't fit the games world.
Essentially what is happening is that COV is villainy lite and some people want to play villains going off to do their own things irregardless of what the games story is. That is where the conflict and claims that RWZ and Ouroboros are not content for them come from. Because they are trying to play a different game than is being provided they are unhappy with the game that is in front of them.
There are plenty of things that need to be done to improve COV even if you don't change the metastory. First the advancement path is to narrow. Adding Burke was a first good move, but there needs to be additional paths at higher levels. I do expect to see that coming, particularly as the new developers are brought on staff. But it is a legitimate issue that could be worked on.
It would be nice to see more villainous opportunities for characters added. And I don't mean in the kick puppies and randomly kill people way. I mean in the suave take over the world type way. But that is something that has to happen within the game engines limitation and again we have the realities of a computer controlled world to contend with. I could go on there are lots of improvements for villainside but that isn't the topic of this thread. The topic is why is COV abused and ignored which is patently untrue.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
They only like blueberry pie.
*mm blueberry.... my favorite.*
I hate apple and cherry pie.
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CoV isn't villainous enough, and attempts to make it so end up in ghastly unpleasant stories, such as Peter Thermai and Westin Phipps.
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What on earth is wrong with Peter and Westin? I love those arcs.
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Nothing is wrong with the arcs themselves. What I find wrong about them is that they are an extreme fringe attempt to counterbalance the blandness of the bulk of the rest of the game, and as such come off, to me at least, as strongly overdone. It's like the game was was all teddy bears and stuffed ponies, so they threw in a couple bloody chain flails to sort of balance thins out.
I don't do Thermai or Phipps as a playstyle choice, and for the most part the game has enough content to let me. However, I do recognise the need the game has for such storylines at the same time. But they and more like them aren't the way to make the game feel more villainous, because they too are just one aspect of what it means to be a villain. Overdoing them too much will make them as bland as the current mercenary crap that the game is overflowing with.
Off the top of my head, self-serving missions are all but non-existent in the game, short of maybe playing Tavish Bell for a fool, stealing his stuff and blaming other people for it. Which is good, we just need more of it. Come to think of it, Newspaper missions were probably made to do that, but they are SO small-time it's not even funny. "Arachnos has been cracking down on the Sky Raiders lately. Smashing some of their could earn you some brownie points with the spiders." Sign me up!
Actual self-serving story arcs would be good. Where's my Igor contact? Well, maybe Willy Wheeler counts, I suppose...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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These are the people who ask for merged markets.
These and the people who actually understand economics.
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These are the people who don't care if villains get shafted by the grossly inflated prices that heroes charge and are willing to pay for who knows how long before the markets come anywhere close to "equilibrium".
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Prices are higher because there is more item availability and therefore more money to change hands: same economic experience, but more selection in purchase. Everything costs more, but everything sells for more. It works out.
Look at it this way: if you had no hero alts and started hero side tomorrow, you'd have no issue jumping into the market - the first decent drop you find merits enough infl to afford those high prices.
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No one on the villainside pays 10,000 inf for BRASS.
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No? How about 20,000 for a Demonic Blood Sample?
Because Villain side does not have the players to support the market, the low overall number of items for sale makes it EXTREMELY easy to corner the market on items in 60 seconds, jack the price up and sit back while you reap heaven - I've seen it happen 3 seperate and distinct times this month alone - you're selling or buying and suddenly the number of a salvage starts plummeting, the price skyrockets and the supply bottoms out and ... next thing you know... *poof* 20,000 for a Demonic Blood Sample because some salvage baron only had to buy 200 to corner the market.
Now, this is smart use of the economy, I can't fault the practise of smart play... BUT! Villain side's watery lack of item availability means that doing it is laughably easy: targetting the villain economy with a market buy-out is as simple as lucking into one proc IO to sell for a base amount of cash.
What I am saying is: "Villain only" players (lord help them) are incorrectly intimidated by the blue side cash amounts becuase they're not looking at the whole of the economy - those prices are high because interaction on the hero side market generates that kind of cash - and, beyond that, the anemic state of villain side supply makes everyone over there the of anyone with 1 mill on hand and 30 minutes to waste cornering the market and leveraging a common salvage item into sky-high prices.
That's easy to do on a market that sees 200 of something in moderate demand available on average.
Less so hero side, where there are 1,200 of that same something for sale.
Give all players a fair shake, including those who choose to limit themselves to half the game we pay to play.
I have to say it is sort of ironic - as a player who actually plays the entire product rather than pieces of it, I am never in the position of demanding "more" for half the game... however, this is one area where the sides can be equaled out quite easily and, due to a misconception on the way influence interacts with the market, this is an area where piecemeal players fight tooth and claw to stop improvement.
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Threads like this that are coming up more and more often are why it was a horrid idea to combine the two boards. I am hesitant to post in another of these threads because I have been told that no matter what I say it is condescending, or rude, or a combination of the two, this is an attempt to not be either.
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Combining the forums actually decreased the number of such threads for some reason. Used to be the CoV forum was only ever used for people to complain about the injustice and little else.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Here we go. Can there never be a civil discussion without the waaa waaa crap?
you asked what short end, I am showing you. You refuse to aknowledge it and go the inflamatory route.
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::sigh:: No you showed me nothing of the sort. I refute your claim of villains receiving the short end and instead state this more appears to crying and making a fuss when it isn't productive.
I keep stating there are problems and issues that can be worked on but this approach, particularly claiming that villains are getting the short end of the stick, or that villains are hated, or any other claim along those lines isn't a productive approach. Particularly when it doesn't hold up to analysis.
Now your perspective maybe that villains get the short end, but you need to make clear this is your opinion, not state it as a fact.
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Heroes were created, missions, zones and badges were added afterward. Those heroes missed the stuff that was added afterward. Yes? No?
Heroes have more weapons to customize than villains. Yes? No?
RWZ tells the story of what happend to Hero One and crew. Yes? No?
I haven't even touched on the issues that show discrepancies between the two sides. If I were to start there, you would have to get a large wedge of cheese.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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Threads like this that are coming up more and more often are why it was a horrid idea to combine the two boards. I am hesitant to post in another of these threads because I have been told that no matter what I say it is condescending, or rude, or a combination of the two, this is an attempt to not be either.
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Combining the forums actually decreased the number of such threads for some reason. Used to be the CoV forum was only ever used for people to complain about the injustice and little else.
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But did they generate the massive flame wars now that the casual browsers see them? I rarely went to the Red boards because of that, now that these threads are in every one's face they are gettign more flames, and in some cases fueling the fires. Guess I should have been more clear about that.
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
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Threads like this that are coming up more and more often are why it was a horrid idea to combine the two boards. I am hesitant to post in another of these threads because I have been told that no matter what I say it is condescending, or rude, or a combination of the two, this is an attempt to not be either.
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Combining the forums actually decreased the number of such threads for some reason. Used to be the CoV forum was only ever used for people to complain about the injustice and little else.
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That's a bit biased. What the red side had was a lot of CoV specific threads with very, and I mean very, little of the fluff we see here that really has absolutely nothing to do with the game. "How would your character do against the Hulk?" for example.
CoV had some threads that had a lot of complaining, sure. Threads dedicated to the RSF and patron powers. Any mention of those brings a swarm of complaints regardless. It was a slower moving forum as well: a lack of fluff threads and a smaller player-base that was really interested in it. That doesn't mean there were no useful or informative threads there.
Folding@Home
Photoshop doesn't make a good artist.
(Hey, Look, Zyph, I found the correct thread!)
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It's a sad situation for those piecemeal players - new players coming in under the new "full game" bundle offer aren't going to buy into the illusion of two games - just like most other faction MMOs, they're going to see it as what it is; a 2 faction MMO. So the ranks of the piecemeal players, while they will inevitably grow because there are bound to be players who prefer one side to the other, they won't "swell" with the overall game pop, they're always going to be a fringe voice.
And there's usually nothing wrong with being a fringe voice, but in this case the fringe is centerred on a point of view that the devs don't share, namely, that of villain faction being "it's own game" and more deserving of singular attention in order to "catch up" with the other portion, rather than the whole product, with a dash of the strange yet tenacious idea that the devs "hate", or in any case are assigning a personal emotion, to some of their paying subscribers.
But the devs have moved away from that idea. They update the game as a whole and content becomes more and more focused on things shared by both sides - which piecemeal players see not as a boon to both but as a slight to one... becuase their insistance on two seperate games sees one of those games starting with more content and the other with less, rather than one product with "a lot".
The more time goes by, the more firmly "whole" the game becomes, but honestly the nail was put in the coffin with the bundled full-access release - at least in the former state of things a player clinging to only a portion of the game could say "I can't afford the rest".
Now it devolves to personal preference, and you can see a lot of that motivation in this thread, which had a large portion of its thesis devolve to "I don't like the way the RWZ storyline interacts with my RP decisions" - a valid point, but hardly a game-driving issue.
The more time passes, the harder it is going to be for piecemeal players to light a fire of concern under anyone's rear that the portion of the game they choose to limit themselves to is more deserving of new content or changes than the product as a whole.
Happily, inevitably, new content will inevitably fall to that portion of the game as they update the entire product, so in the process of pleasing the overall population they will unavoidably please at least some of those who play in certain areas - I am certain until we reach an undefinable par between the two concocted "sides" we'll see regular updates about how the devs "hate" some of the subscribers, but I don't think anyone takes that histrionic stuff seriously.
I do find this issue terribly interesting before. I've never encountered a similiar situation in another MMO, in which the product was complete only after the core design had been used as a living market test: it's allowed people to cling to one portion or the other while insisting it is its own distinct game unlike any other MMO I've seen. Eager to see how that ends up in watch-the-trainwreck sort of way.
As an afterthought: When it comes to piecemeal players, I think they represent an imprtant concern even if they are a fading breed - they represent a concern for maintaining strict flavor differences in factions, which is good in any game. There's a great urge to start off posts such as this with things like "Why do they HATE US!?!?" - silly in the extreme, naturally, and it sees people laugh off what might have at its core a valid point only because of a facile and simple minded/overdramatic summary - but then it;s followed by others shaking their heads and saying "See? We just can't get any dialogue started - we get heckled..."
No, it's not "you" that gets heckled, it's stuff like the OP - the idea that the devs hate a portion of paying customers is laughable. No use getting irate that no one will take it seriously.
However, when we see things like "I don't feel that the red side story lines cater enough to a villainous flavor" and "RWZ seems to cast a lot of the feel of being a villain aside entirely" - then *those* are some valid and good points. They need to be seen. Nothing wrong with giving a nod to evil.
I feel bad for piecemeal players being represented by stuff like the OP. There are valid flavor issues in both factions, they deserve to be heard, not buried under a pile of giggles.
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That's a bit biased. What the red side had was a lot of CoV specific threads with very, and I mean very, little of the fluff we see here that really has absolutely nothing to do with the game. "How would your character do against the Hulk?" for example.
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That... has everything to do with the game!
Lord when did this cease being a comic book fantasy RPG and become a spreadsheet?
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That's a bit biased. What the red side had was a lot of CoV specific threads with very, and I mean very, little of the fluff we see here that really has absolutely nothing to do with the game. "How would your character do against the Hulk?" for example.
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That... has everything to do with the game!
Lord when did this cease being a comic book fantasy RPG and become a spreadsheet?
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Folding@Home
Photoshop doesn't make a good artist.
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Threads like this that are coming up more and more often are why it was a horrid idea to combine the two boards. I am hesitant to post in another of these threads because I have been told that no matter what I say it is condescending, or rude, or a combination of the two, this is an attempt to not be either.
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Combining the forums actually decreased the number of such threads for some reason. Used to be the CoV forum was only ever used for people to complain about the injustice and little else.
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But did they generate the massive flame wars now that the casual browsers see them?
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Yeah. People who favored one side were always happy to run over to the other side to tell them to shaddap.
Honestly the combined forum has done away with a lot of that in general. The more the devs phase out the little window dressings that support the "us vs. them" ilusion, the sillier people feel trying to play into it.
Sadly, if you were able to see a lot of those threads, and this applies to both villain and hero forums, you'd have seen a neat trick:
Often the person saying "this issue is trivial, I can't believe you're inflating this...." in response to a "the devs hate us" thread or some such was a full-game player - they'd even say so in their first post to establish their motivation.
But if they were on a villain thread, they became a "blue sider" and if it was on a hero thread they became a "red sider". *Poof* just like magic. 
Happened to me a couple of times: I'd weigh in on a red side issue and if I didn't support it, I was "just another blue sider shouting them down" - never mind that I had been playing villains for months straight and hadn't touched a hero in ages.
People see what they need to see and the "us vs. them" game is far too entertaining to let a little reality get in your way.
Honestly, a lot of these guys really enjoy the drama of trying to force a division in sides - look at some of the posters who take every opportunity to cast one side or the other as whingers. Embarrassingly, there are a couple of really high post count peeps who do it, and they've been here long enough to know better. But all too often you'll see a poster presenting their "side's" point of view while summarizing the other side's as "Blah Blah Blah" or styling any disagreement as being censored or shouted down - these people feed the drama as much if not more than the side vs side fallacy its self - they have so much fun with the dynamic that they won't let it die.
And even here it is still a great post!
I think it fits the situation we have perfectly, I have never seen it as two separate games, but more of a game with a paid expansion. Just as I dont see the stand alone guild wars games as separate games.
I also think there will be less and less new players who do view them as two different games, but I see that as a good thing. As time goes on we will see less and less people unhappy with the free things they are given because they will see them as one game getting better, not one getting better and the other getting the shaft.
Really I hate to fall back on this cause it is a pretty crappy thing to say, but if the game makes a player as unhappy as some posters seem, it is time to find a new game. That is the one thing that holds true here and in a table top game, if you dont like the way the GM (Devs) run things, and playing it makes you unhappy, you leave that game. Sure try for a time to get them to see where you are coming from, and what you dislike, but if it doesnt change to suit you, leave. I dont to be mean, callous, or condescending, but short of buying NCsoft, and taking over CoX, there is not much you can do to fix what you dislike about this game.
I hate to see the CoX population shrink more than it has, but I also dont see how unhappy players will help it grow.
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
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Again just because you don't like the content doesn't invalidate it as new content. The Rikti and the Vanguard fit into the metastory of City of Villains. That your character is resisting that metastory and trying to play counter to it doesn't invalidate it as valid new content. You can scream that you hate and loath the new content all you want but it is still new content.
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In fairness, i10 actually introduced a conflicting metastory to the existing metastory:
i7: Arachnos is conducting negotiations with the Rikti Restructurist faction (Ambassador Kuhr'Rekt), as neither wish to see the Traditionalists come to peace with the rest of humanity.
i10: Restructurist Rikti are attacking Grandville! But Kuhr'Rekt is still there handing out missions to up-and-coming villains even as the bombs are falling.
So, meh. 
I haven't had the chance to read through all of the related text for the i11 Ouroborous TFs, so I can't really speak to how well they mesh with existing story.
That said, I as a primary villain player do not share Death_mage's level of angst to any significant degree (I admit to the occasional annoyance at perceived slights ), but it seems you are also getting perhaps a bit too emotionally invested in this argument. You're right: like any CRPG, City of Heroes / Villains has a backstory that is more or less etched in stone, and players who refuse to conform to that backstory are going to get agitated at times if they care at all about storylines. If people are utterly refusing to accept that fact, it is best to shake your head and move on rather than inflate your blood pressure by trying to convince them of what you feel to be the error of their ways.
Dang it Emnity, what is up with you and logic? Could you stop already, you are wrecking the theme of this thread!
Seriously I had not looked at it that way when it came to combining the boards, it makes good sence.
I also play both games, red less even though I like some of the ATs far better. I just dont get the same performance.
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
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Dang it Emnity, what is up with you and logic?
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Dude I cannot even be relied upon to keep my threads straight. I think I just posted a recipe for quiche on the PWNZ forum.
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Issue 9 The invention system and new Hami. Larger playerbase = more vibrant economy. Keeping Villains from accessing that rich market was a bad and shortsighted idea.
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Great idea if you want to see the villains screwed. Blue side had lots and lots and lots of people with billions of influence to burn. Villains would not have been able to compete with that.
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... until after the first round of selling off high-demand drops caused a significant portion of those billions to flow to the red side of the market.
Same as newcomers on Hero side. The same, frankly, as folks on (for example) Protector, trying to compete with the vast mob of people on (say) Freedom.
Or, those of us (like myself) who'd never had a 50, never had more than a million influence, but now have characters that (at level 30-something) have seen TENS of millions of influence pass through their hands.
At least on the market side of things, I agree with those saying it should have been "all one market" from the very first day.