Why do the devs hate COV?

And how longs the RSF been out? The Lab techs been bugged from day 1. If there was such a case in the STF, it woulda gotten fixed the first week.

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And how longs the RSF been out? The Lab techs been bugged from day 1. If there was such a case in the STF, it woulda gotten fixed the first week.

[/ QUOTE ]

Inaccurate, it likely would still be down as well. There are plenty of buggy COH missions.

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But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

List of Invention Guides

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No one on the villainside pays 10,000 inf for BRASS.

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Nobody needs to pay 10k for Brass on either side. Some may choose to, but anyone can get it quite easily for normal prices. Personally I pay 300-500inf heroside and usually get it within a few minutes, 24 hours at the most (well, I place a bid before I log around 9-10pm then I have my brass when I log back on next day around 6pm). Only time I pay more - and it's usually 1000-2000, not 10k - is if I want it right now with no waiting.

Fwiw, over the last 20 minutes I've been watching the brass prices and they've updated very frequently, with the prices ranging from quite a few sales at 10 each, most around 100-200, and some around 500-600. There's a lot of brass going through the hero market with prices fluctuating rapidly, but the prices fall low enough often enough that anyone can get them at reasonable prices in a reasonable period of time.

(btw, someone (not me ) paid 8k for Brass villainside while I was typing this - there were only 60 on sale, so I guess that was a "I want it right now" purchase, like what happens heroside)

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And how longs the RSF been out? The Lab techs been bugged from day 1. If there was such a case in the STF, it woulda gotten fixed the first week.

[/ QUOTE ]

Inaccurate, it likely would still be down as well. There are plenty of buggy COH missions.

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Perhaps, but you cannot say for sure. We don't have a high profile situation such as this that does require fixing on the hero side. But the FACT is that it has been broken for almost 2 years now on Villain side...

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You realize that, unless you can provide some direct evidence of those things actually being said by blue-side players, your "argument" here is nothing but pushing over a bunch of straw men? That's the kind of thing that makes people think "victim mentality."

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I have an odd idea over here: I keep imagining that half the people reading these posts are NOT children who have to be lead by the hand and have everything printed out in letters six inches high, and then shoved under their noses with a "HERE IT IS: LOOK!" underneath.

I keep imagining that half the people reading these posts do not have the memory-span of an ADHD child running on three hits of amphetamine and a shot of vodka; when will I learn?

In short, I expect people to be honest enough to admit to some stuff being such common knowledge/seen so often on these forums that one need not drag in a Supreme Court ruling everytime someone says.... pretty much anything. Bahahaha! I even make ME laugh, at the mere thought of such a silly expectation.

In short, I expect you to be smart enough - and honest enough - to not shout "straw man" about common forum knowledge, and to actually exert yourself in thinking up a cogent rebuttal other than "Nyah nyah, nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah."

I know that is foolish of me, but hope springs eternal and all that.

waitin' for more wit and wisdom re everyone playing CoV being a "VICTIM! ZOMG!!!":
Bad

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I've followed a few of the recent threads about CoV as far as my tolerance for ridiculous forum antics would allow, and don't seem to recall so much sentiment about how "CoV sucks." I do seem to recall plenty of people stating honest, well-thought-out reasons why they don't prefer to play on the redside, ranging from personal preference for heroic characters, the graphics intensive nature of the zones, and the general dismal aesthetic appeal, but I can't recall anyone just flat-out posting something like "CoV sucks."

So, really, if you can show me at least three posts like you describe then I'll back down. Otherwise I'll continue to believe it's a part of your delusional victimization fantasy.

I'd also like to take this time to address a couple of other points.

[ QUOTE ]
Despite your complete lack of any solid argument here, your statement that *I* somehow CAN point to something from I8-I11 as being "build especially for CoV" is flatly absurd, on many levels.

[/ QUOTE ]
Mender Tesseract's TF. It was made for villains. I'll say it again: THE MENDER TESSERACT TF WAS MADE FOR VILLAINS AND VILLAINS ONLY. Heroes can't do it. I'll add in that Mender Silos has a version of his TF that was made for villains as well. (Isn't that what Death Mage said he wanted out of I10? If both sides are given the same content, that the villains ought to get something villain-themed instead of the same thing the heroes were doing?)

I'd also like to make it known that I've played both sides of this game, and while the villains I have will probably eventually play through the RWZ arcs, I AGREE that having villains get the same contacts and missions in the RWZ was contrived. It takes a great suspension of disbelief to accept that a brutish beast with the blood of a thousand Longbow soldiers on his hands would be welcomed with open arms by the Vanguard. Having no screening process is an invitation for total disaster in my book. I personally think that the proper way to do the RWZ would be to have Arachnos make its own organization to counter the Rikti threat and then enter into a(n uneasy) truce with the Vanguard to better coordinate earth's defense.

But I do realize that the reason we got what we got in I10 was not because the Devs hate villains, but because it was a cost-effective measure. To add in all the stuff I would have liked to have seen would probably have pushed the release date of I10 back by weeks if not months, and remember they were set on sticking to their promise of 3 issues a year.

Take heart, there is hope for villains! The NCSoft acquisition has given the Devs more resources to work with, and I would be willing to bet that once I13 rolls around we'll see CoV getting some of the attention it deserves, if not sooner.

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On the flip side there are some of us that are sick of CoV getting the short end of the stick.



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As we keep asking the short end of what stick. We martyred victim act.

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I edited my earlier post to clarify my position.

No one is crying for Martyrdom. Please let's not start that.

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Yes but claiming short end of the stick is taking the martyred victim aproach. And thus the wrong language to use.

Don't get me wrong there are legitimate issues on the COV side and those can be debated and discussed. But this basic thread doesn't even try and do that, it's very title cries out that the OP thinks COV is being victimized by the devs.

I'll be glad to discuss the need for more content, expanded opportunities for arcane salvage etc. Those are all valid concerns and things that can be asked for. That wasn't where this thread started and was going though.

And I'll even give you one more thing. It has been brought up as a valid point that I think holds true. It is more City of Mercenaries than City of Villains and yes Vanguard does lend itself to that. But the problem there is obviously a limitation of the game engine. Ie contacts can only give one set of mission briefs and lack an ability to differenciate between hero and villains. It might be reasonable to ask for some of those briefs to be made a bit more ambigous. That said I still have zero problem justifying them to my villain characters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is something for you to think about when I say short end.

There were three issues in 07.

Issue 9 The invention system and new Hami. Larger playerbase = more vibrant economy. Keeping Villains from accessing that rich market was a bad and shortsighted idea. Saying that villains would not be able to compete is akin to saying that low pop servers cannot compete with high pop servers. Yet the markets cross servers. They should also cross sides. A dev came out and told people how to exploit a particular TF, and the mission remained unchanged. When I9 hit there was a huge spike in running of that TF which seeded the blue market with untold wealth. Villains had no such mechanism. Hami is a waste of time. It should have been co-op. Villains got a copy and paste of Moster Island because we had no way to farm EoE's. That was a big whoops.

Issue 10: the Rikti return. Whoop de dam doo. The Rikti invasion did not advance the villain story line. What it DID do is advence the Hero story line. Now all heroes know what became of Hero One and his band of merry men and women. The RWZ text is hero slanted, and the Warzone is really the old Crash site, and villains are basically tag-a-longs.

Issue 11: brought us flashback, dual blades, Willpower, weapon customization, Fury-fiance and the "fixing" of accolades.

Flashback: There are more heroes than villains right? It stands to reason that there are more heroes that missed things than villains. Heroes have many more arcs that they may not have access to due to origin contacts. Villains never had that limitation so were able to pick and choose the content that they wanted to do. There are seven zones that you are herded into and the bulk of the story arcs that people clamor about are in the 40+ zone, where it ridiculously hard to miss anything.


Dual Blades: Everyone got them. They are the only weapons that brutes have.

Willpower: Awesome sauce!

Weapon Customization: big discrepancy here. Heroes have access to 12 weapon sets across every AT. Villains have access to 8. Doms are completely left out of the mix.

Fury-fiance: lol PvP. There is no holding of Blasters now. No siree. I know the first thing that I did was load up my Blaster's tier 1 and 2 powers with with every gimmick that I could afford. Thanks to IO's.

Accolades: Once again, just numbers. There are many more high level heroes with late accolades that would have been affected by flashback than villains. Simply because there were more heroes than villains when badges were introduced in the first place. So by default more hero characters benefit than villain characters.

Short end of the stick. Red side needs more exclusive content. Red side needs something to get people interested again. Red side needs more things that are not copied from or to the blue side.

Just an observation. Feel free to pick it apart.
[ QUOTE ]

mar·tyr·dom (märtr-dm)
n.
1.
a. The state of being a martyr.
b. The suffering of death by a martyr.
2. Extreme suffering of any kind.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I am not suffering. Nor am not proclaiming that villains suffer. I am just annoyed that there has not been more development on the red side.

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Flashback: There are more heroes than villains right? It stands to reason that there are more heroes that missed things than villains. Heroes have many more arcs that they may not have access to due to origin contacts


[/ QUOTE ]

Flat out wrong. Anyone from level 5 upwards can access any and all of the origin based contacts. A hero typically has access to 5 contacts per tier for most of their career.

Villans have a broadly similar number at each tier (with some fluctuation).

Villans have more (but typically shorter) arcs available via flashback.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

Are there any badge missions mission from Heroes? badge missions that, say, are required for an accolade?

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Villans have more (but typically shorter) arcs available via flashback.

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Typically shorter? Not just that, but they also tend to be already done by the time you hit Ouroboros.

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[ QUOTE ]
Just an observation. Feel free to pick it apart.


[/ QUOTE ]
Okay.

First of all: minor nitpick - the new defiance and the accolade change weren't features of Issue 11, they came along in the next patch.

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There are more heroes than villains right? It stands to reason that there are more heroes that missed things than villains.

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I really don't see the significance of this.

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Heroes have many more arcs that they may not have access to due to origin contacts. Villains never had that limitation so were able to pick and choose the content that they wanted to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Origin contacts are only the starting contacts, and none of them currently offer any story arcs. In fact, heroes don't get any story arcs at all until levels 10-15, at which point you can do any of them regardless of your origin. Villains, however, get story arcs from their starting contacts. In addition, villain-side has the only "unlockable" contacts. Ouroboros allows villains to do those story arcs even if they missed those contacts because they either couldn't get the badge in time or simply didn't know the contact even existed. I'd say that may even be a point in the villains' favor.

[ QUOTE ]
Accolades: Once again, just numbers. There are many more high level heroes with late accolades that would have been affected by flashback than villains. Simply because there were more heroes than villains when badges were introduced in the first place. So by default more hero characters benefit than villain characters.

[/ QUOTE ]
Still, there were a number of villains who were level 40 before villain accolades were brought in. And the Elusive Mind accolade was brought in after that. The change was beneficial to everyone.

That's all I'd like to say.

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Are there any badge missions mission from Heroes? badge missions that, say, are required for an accolade?

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Yes. Specifically, the missions for Spelunker and Doctor's Ally.

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Ok. We have at least Soul Taker, and I haven't look for any others. I find it a bit annoying, personally.

I would like to see some new contacts in CoH, especially unlockables. I'd like to see more contacts in CoV too.

Seriously, why AREN'T they dropping new contacts in to old zones each issue?

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Heroside
Spelunker – Atlas Medallion
Doctors Ally – Conspiracy Theorist

Villanside
Exterminator – Born in Battle (30-34)
Soul Taker – Demonic (30-34)
Couch Potato – Headline Stealer (45-50)
Bad Luck – High Pain Threshold (35-40)
Paragon of Vice – Marshal (15-19)
Strikebreaker – Megalomaniac (25-29)


Some COV badge missions are placed in an odd tier which is why I listed them with the levels, but they are all there.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

[ QUOTE ]

Issue 9 The invention system and new Hami. Larger playerbase = more vibrant economy. Keeping Villains from accessing that rich market was a bad and shortsighted idea.


[/ QUOTE ]

Great idea if you want to see the villains screwed. Blue side had lots and lots and lots of people with billions of influence to burn. Villains would not have been able to compete with that.

The fact that heroes had an exploitable TF that was fixed is not supporting your point.

Again just because you don't like content doesn't make it invalid. Villain side got a brand new Hamidon encounter and a new zone. YOu don't like it that is fine but it is brand new COV content.

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Issue 10: the Rikti return. Whoop de dam doo.


[/ QUOTE ]

Again just because you don't like the content doesn't invalidate it as new content. The Rikti and the Vanguard fit into the metastory of City of Villains. That your character is resisting that metastory and trying to play counter to it doesn't invalidate it as valid new content. You can scream that you hate and loath the new content all you want but it is still new content.

Could it have been made a bit more general? Yes, is this any reason to throw a hissy fit about it? No.

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Flashback: There are more heroes than villains right?


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And this is pertinent? Flashback isn't there to provide a chance to catch up on old missions. It is there to provide a continuing repeatable source of missions. That you don't understand this distinction is interesting. But leads you to incorrect conclusions.

I fail to understand any relavence to your point about Dual blades? Yes everyone got them... so? And yes it is the first weapon set seen by brutes. You are not seeing this as a positive thing? From that I must conclude that your saying brutes shouldn't have weapons.

Weapon customization was a cool thing that they could do. It specifically helps any character who uses weapons. I fail to see any bias against COV here except in your own mind.

If you can't handle a blaster than shame on you.

Accolades ... ? I fail to see your point, you are not making sense here. Just kind of huh.....

Look the martyred we are so put upon and abused stance just isn't working.

Are there things that could be improved in COV? Absolutely. But taking the stance you are isn't going to help COV at all. You are embracing the we are the put upon step children whaaaaaa attitude that turns people off.

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But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

List of Invention Guides

*headdesk*

Out of some innate sense of masochism, I've followed this thread all the way through, and I can say this: you're as happy as you allow yourself to be. You can choose to be miserable because the co-op content doesn't fulfill your (frankly a bit deluded) expectations for redside eeeeeeevil, or you can choose to enjoy the freaking free content we get three times a year.

Y'know... unlike, say, uhm... most (if not all) other MMOs on the market? *grumble* Believe it or not, I'm all for redside getting some more content- I'm only on my second villain, and it's already bugging me that there's only one levelling path... once my altitis really kicks in, it's probably going to make me absolutely nuts- but the incessant whingeing, moaning, victimized "Poor us, the free stuff we're being given isn't good enough!" is making me wish the blood game didn't exist at all, if it's causing this much misery.

Yes, redside could use some more content, and the PPPs apparently blow chunks (beyond my experience at this point- with real life, I don't have as much time to play as I'd like), but whining that the content you did get isn't "villainous" enough is, if I may be blunt, malodorously stupid; deliberate obtuseness of the highest, most objectionable degree.

As to the suggestions on how to make the RWZ more villainous... oh, if only there were some forum... some collected place where suggestions could be aired and considered, rather than used as attempted ammunition in some puerile little us-vs.-them hallucination.

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"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates

MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"

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Are there any badge missions mission from Heroes? badge missions that, say, are required for an accolade?

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Yes. Specifically, the missions for Spelunker

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Spelunker is the one that I was thinking about. Three contacts magic origin. Since I'm a Techie, I have always missed them.

Just how many characters were created before the badge was put into the game? It had to be more than villains since badges were a part of the game's build. They were not a part of the initial CoH release.

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Spelunker is the one that I was thinking about. Three contacts magic origin. Since I'm a Techie, I have always missed them.

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You don't have to be Magic to get the mission. I've done it on any number of Tech characters.

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"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.

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I'm failing to see your point about Vanguard. My villains have zero problem with them. They are essentially hiring your character to act as a mercenary for them.

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Terra, as reasonable as you are, if gamers don't want to suspend their disbelief to make a point, then there's no force in the world that can suspend that disbelief.

A lot of players choosing to limit themselves to only half the game have decided Vanguard was not immersive for villains. This supports the notion that the RWZ content was hero-only: it's convenient, it's easy and it's not going away - what you or I or any of the other villain players think is irrelevant - "They" see it as made-for-heroes, therefore a change is called for.

On another note: Kudos to the OP. Blunt and a bit one-layered, but admirable in its simplicity and a few simple prods got it going and kept it flamey.

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Issue 9 The invention system and new Hami. Larger playerbase = more vibrant economy. Keeping Villains from accessing that rich market was a bad and shortsighted idea.


[/ QUOTE ]

Great idea if you want to see the villains screwed. Blue side had lots and lots and lots of people with billions of influence to burn. Villains would not have been able to compete with that.

The fact that heroes had an exploitable TF that was fixed is not supporting your point.

Again just because you don't like content doesn't make it invalid. Villain side got a brand new Hamidon encounter and a new zone. YOu don't like it that is fine but it is brand new COV content.

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Issue 10: the Rikti return. Whoop de dam doo.


[/ QUOTE ]

Again just because you don't like the content doesn't invalidate it as new content. The Rikti and the Vanguard fit into the metastory of City of Villains. That your character is resisting that metastory and trying to play counter to it doesn't invalidate it as valid new content. You can scream that you hate and loath the new content all you want but it is still new content.

Could it have been made a bit more general? Yes, is this any reason to throw a hissy fit about it? No.

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Flashback: There are more heroes than villains right?


[/ QUOTE ]

And this is pertinent? Flashback isn't there to provide a chance to catch up on old missions. It is there to provide a continuing repeatable source of missions. That you don't understand this distinction is interesting. But leads you to incorrect conclusions.

I fail to understand any relavence to your point about Dual blades? Yes everyone got them... so? And yes it is the first weapon set seen by brutes. You are not seeing this as a positive thing? From that I must conclude that your saying brutes shouldn't have weapons.

Weapon customization was a cool thing that they could do. It specifically helps any character who uses weapons. I fail to see any bias against COV here except in your own mind.

If you can't handle a blaster than shame on you.

Accolades ... ? I fail to see your point, you are not making sense here. Just kind of huh.....

Look the martyred we are so put upon and abused stance just isn't working.

Are there things that could be improved in COV? Absolutely. But taking the stance you are isn't going to help COV at all. You are embracing the we are the put upon step children whaaaaaa attitude that turns people off.

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Here we go. Can there never be a civil discussion without the waaa waaa crap?

you asked what short end, I am showing you. You refuse to aknowledge it and go the inflamatory route.

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Spelunker is the one that I was thinking about. Three contacts magic origin. Since I'm a Techie, I have always missed them.

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You don't have to be Magic to get the mission. I've done it on any number of Tech characters.

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Nor magic to do the mission. But it is easier on tech and science origins to not get a contact that will give you the mission before you out level it though.

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Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net

Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.

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Just how many characters were created before the badge was put into the game? It had to be more than villains since badges were a part of the game's build. They were not a part of the initial CoH release.

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Probably quite a few. I know that at the time my earliest alts were going through that level range, it was common for higher level players seeking the badge to tip or offer to pay for a spot on the mission team.

Still, it's a weak point at best if you're trying to prove that flashback is better for heroes than villains.

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Well, if it's content that doesn't really fit the story line very well then it's not just a matter of "not liking it personally." If the red side needs more help, it should get it. Period.

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Well, while I'll admit to the existence of that particular problem, it's actually little more than the symptom of a larger problem to behold CoV-side - the story sucks. The overarching story of the game just isn't all that good, things considered. Yes, it's a good story in and of itself, but not good enough to define an actual world for players to take part in. CoV isn't villainous enough, and attempts to make it so end up in ghastly unpleasant stories, such as Peter Thermai and Westin Phipps.

As compared to City of Heroes, the world of City of Villains is much, much more rigidly defined, to the point where almost no new content is really enough to "make sense." Yes, helping save the world isn't the most villainous thing in the world, but it is a staple of villainy when the need arises, and is as such perfectly acceptable. But in a game that doesn't give us the ability to "Rul ze vorld!" that content is just out of place.

If we had the option to build our own doomsday device, build our own evil empire and launch invasion strikes on the world's largest cities, take part in open warfare in the city streets and so on and so forth, then hey, a little good will won't kill us, right? Instead the bulk of the game is just one big mercenary job, with little hints of everything else tucked away in out-of-the-way places. Mayhems offer some destruction, Bases offer some empire-building, PvP zones offer a feeling of open warfare, but by and large the game just isn't very villainous.

If I were looking to make the game more villainous, however, the one thing I'd not try to fix is make it more evil. CoV is plenty evil enough, but evil is not the same as villainous. Our villains are basically relegated to being angsty, obnoxious grown men who live in their parent's basement and after they're done painting skulls and listening to death metal, we're sent to clean up the garage and mow the lawn.

I think CoV ended up with an over-abundance of "Go do that for me, bub!" missions. They sort of work for CoH, because reacting to threats is a very large part of what heroes do, but for CoV it just ends up like lots of busywork for a lowbrow mercenary. Villainous, yes, but not by much. "I answer to no-one!" missions would have been really great, but the very setting of the game makes this improbable. Where heroes exist in a city where they can do pretty much anything they want without having to constantly kowtow to, say, City Hall, or at least not do so in an obtrusive way, villains are constantly reminded that they're living in Lord Recluse's back yard, doing his dirty work and looking up to be his chosen. Blarg!

So, yeah, the new content is the latest in a long line of content that doesn't fit the villain theme. So what else is new? What the side needs more than "just new content," is content that actually contributes to the environment and the settings. Sooner or later the developers will figure out that writing missions briefings to sound like we're working for ourselves, rather than for the one big bad, is an easy step that would improve things tremendously.

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Spelunker is the one that I was thinking about. Three contacts magic origin. Since I'm a Techie, I have always missed them.

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You don't have to be Magic to get the mission. I've done it on any number of Tech characters.

[/ QUOTE ]

My Natural Scrapper's got it.

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Here we go. Can there never be a civil discussion without the waaa waaa crap?

you asked what short end, I am showing you. You refuse to aknowledge it and go the inflamatory route.


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::sigh:: No you showed me nothing of the sort. I refute your claim of villains receiving the short end and instead state this more appears to crying and making a fuss when it isn't productive.

I keep stating there are problems and issues that can be worked on but this approach, particularly claiming that villains are getting the short end of the stick, or that villains are hated, or any other claim along those lines isn't a productive approach. Particularly when it doesn't hold up to analysis.

Now your perspective maybe that villains get the short end, but you need to make clear this is your opinion, not state it as a fact.

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But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

List of Invention Guides

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CoV isn't villainous enough, and attempts to make it so end up in ghastly unpleasant stories, such as Peter Thermai and Westin Phipps.

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What on earth is wrong with Peter and Westin? I love those arcs.

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Be well, people of CoH.