Why do the devs hate COV?
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-06 17:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
These are the people who ask for merged markets.
These and the people who actually understand economics.
[/ QUOTE ]
These are the people who don't care if villains get shafted by the grossly inflated prices that heroes charge and are willing to pay for who knows how long before the markets come anywhere close to "equilibrium".
No one on the villainside pays 10,000 inf for BRASS.
[ QUOTE ]
villains and heroes got the exact same content additions in i11.
[/ QUOTE ]
See, this is what you fail to understand. I-11 did much more for blue side than red. If you play red side then you know, there ain't much to miss.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sick of "villains" saying they got nothing. Heroes and villains got the same stuff. Saying that Heroes got it alone, and villains only got a footnote is ridiculous. It could be said the other way, that Heroes got nothing, Villains got Oroboros, andthey tacked it on to Heroes because they already had the code.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not touching that
[ QUOTE ]
Some of us play both games, and have 50's on both sides. These are the people who ask for merged markets.
These and the people who actually understand economics.
Anyhow, TLDR Version:
In before thread locked!
or
Hi B_I!
[/ QUOTE ]
Some of us play the game, but prefer the red side. If you were one, then you might see things differently. I'm sorry that you just don't get it.
There are some of us that are tired of CoV getting the short end of the stick.
edited
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These are the people who ask for merged markets.
These and the people who actually understand economics.
[/ QUOTE ]
These are the people who don't care if villains get shafted by the grossly inflated prices that heroes charge and are willing to pay for who knows how long before the markets come anywhere close to "equilibrium".
No one on the villainside pays 10,000 inf for BRASS.
[/ QUOTE ]
True, but it would be nice to be able to buy the IOs you want when you want them. I've been looking for a 30-35 Dam/End Entropic Chaos for days now for my dom....
@Deadedge and @Dead Edge
Peace through power! Freedom is slavery!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a yo-yo
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These are the people who ask for merged markets.
These and the people who actually understand economics.
[/ QUOTE ]
These are the people who don't care if villains get shafted by the grossly inflated prices that heroes charge and are willing to pay for who knows how long before the markets come anywhere close to "equilibrium".
No one on the villainside pays 10,000 inf for BRASS.
[/ QUOTE ]
Champion, Villain side.
Common salvage drops for low level mystic can go for 50k+. Luck Charm is a popular 10-25k item.
Donno how Luck Charm compares on your server. Brass is pretty low for us though.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These are the people who ask for merged markets.
These and the people who actually understand economics.
[/ QUOTE ]
These are the people who don't care if villains get shafted by the grossly inflated prices that heroes charge and are willing to pay for who knows how long before the markets come anywhere close to "equilibrium".
No one on the villainside pays 10,000 inf for BRASS.
[/ QUOTE ]
Champion, Villain side.
Common salvage drops for low level mystic can go for 50k+. Luck Charm is a popular 10-25k item.
Donno how Luck Charm compares on your server. Brass is pretty low for us though.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Markets are across all server.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
And I hate to think what the Red market would look like if they weren't.
Certain Salvages are ridiculous, everything else is under 1000
[ QUOTE ]
On the flip side there are some of us that are sick of CoV getting the short end of the stick.
[/ QUOTE ]
As we keep asking the short end of what stick. We martyred victim act.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
You know, Terra, there have been a lot of very specific points that have been brought up, here and elsewhere. If you REALLY want to respond to what you perceive to be nothing by people playing the "victim card", then why don't you actually respond to the specific issues? Otherwise, you really aren't adding anything to the discussion, and are just making yourself out to look willfully ignorant.
[ QUOTE ]
You know, Terra, there have been a lot of very specific points that have been brought up, here and elsewhere. If you REALLY want to respond to what you perceive to be nothing by people playing the "victim card", then why don't you actually respond to the specific issues? Otherwise, you really aren't adding anything to the discussion, and are just making yourself out to look willfully ignorant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is...is that irony?
@Deadedge and @Dead Edge
Peace through power! Freedom is slavery!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a yo-yo
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the flip side there are some of us that are sick of CoV getting the short end of the stick.
[/ QUOTE ]
As we keep asking the short end of what stick. We martyred victim act.
[/ QUOTE ]
I edited my earlier post to clarify my position.
No one is crying for Martyrdom. Please let's not start that.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
[ QUOTE ]
You know, Terra, there have been a lot of very specific points that have been brought up, here and elsewhere. If you REALLY want to respond to what you perceive to be nothing by people playing the "victim card", then why don't you actually respond to the specific issues? Otherwise, you really aren't adding anything to the discussion, and are just making yourself out to look willfully ignorant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but I don't agree with the points. They generally just display a lack of flexability and creativity in aproach. The point is usually a very ridged and inflexable view of what villainy is.
And yes I have responded I think the claim that Vanguard isn't for villains is lame and doesn't hold any water. To try and build an arguement around that doesn't work. I'll dismiss it because I have no problem working the Rikti war zone into any and all of my Villains.
I simply don't have any sympathy for the claim that COV has recieved little to no attention from the devs because it isn't supported by the facts. You can argue that the attention it has recieved isn't what you want, but that is a different point than claiming it hasn't recieved attention and content.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
No, you responded that YOUR villains just IGNORED what Vanguard said and went on their merry way.
Completely ignoring the various situations I brought up (chars allied with the Rikti, chars who ARE aliens bent on destroying the human race, etc.) Basically, characters fighting AGAINST their own, personal, interests by joining Vanguard.
And I responded to your "fake them out" bit also, which you ignored.
Quite frankly, I'm a bit tired of listening to cry-baby blue-siders who turn a blind eye to real problems in the game simply becuase they feel superior becuase "they were here first."
IBTL. I can't see anything constructive coming of this any more...if there was even anything constructive to begin with.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the flip side there are some of us that are sick of CoV getting the short end of the stick.
[/ QUOTE ]
As we keep asking the short end of what stick. We martyred victim act.
[/ QUOTE ]
I edited my earlier post to clarify my position.
No one is crying for Martyrdom. Please let's not start that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but claiming short end of the stick is taking the martyred victim aproach. And thus the wrong language to use.
Don't get me wrong there are legitimate issues on the COV side and those can be debated and discussed. But this basic thread doesn't even try and do that, it's very title cries out that the OP thinks COV is being victimized by the devs.
I'll be glad to discuss the need for more content, expanded opportunities for arcane salvage etc. Those are all valid concerns and things that can be asked for. That wasn't where this thread started and was going though.
And I'll even give you one more thing. It has been brought up as a valid point that I think holds true. It is more City of Mercenaries than City of Villains and yes Vanguard does lend itself to that. But the problem there is obviously a limitation of the game engine. Ie contacts can only give one set of mission briefs and lack an ability to differenciate between hero and villains. It might be reasonable to ask for some of those briefs to be made a bit more ambigous. That said I still have zero problem justifying them to my villain characters.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
[ QUOTE ]
It could be said the other way, that Heroes got nothing, Villains got Oroboros, andthey tacked it on to Heroes because they already had the code.
[/ QUOTE ]
The arcs were designed for heroes first. The zone was designed for heroes first. That basically leaves transportation, which forced hero characters to traverse to Peregrine Island (Time Travel masters my patooshka) to a portal while villain characters used the Pool of Time (which was exactly what it sounds like).
This was then fixed. The pool and portal ways were nixed, and everyone given crystals.
[ QUOTE ]
Some of us play both games, and have 50's on both sides. These are the people who ask for merged markets.
These and the people who actually understand economics
[/ QUOTE ]
Hell yes.
(QR)
I guess I see a composite of different issues going on here.
1. I don't really see parity between the two games right now.
1a. I don't think PPPs compete with APPs mechanics-wise, and the limitations placed on PPPs are unduly burdensome.
1b. I don't think CoV has quite as much content as CoH, but what it does have is generally better. I like the villain arcs more than the hero arcs -- I think they're better written, have more interesting set pieces, and don't suffer from the constant "travel 3 zones and talk to a guy, then come back to me" problem. (The hero game since Striga has improved on the travel issue, and I think the Faultline arc, in particular, is what I'd enjoy have CoH-wide.) More relevant to this point, though, is that villain-side suffers from a lack of content in certain level ranges, although some of the new features work at filling in this gap.
1c. CoV's content undermines its gameplay, for my purposes. I'd love to play a stalker more, but the negative stealth (and the sheer volume of escort missions) makes me question the point of it. Similarly, I like dominators, but CoV has a lot of purple triangles. I prefer soloing (and frequently play at odd hours), so the number of fake-AVs becomes an obstacle, as I see it.
2. Issue 7 and Issue 8 pretty much cancel each other out in my book. They were both aimed at evening out the differences between red and blue. And both of them have been invoked as "proof" that one side or the other is dying. I really don't think they stand as evidence that a given side is the unloved child.
3. 9, 10, 11 all strike me as shared content. I don't (at all) see where "it was for heroes, but villains get to tag along) originates. That just seems... absurd. RWZ? Yeah, my villains can get behind it -- they'd like to have a world left to conquer. If helping out heroes to preserve a shot at victory is good enough for Requiem (Ubelmann the Unknown), it's good enough for me.
On point, I think there's still a gap between CoH and CoV, and I think each one lags a little behind the other on key points. If I had to pick, I'd probably say CoV holds the slightly shorter straw, but I don't think it's quite as bad as many people make it out to be. And I don't think 9, 10, and 11 have widened that gap. I'd like to see some more villain-only content aimed at evening things out, but I don't think villain-only issues are the solution.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These are the people who ask for merged markets.
These and the people who actually understand economics.
[/ QUOTE ]
These are the people who don't care if villains get shafted by the grossly inflated prices that heroes charge and are willing to pay for who knows how long before the markets come anywhere close to "equilibrium".
No one on the villainside pays 10,000 inf for BRASS.
[/ QUOTE ]
True, but it would be nice to be able to buy the IOs you want when you want them. I've been looking for a 30-35 Dam/End Entropic Chaos for days now for my dom....
[/ QUOTE ]
My Two Brutes and Stalker had little trouble getting multiple sets of Scirocco's Dervish. My Corruptor has Posi Blasts, multiple Achille's procs, and Devastations.
And it was all much cheaper than it would have been on the heroside. Don't talk like it can't be done.
[ QUOTE ]
(QR)
I guess I see a composite of different issues going on here.
1. I don't really see parity between the two games right now.
1a. I don't think PPPs compete with APPs mechanics-wise, and the limitations placed on PPPs are unduly burdensome.
1b. I don't think CoV has quite as much content as CoH, but what it does have is generally better. I like the villain arcs more than the hero arcs -- I think they're better written, have more interesting set pieces, and don't suffer from the constant "travel 3 zones and talk to a guy, then come back to me" problem. (The hero game since Striga has improved on the travel issue, and I think the Faultline arc, in particular, is what I'd enjoy have CoH-wide.) More relevant to this point, though, is that villain-side suffers from a lack of content in certain level ranges, although some of the new features work at filling in this gap.
1c. CoV's content undermines its gameplay, for my purposes. I'd love to play a stalker more, but the negative stealth (and the sheer volume of escort missions) makes me question the point of it. Similarly, I like dominators, but CoV has a lot of purple triangles. I prefer soloing (and frequently play at odd hours), so the number of fake-AVs becomes an obstacle, as I see it.
2. Issue 7 and Issue 8 pretty much cancel each other out in my book. They were both aimed at evening out the differences between red and blue. And both of them have been invoked as "proof" that one side or the other is dying. I really don't think they stand as evidence that a given side is the unloved child.
3. 9, 10, 11 all strike me as shared content. I don't (at all) see where "it was for heroes, but villains get to tag along) originates. That just seems... absurd. RWZ? Yeah, my villains can get behind it -- they'd like to have a world left to conquer. If helping out heroes to preserve a shot at victory is good enough for Requiem (Ubelmann the Unknown), it's good enough for me.
On point, I think there's still a gap between CoH and CoV, and I think each one lags a little behind the other on key points. If I had to pick, I'd probably say CoV holds the slightly shorter straw, but I don't think it's quite as bad as many people make it out to be. And I don't think 9, 10, and 11 have widened that gap. I'd like to see some more villain-only content aimed at evening things out, but I don't think villain-only issues are the solution.
[/ QUOTE ]
You post is very reasonable and therefore will be completely ignored.
@Deadedge and @Dead Edge
Peace through power! Freedom is slavery!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a yo-yo
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These are the people who ask for merged markets.
These and the people who actually understand economics.
[/ QUOTE ]
These are the people who don't care if villains get shafted by the grossly inflated prices that heroes charge and are willing to pay for who knows how long before the markets come anywhere close to "equilibrium".
No one on the villainside pays 10,000 inf for BRASS.
[/ QUOTE ]
True, but it would be nice to be able to buy the IOs you want when you want them. I've been looking for a 30-35 Dam/End Entropic Chaos for days now for my dom....
[/ QUOTE ]
My Two Brutes and Stalker had little trouble getting multiple sets of Scirocco's Dervish. My Corruptor has Posi Blasts, multiple Achille's procs, and Devastations.
And it was all much cheaper than it would have been on the heroside. Don't talk like it can't be done.
[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said it could be done easier is I had access to the heroes' wealth of recipes.
@Deadedge and @Dead Edge
Peace through power! Freedom is slavery!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a yo-yo
[ QUOTE ]
Quite frankly, I'm a bit tired of listening to cry-baby blue-siders who turn a blind eye to real problems in the game simply becuase they feel superior becuase "they were here first."
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah yes I have slightly more villains than heroes so I'm a cry-baby blue sider? The only people I see in here crying are the ones posting that Villains are abused and mistreated etc. The others seem more tolerantly amused by you.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
I12: City of Zebras.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These are the people who ask for merged markets.
These and the people who actually understand economics.
[/ QUOTE ]
These are the people who don't care if villains get shafted by the grossly inflated prices that heroes charge and are willing to pay for who knows how long before the markets come anywhere close to "equilibrium".
No one on the villainside pays 10,000 inf for BRASS.
[/ QUOTE ]
Duhyyuuuuu, heroes done charged too much. And dem der guyzis buying at stoopid prices too... looky there, I gots me zume lucky drawps... not I's rich and kin afford what I needs too...
And wowzers hey, lookit there... befur there wuz 100 bids and nun to buy.. but nowz I kin buys stuff.
...
Yes, CoH/V market economics is so incredibly high brow.
Be well, people of CoH.
I don't know about the Dev's but I have CoV! I still haven't leveled that Brute or stalker yet. Damn CoV! 
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
Since you asked here it is. I remember now why I skipped replying to this.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now that said maybe you don't like the content you have recieved, but you can't deny the new content that added.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure we can.
[ QUOTE ]
Incorrect the content is there for both villains and heros. I fail to see how it isn't content for villains.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's quite simple, really.
It is the difference between contented being added FOR a game, and content being added TO a game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really but if you think it is that is fine.
[ QUOTE ]
As a red side player, none of the content added to CoV since I7 has had any sense of being aded for CoV. There is not a single thing I can point out and say "They were thinking about Villains when they designed this." Not one.
[/ QUOTE ]
wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
The pseudo-trials in I11 were the closest they've come since I7 to making content designed FOR villains. Yes, they are villain story arcs. Yes, they actually treat the villains as villains instead of heroes. But in order to do so, they had to destroy the given story and history of the game.
Take Mender Tesseract's Task Force. Levels 25-34. This is important, I know a lot of people have only used the Ouroboros to let their 50's do what they missed, but Tesseract is designed for players level 25-34.
In this task force, the villain (who can solo), or group of villains, put Lord Recluse in power. At level 25. You're still nothing but a grunt at even 34. You're still one of Recluse's followers (since, you know, he's the ONLY leading force on the Villain side). Everything you're doing is still under his watchful eye, and under his orders.
But he owes his very power to you. At level 25.
The entire TF leaves a bitter taste in my mouth because it seems so obviously slapped together without any forethought. I'm not saying the hero side ones are any better, becuase I haven't seen them. But this was crap. It was not added FOR the game, it was added TO the game, quickly slapped together to give us something to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here is where you show your lack of creativity. First the news paper articles in the prerelease show what the world would be like if Recluse hadn't taken the islands and in that world you wouldn't be where you are at this point. You can choose to ignore it if you want, but that is the games world view and mechanic. By the same token you can play a Sith Lord if you want, it is just that the game mechanics will be fighting you every step of the way.
This is important, when you play an online game you are subject to the constraints of the game and its engine. If you work with it your rewarded with fun. If you fight the game mechanics and assumptions you get that bitter taste in your mouth. Your trying to impose your will on the game mechanics and that is a fight you can never win.
[ QUOTE ]
Now, it may seem like a minor point to you, and it is. But that's part of the problem. Even something so inane, so trivial that it is taken for granted, the smallest detail... is left out. The disparity has gotten SO bad, SO obvious, that something as insignificant as an anniversary badge isn't even considered by the dev teams any more. Heroes get their badges for years 1, 2, 3, they'll get it again for year 4. Villains got their badge for year 1..... and then nothing at the year 2 mile marker.
[/ QUOTE ]
You also get the badges, they are for the game as a whole. The devs have essentially admitted that CoH and CoV are and always have been one game. It was a marketing ploy initially that spun them as two games. In effect Matt/Positron is saying there is only one game not two so there will be no badges for the aniversary of the first paid expansion. What your asking for is that each paid expansion recieve its own badge. If they where truely seperate games you would never recieve the 2 and 3 year aniversary badges for the game launch. Any bitter taste you have from this is your own faulty expectations.
[ QUOTE ]
Not fixing broken ATs, not getting VEATs, watching heroes get their versions of our content for no reason other than WE had something THEY didn't, not having hazard zones, not having any variety in the zones, only ONE zone for each level range, a serious lack in SFs, new story lines that go completely at odds with current or previous story lines, all co-op content from the RWZ to the holiday events being designed FOR heroes but added TO villains... they're never going to fix any of that if they can't even muster up enough devotion to a game - a game that we pay just as much for as any blue sider - to mark it's anniversary.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again you fail to grasp the realities of the game and the world. When Cryptic spun down development after COV's release the support levels where brought down. They are only now expanding the staff to the levels you are expecting and think exist. Note that just after the release of I11 after 2 years of whimpering and crying blasters have had there inherant fixed. Also note that Castle is actively working on something for stalkers and some of the other villain AT's. That you don't accept the realities of what the staff they had could do is again your problem.
One of the things you fail to grasp is that COV was built with many of the lessons learned from the first 5 issues of COH. That is why there are no hazard zones. Instead each zone was built large and the hazard zone was incorporated into the individual zones designs.
It your perception not the reality that the RWZ and Ouroboros are Hero only content that is tacked on to the villain side. That reality fails to meet your expectations the simple truth of this. The RWZ and Ouroboros are as villainous as you want them to be.
And again why would there be a seperate aniversary for something that isn't a seperate game? you can't even buy COV any more as a seperate game unless you look for an old box to buy. The only version for sale is the combined Good versus Evil version. Again reinforcing the harsh reality that it isn't two games it is one.
[ QUOTE ]
You, Terra, don't "get it". You're never going to "get it". But I actually DO play red side. Every time I log in I'm presented with evidence that our game just doesn't matter to the devs. They stopped designing FOR City of Villains nearly two years ago.
It breaks my heart that I finally find a game I love, and it is abandoned by it's creators.
[/ QUOTE ]
You Death-mage just don't "get it" and I'm afraid that you aren't. I actually play the red side and am presented with lots of new toys and things to play with.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
[ QUOTE ]
Where all the ATs can solo well at a good pace, unlike hero side, where only one AT can do it. The rest are slow or boring.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bill, you been dipping in the happy juice again?
The only hero ATs that are boring to solo, IMO are Kheldians. Seeing them in teams just makes soloing seem stupid.
Villains are pretty easy to solo too, although Dominators kinda annoy me. But I need to stop playing */Psi!
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.