Why do the devs hate COV?
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-06 17:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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In short, I expect people to be honest enough to admit to some stuff being such common knowledge/seen so often on these forums that one need not drag in a Supreme Court ruling everytime someone says.... pretty much anything. Bahahaha! I even make ME laugh, at the mere thought of such a silly expectation.
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Yes but the things your claiming don't fall into that category. Thus the request for evidence to back up the claims.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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These are the people who ask for merged markets.
These and the people who actually understand economics.
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These are the people who don't care if villains get shafted by the grossly inflated prices that heroes charge and are willing to pay for who knows how long before the markets come anywhere close to "equilibrium".
No one on the villainside pays 10,000 inf for BRASS.
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Champion, Villain side.
Common salvage drops for low level mystic can go for 50k+. Luck Charm is a popular 10-25k item.
Donno how Luck Charm compares on your server. Brass is pretty low for us though.
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He never mentioned Luck Charms though: he was saying we don't pay 10,000 Infamy for Brass.
Which is quite true, we don't. Nor do we pay 50,000 for Luck Charms, or whatever astronomical sum they're going for these days over on blueside.
just addressing hazard zones here... CoV is a hazard zone
go from playing CoH only for months, then enter CoV, you get freakin assaulted everywhere you go! There are GM's that walk around looking to beat you down in the middle of the street. Let take hollows for example, you have a city part, and then you have a huge wrecked part, now look at mercy, port oakes, and a few others, it's like that in the normal CoV zones. Now go street sweep or something in your hazard zone.
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In short, I expect people to be honest enough to admit to some stuff being such common knowledge/seen so often on these forums that one need not drag in a Supreme Court ruling everytime someone says.... pretty much anything. Bahahaha! I even make ME laugh, at the mere thought of such a silly expectation.
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Yes but the things your claiming don't fall into that category. Thus the request for evidence to back up the claims.
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If you think I am stupid enough to fall into a trap like that, as an attempt to divert the argument into a side-channel, dream on.
I know that you are smart enough and read the forums enough to know exactly what goes on in this forum and others. You don't need me shoving that under your nose again in 6"-high letters.
See, I believe in you. 
Even when you're trying to stir the pot.
EDIT:
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I simply don't have any sympathy for the claim that COV has recieved little to no attention from the devs because it isn't supported by the facts.
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Please lay out for us what redside content has been bestowed upon us since i7. This does not, need I remind you, include zones that have us rescuing our most hated enemies [lol.... priceless], nor does it include Heaven oopsImean, Oroborous. Villains are ALLOWED INTO those zones; they are by no stretch of the imagination FOR us.
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Please lay out for us what redside content has been bestowed upon us since i7. This does not, need I remind you, include zones that have us rescuing our most hated enemies [lol.... priceless], nor does it include Heaven oopsImean, Oroborous. Villains are ALLOWED INTO those zones; they are by no stretch of the imagination FOR us.
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You can't ask people to detail content for villains and in the same paragraph create an ad hoc exception for any content you don't feel meets you sensibilities. That's not an argument made in good faith.
Isn't it better just to admit that CoV got content, but it's content that you don't personally like? At least that's honest.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Well, if it's content that doesn't really fit the story line very well then it's not just a matter of "not liking it personally." If the red side needs more help, it should get it. Period.
I bet that if the shoe were on the other foot, the people here that are trying to dispel the idea that the red side is neglected would be complaining just as much, if not more.
But it's okay. Every year there are more new games coming out. Every year there will be more players leaving these 2 games that are 1 but aren't. 
Eventually the blue side will be as neglected as the red side. Too bad by then these people that actually care about the red side and try to get things changed for the better will be gone and unable to gloat.
I know the games I'm waiting for aren't by NCSoft. Too bad. 
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Just wondering. Seems alot of attention villains need, just is a no go. COH gets alot more attention. This goes for pve and pvp. Will 2008 actually bring some attention?
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They don't hate COV, they just hate you. 
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Luck Charm is a popular 10-25k item
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i.e, cheaper than heroside
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Please lay out for us what redside content has been bestowed upon us since i7. This does not, need I remind you, include zones that have us rescuing our most hated enemies [lol.... priceless], nor does it include Heaven oopsImean, Oroborous. Villains are ALLOWED INTO those zones; they are by no stretch of the imagination FOR us.
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You can't ask people to detail content for villains and in the same paragraph create an ad hoc exception for any content you don't feel meets you sensibilities. That's not an argument made in good faith.
Isn't it better just to admit that CoV got content, but it's content that you don't personally like? At least that's honest.
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Do you really expect that sort of honesty from a group of people who think it would be better if the developers never learned from their mistakes, never incorporated the lessons learned from previous decisions, and don't seem to grasp that the game has not had the subscriber levels or development staff necessary for all the things they wish for to have been possible? I mean, people go on about Hazard Zones, but I just logged off Virtue, and in DA, a zone full of easy to kill magic salvage dropping mobs, there were a whole two or three other people besides me unhidden. If hero side hazard zones are ghosttowns (in every sense of the word in this case), what do they think they would add to CoV? Big boxes of mobs that no one uses aren't exactly going to revolutionize that part of the game. Its like complaining that your older brother has a sixth toe on his left foot and you want one too.
Alot of this comes down to people being too vague in their complaints. If people are mad about the lack of CoV *exclusive* content added since I7, perhaps they have a point. Handwaving away *all* content added to CoV is absurd, and only serves to weaken the argument of anyone expressing that opinion by making them look irrational.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
CoP please.
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Luck Charm is a popular 10-25k item
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i.e, cheaper than heroside
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I never pay more than 25k for it hero side, and I never pay 10k for brass. Now if some people do, then that is their fault for being impatient or stupid. The prices jump up and down so fast for salvage like that that anyone claiming Luck Charms go for 50k and failing to mention that they are often found for less than half that price is ignorant at best, and a flat out liar at worst.
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Please lay out for us what redside content has been bestowed upon us since i7. This does not, need I remind you, include zones that have us rescuing our most hated enemies [lol.... priceless], nor does it include Heaven oopsImean, Oroborous. Villains are ALLOWED INTO those zones; they are by no stretch of the imagination FOR us.
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You can't ask people to detail content for villains and in the same paragraph create an ad hoc exception for any content you don't feel meets you sensibilities. That's not an argument made in good faith.
Isn't it better just to admit that CoV got content, but it's content that you don't personally like? At least that's honest.
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I agree completely. It must take someone stupid beyond belief to not see how heroes and villains teaming up to fight the Rikti invasion makes sense. If the Rikti take over or destroy the Earth, how is that in the villains best interest? It's not. It's in their best interest to get rid of any serious threats to their ambition, which the Rikti certainly are.
I will give you credit. You are at least finally trying to discuss the issue instead of blowing it off.
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Since you asked here it is. I remember now why I skipped replying to this.
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Now that said maybe you don't like the content you have recieved, but you can't deny the new content that added.
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Sure we can.
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Incorrect the content is there for both villains and heros. I fail to see how it isn't content for villains.
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It's quite simple, really.
It is the difference between contented being added FOR a game, and content being added TO a game.
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Not really but if you think it is that is fine.
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There is a large difference. Imagine if you will that Issue 12 is nothing but the addition of being able to set up City of Heroes to run a virtual fish tank screen saver when you go AFK. This is certainly something new added to the game, but by no means would it be in any way adding something substantial to the game. To the villain side, that's essentially what I10 was. Oh sure, there were new features, but it was not added with villains in mind for anything other than simply throwing them a bone to appease them. I've already outlined how they could have made RWZ truly dual-side content. Some of the new technology implemented could then have been used to make other parts of both games more interesting. The ability for a contact to give different missions and especially text based on your AT would have added a new element to the game, if used properly. Instead, both sides are treated to the same missions, the same stories, the same everything. However, since it's easier to believe that villains would team up to do hero things when a large threat is encountered, the stories were written to reflect villains crossing over in a time of need. If for I12 your hero was given Westin Phipps as a contact, would you happily accept the new content to destroy schools and the like? Would you complain that it went against your chars? Would you just ignore their story and run with it anyway, because hey, it's something to do?
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As a red side player, none of the content added to CoV since I7 has had any sense of being aded for CoV. There is not a single thing I can point out and say "They were thinking about Villains when they designed this." Not one.
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wrong.
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Despite your complete lack of any solid argument here, your statement that *I* somehow CAN point to something from I8-I11 as being "build especially for CoV" is flatly absurd, on many levels. However, since you didn't bother to even try to make a case here, I won't bother to point out how foolish you sounded doing so.
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The pseudo-trials in I11 were the closest they've come since I7 to making content designed FOR villains. Yes, they are villain story arcs. Yes, they actually treat the villains as villains instead of heroes. But in order to do so, they had to destroy the given story and history of the game.
Take Mender Tesseract's Task Force. Levels 25-34. This is important, I know a lot of people have only used the Ouroboros to let their 50's do what they missed, but Tesseract is designed for players level 25-34.
In this task force, the villain (who can solo), or group of villains, put Lord Recluse in power. At level 25. You're still nothing but a grunt at even 34. You're still one of Recluse's followers (since, you know, he's the ONLY leading force on the Villain side). Everything you're doing is still under his watchful eye, and under his orders.
But he owes his very power to you. At level 25.
The entire TF leaves a bitter taste in my mouth because it seems so obviously slapped together without any forethought. I'm not saying the hero side ones are any better, becuase I haven't seen them. But this was crap. It was not added FOR the game, it was added TO the game, quickly slapped together to give us something to do.
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Here is where you show your lack of creativity. First the news paper articles in the prerelease show what the world would be like if Recluse hadn't taken the islands and in that world you wouldn't be where you are at this point. You can choose to ignore it if you want, but that is the games world view and mechanic. By the same token you can play a Sith Lord if you want, it is just that the game mechanics will be fighting you every step of the way.
This is important, when you play an online game you are subject to the constraints of the game and its engine. If you work with it your rewarded with fun. If you fight the game mechanics and assumptions you get that bitter taste in your mouth. Your trying to impose your will on the game mechanics and that is a fight you can never win.
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Nothing that you've said here has any relevance. "What the world would be like without Recluse" is completely without merit. First off, there is the basic principal of what information is and is not cannon - That being that no matter how "official" something is, if it's not IN the material itself, it's not cannon. That aside, conceptually, almost no char of mine that would be changed if Reculse weren't in power. Hell Hound would still be a demon, Epoch Eclipse would still be an alien, Feign Death would still be death incarnate. Etc. etc. The only ones that, conceptually, WOULD care in the least are the ones specifically built to be Recluse's toadies and grunts. The Arachnos soldiers themselves. And even then, for all but the most brain dead among them, the thought that THEY put Recluse in charge would mean that they would no longer feel the need to be his servents, but that Recluse is beholden to them, and not vice versa as the rest of the game is built around.
There is no lack of creativity here except with the devs and the game itself.
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Now, it may seem like a minor point to you, and it is. But that's part of the problem. Even something so inane, so trivial that it is taken for granted, the smallest detail... is left out. The disparity has gotten SO bad, SO obvious, that something as insignificant as an anniversary badge isn't even considered by the dev teams any more. Heroes get their badges for years 1, 2, 3, they'll get it again for year 4. Villains got their badge for year 1..... and then nothing at the year 2 mile marker.
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You also get the badges, they are for the game as a whole. The devs have essentially admitted that CoH and CoV are and always have been one game. It was a marketing ploy initially that spun them as two games. In effect Matt/Positron is saying there is only one game not two so there will be no badges for the aniversary of the first paid expansion. What your asking for is that each paid expansion recieve its own badge. If they where truely seperate games you would never recieve the 2 and 3 year aniversary badges for the game launch. Any bitter taste you have from this is your own faulty expectations.
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Heroes were able to get the CoV 1 year badge. Villains are able to get the CoH badges. That does not change the fact the anniversary for my side of the game is now ignored. Tell me, if they changed the date for the anniversary badges to celebrate CoV, and stopped giving out CoH badges, do you think people would have accepted it while saying "Thank you sir, may I please have another?"
As for their being one game, sorry, no. They are two games. My copy of City of Villains is quite specifically CoV only. I had to get CoH later to get it's access. As I stated before, it is no different than such combination games as World of Xeen or Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Two games that, yes, do have points of commonality where they can be combined, but otherwise are two separate products, purchased separately, paid for separately, used separately.
On that note, no you cannot claim that "Old CoH and New CoH are two separate games by that logic." You cannot access "New" CoH content without having CoH. You can access CoV w/o having CoH and vice versa. The comparison is just foolish.
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Not fixing broken ATs, not getting VEATs, watching heroes get their versions of our content for no reason other than WE had something THEY didn't, not having hazard zones, not having any variety in the zones, only ONE zone for each level range, a serious lack in SFs, new story lines that go completely at odds with current or previous story lines, all co-op content from the RWZ to the holiday events being designed FOR heroes but added TO villains... they're never going to fix any of that if they can't even muster up enough devotion to a game - a game that we pay just as much for as any blue sider - to mark it's anniversary.
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Again you fail to grasp the realities of the game and the world. When Cryptic spun down development after COV's release the support levels where brought down. They are only now expanding the staff to the levels you are expecting and think exist. Note that just after the release of I11 after 2 years of whimpering and crying blasters have had there inherant fixed. Also note that Castle is actively working on something for stalkers and some of the other villain AT's. That you don't accept the realities of what the staff they had could do is again your problem.
One of the things you fail to grasp is that COV was built with many of the lessons learned from the first 5 issues of COH. That is why there are no hazard zones. Instead each zone was built large and the hazard zone was incorporated into the individual zones designs.
It your perception not the reality that the RWZ and Ouroboros are Hero only content that is tacked on to the villain side. That reality fails to meet your expectations the simple truth of this. The RWZ and Ouroboros are as villainous as you want them to be.
And again why would there be a seperate aniversary for something that isn't a seperate game? you can't even buy COV any more as a seperate game unless you look for an old box to buy. The only version for sale is the combined Good versus Evil version. Again reinforcing the harsh reality that it isn't two games it is one.
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There is more than a small discrepancy, though. I want you to preform a simple test:
Go through CoH, and count up every single thing, gameplay wise, that you see that you CAN'T do in CoV.
Then go do the same with CoV.
CoV has Masterminds. That's about it. There's some unique power sets, but that's to be expected. It's a GOOD thing that there are different sets for different sides. Unique content is a drawing force, and there needs to be more of it - on BOTH sides.
This is where the big problem is. You, and others like you who treat the games as one game (and this includes the devs) are quite simply cheating both sides out of good content. The devs are terrified of making anything new for CoV becuase the legacy players, yourself included, will come to the forum in droves and demand that you get what villains had. We saw it with I8. I8 being focused on heroes was not a bad thing. I8 giving the heroes all of Villain's unique points was. Instead of designing something specifically for heroes, they tried to hammer CoV content's square peg into CoH's round hole. Safeguard missions are crap, a pale imitation, thrown in SOLELY because Villains got something new. Instead of new content, you got rehashed content. And because of it, because of people like you, neither side can have anything good and unique to them again.
I hope you're proud of yourself.
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You, Terra, don't "get it". You're never going to "get it". But I actually DO play red side. Every time I log in I'm presented with evidence that our game just doesn't matter to the devs. They stopped designing FOR City of Villains nearly two years ago.
It breaks my heart that I finally find a game I love, and it is abandoned by it's creators.
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You Death-mage just don't "get it" and I'm afraid that you aren't. I actually play the red side and am presented with lots of new toys and things to play with.
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I'd prefer hazard zones in CoV over CoH simply becuase of Masterminds. I would actually be able to go in and clean up solo against large groups. Plus my high level characters generally like to do that anyway.
So what IS the main reason why the hazard zones are empty? Is it because they are essentially unsoloable (especially early on)? Is it because there's only a handful of missions there anyway so there's really nothing worth doing?
To say CoV zones are themselves hazard zones is just dishonest. A key aspect to hazard zones is the size of the spawns. In CoV, there may be a lot of enemies standing around on the street, but rarely in groups larger than 4. Which is no different than any other outside zone I've seen for CoH.
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CoP please.
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Once the internal focus group of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster finish with it, I'm sure we'll see it. 
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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Once the internal focus group of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster finish with it, I'm sure we'll see it.
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They sent the code off to Jimmy Hoffa for testing.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
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I'd prefer hazard zones in CoV over CoH simply becuase of Masterminds. I would actually be able to go in and clean up solo against large groups. Plus my high level characters generally like to do that anyway.
So what IS the main reason why the hazard zones are empty? Is it because they are essentially unsoloable (especially early on)? Is it because there's only a handful of missions there anyway so there's really nothing worth doing?
To say CoV zones are themselves hazard zones is just dishonest. A key aspect to hazard zones is the size of the spawns. In CoV, there may be a lot of enemies standing around on the street, but rarely in groups larger than 4. Which is no different than any other outside zone I've seen for CoH.
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There are areas in each CoV zone with larger than normal spawns IIRC.
And Hazard zones are empty because there is nothing to do in them. They have no contacts, and no interactivity. This is a in instanced mission-content focussed game and player base.
You don't want Hazard Zones. You want a Hollows-Faultline-Striga-Croatoa alternate advancement path.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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Once the internal focus group of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster finish with it, I'm sure we'll see it.
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They sent the code off to Jimmy Hoffa for testing.
[/ QUOTE ]Then to the Florida testing group to count the errors.
In the Arena of Logic, I fight unarmed.
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Then to the Florida testing group to count the errors.
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Well played!
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
Well yes, I'd like an alternate zone path as well.
Although, I see parallels with the hazard zone argument as a lot of people have with CoV. Since hazard zones aren't used much they don't get any content so they aren't used much.
Would you use hazard zones more if they had as much to do in them as normal zones? As many contacts (well hidden, of course), a police scanner, and the like?
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I'd prefer hazard zones in CoV over CoH simply becuase of Masterminds. I would actually be able to go in and clean up solo against large groups. Plus my high level characters generally like to do that anyway.
So what IS the main reason why the hazard zones are empty? Is it because they are essentially unsoloable (especially early on)? Is it because there's only a handful of missions there anyway so there's really nothing worth doing?
To say CoV zones are themselves hazard zones is just dishonest. A key aspect to hazard zones is the size of the spawns. In CoV, there may be a lot of enemies standing around on the street, but rarely in groups larger than 4. Which is no different than any other outside zone I've seen for CoH.
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There are areas in each CoV zone with larger than normal spawns IIRC.
And Hazard zones are empty because there is nothing to do in them. They have no contacts, and no interactivity. This is a in instanced mission-content focussed game and player base.
You don't want Hazard Zones. You want a Hollows-Faultline-Striga-Croatoa alternate advancement path.
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Also in hazard zones there are no stores, trainers, and usually no hospital. I think they are under utilized. A decent team can go street sweeping in them and get tons of XP. And Dark Astoria has all the arcane groups you need to become rich.
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Would you use hazard zones more if they had as much to do in them as normal zones? As many contacts (well hidden, of course), a police scanner, and the like?
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Hell yes I would! I would love to see some content added to Dark Astoria.
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There is a large difference. Imagine if you will that Issue 12 is nothing but the addition of being able to set up City of Heroes to run a virtual fish tank screen saver when you go AFK. This is certainly something new added to the game, but by no means would it be in any way adding something substantial to the game. To the villain side, that's essentially what I10 was. Oh sure, there were new features, but it was not added with villains in mind for anything other than simply throwing them a bone to appease them. I've already outlined how they could have made RWZ truly dual-side content. Some of the new technology implemented could then have been used to make other parts of both games more interesting. The ability for a contact to give different missions and especially text based on your AT would have added a new element to the game, if used properly. Instead, both sides are treated to the same missions, the same stories, the same everything. However, since it's easier to believe that villains would team up to do hero things when a large threat is encountered, the stories were written to reflect villains crossing over in a time of need. If for I12 your hero was given Westin Phipps as a contact, would you happily accept the new content to destroy schools and the like? Would you complain that it went against your chars? Would you just ignore their story and run with it anyway, because hey, it's something to do?
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Screen saver for I12 is a strawman arguement. Try again. And if they did do that I would simply say thank you and keep playing.
What you are failing to grasp here is that just because you personally think the content sucked doesn't mean that most agreed with you. For that matter it doesn't mean that the content isn't valid and good solid content for COV. Remember just because you don't like it doesn't make it invalid.
Unfortunately it appears that they couldn't make RMZ dual sided. It would have been nice but they couldn't. Your stating that your certain they could do it doesn't change the cold hard reality that it isn't technically feasable for the existing game engine. If they had held the issue up for 5 - 6 months they might have been able to rewrite the contact system to support it. Maybe. Maybe not and then the issue would have been delayed all that time for no benefit.
Some of my heroes would have zero issues with Westin Phipps. Again it is in the players aproach to this and your failing in your aproach.
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Despite your complete lack of any solid argument here, your statement that *I* somehow CAN point to something from I8-I11 as being "build especially for CoV" is flatly absurd, on many levels. However, since you didn't bother to even try to make a case here, I won't bother to point out how foolish you sounded doing so.
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Ah but the arguement that no content exclusive to COV isn't what is being made. The claim is that there is no new content for COV. Very different things and for that matter the appropriateness of the RMZ content for COV is very much open to debate dispite your claim to the contrary. Just because it makes you feel all icky and heroic inside doesn't mean it makes most others feel that way.
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Nothing that you've said here has any relevance. "What the world would be like without Recluse" is completely without merit. First off, there is the basic principal of what information is and is not cannon - That being that no matter how "official" something is, if it's not IN the material itself, it's not cannon. That aside, conceptually, almost no char of mine that would be changed if Reculse weren't in power. Hell Hound would still be a demon, Epoch Eclipse would still be an alien, Feign Death would still be death incarnate. Etc. etc. The only ones that, conceptually, WOULD care in the least are the ones specifically built to be Recluse's toadies and grunts. The Arachnos soldiers themselves. And even then, for all but the most brain dead among them, the thought that THEY put Recluse in charge would mean that they would no longer feel the need to be his servents, but that Recluse is beholden to them, and not vice versa as the rest of the game is built around.
There is no lack of creativity here except with the devs and the game itself.
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You are jumping the shark completely here. The problem is one of expectations. Your looking for a free form world where you can make your character be exactly what you dictate. Unfortunately computer games do not support this. They have mechanical limitations that have to be worked with. in addition they have background stories to explain what is going on.
Essentially you and others are complaining that you don't like the COV metastory. There is nothing wrong with making that claim but... This isn't what your arguing. It appears to be the core of why your argueing but it isn't the arguement your making.
You want to be a specific type of villain. The game doesn't support this. In effect every effort you make to do things to your vision ignoring the games metastory will cause you more and more aggrivation as you can't make your character do what you want. Additionally the metastory will force you into actions your can't visualize your character doing.
This is your failure of vision and creativitiy.
Your not building your character to work within the world of the game. Then you complain that your forced to be a hero in the RMZ or rescue Recluse in Ouroboros. The game and the game world are not a free form RPG system. They oporate within a larger metastory. Work with that story and your character will shine, fight it and you will be unhappy.
That is the point I'm trying to make and your failing to grasp.
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Heroes were able to get the CoV 1 year badge. Villains are able to get the CoH badges. That does not change the fact the anniversary for my side of the game is now ignored. Tell me, if they changed the date for the anniversary badges to celebrate CoV, and stopped giving out CoH badges, do you think people would have accepted it while saying "Thank you sir, may I please have another?"
As for their being one game, sorry, no. They are two games. My copy of City of Villains is quite specifically CoV only. I had to get CoH later to get it's access. As I stated before, it is no different than such combination games as World of Xeen or Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Two games that, yes, do have points of commonality where they can be combined, but otherwise are two separate products, purchased separately, paid for separately, used separately.
On that note, no you cannot claim that "Old CoH and New CoH are two separate games by that logic." You cannot access "New" CoH content without having CoH. You can access CoV w/o having CoH and vice versa. The comparison is just foolish.
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You can argue about this until your blue in the face, if the devs no longer are treating COV as a sperate game then they won't be doing things like issuing anniversary badges for it.
Oh and your copy of COV now gives you both COV and COH you can go and create blue characters if you choose. Sorry one game.
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There is more than a small discrepancy, though. I want you to preform a simple test:
Go through CoH, and count up every single thing, gameplay wise, that you see that you CAN'T do in CoV.
Then go do the same with CoV.
CoV has Masterminds. That's about it. There's some unique power sets, but that's to be expected. It's a GOOD thing that there are different sets for different sides. Unique content is a drawing force, and there needs to be more of it - on BOTH sides.
This is where the big problem is. You, and others like you who treat the games as one game (and this includes the devs) are quite simply cheating both sides out of good content. The devs are terrified of making anything new for CoV becuase the legacy players, yourself included, will come to the forum in droves and demand that you get what villains had. We saw it with I8. I8 being focused on heroes was not a bad thing. I8 giving the heroes all of Villain's unique points was. Instead of designing something specifically for heroes, they tried to hammer CoV content's square peg into CoH's round hole. Safeguard missions are crap, a pale imitation, thrown in SOLELY because Villains got something new. Instead of new content, you got rehashed content. And because of it, because of people like you, neither side can have anything good and unique to them again.
I hope you're proud of yourself.
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You are cheating your self with your own expectations. I doubt very much there will be alot of exclusive content for either side. Certainly we may see some new zones in COV but there are not that many if any gaps in the leveling because of the better game construction that went into building it. This is why the hazard zones of COH are slowly being removed and modified to be useful game places. The devs have implied that one or more of the may be modified into another co operative type zone opening.
And yes I am proud of myself. I am flexable and creative and work within the parameters of the game I'm playing to build good solid characters.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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Well yes, I'd like an alternate zone path as well.
Although, I see parallels with the hazard zone argument as a lot of people have with CoV. Since hazard zones aren't used much they don't get any content so they aren't used much.
Would you use hazard zones more if they had as much to do in them as normal zones? As many contacts (well hidden, of course), a police scanner, and the like?
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Actually the hazard zones appear to be being phased out of COH.
No I don't like hazard zones, I actualy dislike the hazard zone aspect of the COV zones.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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You realize that, unless you can provide some direct evidence of those things actually being said by blue-side players, your "argument" here is nothing but pushing over a bunch of straw men? That's the kind of thing that makes people think "victim mentality."
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I have an odd idea over here: I keep imagining that half the people reading these posts are NOT children who have to be lead by the hand and have everything printed out in letters six inches high, and then shoved under their noses with a "HERE IT IS: LOOK!" underneath.
I keep imagining that half the people reading these posts do not have the memory-span of an ADHD child running on three hits of amphetamine and a shot of vodka; when will I learn?
In short, I expect people to be honest enough to admit to some stuff being such common knowledge/seen so often on these forums that one need not drag in a Supreme Court ruling everytime someone says.... pretty much anything. Bahahaha! I even make ME laugh, at the mere thought of such a silly expectation.
In short, I expect you to be smart enough - and honest enough - to not shout "straw man" about common forum knowledge, and to actually exert yourself in thinking up a cogent rebuttal other than "Nyah nyah, nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah."
I know that is foolish of me, but hope springs eternal and all that.
waitin' for more wit and wisdom re everyone playing CoV being a "VICTIM! ZOMG!!!":
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