I must say that I have had limited experience with vengeance. I have never taken it and can only recall a few instances were I had the pleasure of both team members dying and participants having prepared for such an event.
When I first read the manual (telekinesis gave a teammate flight!) I imagined Vengeance to be a power that required you to be dead to activate, like Rise of the Phoenix. You utter with your last breaths "Avenge me!" or something like that and your team gets a buff. This design would have made the power far less attractive and is perhaps the reason I've never shown enough interest to dispel my silly notion. Stacking Vengeance would have required multiple people to die and given extraordinary buffs to survivors to carry out their retribution. Such an implementation would probably no longer be possible or desirable.
I wonder if the code allows for a zero second (or very close to it) interrupt time that would prevent the queuing of the power without the undesirable interruption possible in dire straights. There have been many great thoughts expressed in this thread such as this one.
The suggestions that Warburg Nukes and Shivans be altered must be weighed against the fact that, while not difficult to obtain, they are the center focus for two zones, which in my experience are among the less popular and any alterations to them affect the zones as well.
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All you have done is bring yourself down to schoolyard mentality and insult those with a learning disability everywhere by comparing them to me.
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By the way, you're absolutely right, my apologies to all retards everywhere. They do not deserve to be compared to someone with your level of intelligence.
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Get rid of the "I Win" buttons of Shivans and Warburg bombs and then you don't have to design missions with their use in mind.
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And the notion that they designed the RSF with either or both in mind is an assumption. Perhaps an obvious one, but one we've never seen validated.
And the fact that people do complete it without them reinforce the notion that they might not have considered them a critical component.
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Then try to complete it with no rads, stoners, vengeance, shivvies, or nukes. Oh, and have at least 1 dom and 1 stalker on the team. None of this "Oh, but these guys did it" cards people throw, I wanna hear of YOU doing it, with builds.
Call me when you're done.
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What would doing this prove, or contrawise failing this prove?
In any event, my personal experience tells me this is 100% achieveable, consistently, as described. Dark can tank as well as Stone with a reasonable set of inspirations, a sufficient number of cold and kin corruptors can substitute for radiation debuffs, and since you can do it with seven, you can certainly do it with a stalker and a dominator.
But to be honest, this is a seriously high hurdle to overcome just to prove the thesis that the LRSF was not balanced around shivans and nukes. Anyone familiar with how the LRSF was designed should know better: it wasn't balanced around *anything*. It was originally designed with the AVs at +5, where it was clear it was actually designed to be virtually impossible, and then scaled down until people started beating it, by any means. It wasn't *designed* to any standard at all, much less shivans and nukes.
Saying the LRSF was designed around nukes and shivans is like saying the exploding buildings in steel canyon were designed around stone tanks. They just hit really really hard, that's all. The LRSF is no different. It wasn't designed to be beaten with nukes and shivans, it was just designed to be really really hard. This means certain builds are likely to do better, because they are more efficient at what the LRSF requires. but they were not specifically selected by the devs as such.
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If you've got some heavy -recharge on you, and the only thing you've got left is sands of mu, and that helps you survive, should that be nerfed? what about the nem staff, baseball bats, flamethrowers, or any other temp power that anyone has earned in the game?
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Go back and read the part where I said farmable. I'll add to that. The Vet Powers are balanced around permanent use. The shivans and bombs weren't BUT ARE BEING USED AS SUCH.
See the difference?
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So then would you suggest to make them all one-time use? What would that do to the people who are in a TF and are having a really difficult time with some AV? (take Lanaru, for instance) With shivys and nukes, that team that spent X number of hours (5-7 or more, depending on how well they did) would be able to actually finish the thing, instead of spending half the day and end up frustrated?
Or, what about the people who enjoy to solo and who come across an evil EB? with shivs and nukes, those people can overcome the EB and continue on their merry way?
so, my question is, are you calling for complete removal, or one-time use?
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Lanaruu was able to be defeated before shivans and nukes. We also have base teleporters and inspirations storage.
Soloing and EBs? Again, that's what Insps are for.
I am calling for the complete removal of shivans and warburg bombs. And Only shivans are warburg bombs. If not that, then nerf them to values equal to their now perma-use status.
Be well, people of CoH.
I am right about so many things, now is that all you have Psy? Cause your forum foo is weak.
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For the PvE folks reading this, no, Vengeance is not meant to stack in PvE, either and the change, when it happens, will apply in those encounters as well.
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Will this be true of NPCs (Nemesis Lieutenants), as well?
If so, I can accept this.
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Please make all relevant nerfs apply to NPC powers too. "NPC Cheating" where NPCs get to play by different rules than us is very annoying to players.
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qfe.
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Then try to complete it with no rads, stoners, vengeance, shivvies, or nukes. Oh, and have at least 1 dom and 1 stalker on the team. None of this "Oh, but these guys did it" cards people throw, I wanna hear of YOU doing it, with builds.
Call me when you're done.
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What a ludicruous attitude.
I know people who run it regularly. I don't happen to, because I either wasn't the right level or I've been waiting for I9 because I prefer the notion of a Hamidon raid to the LRSF. And part of that preference is exactly because the LRSF has promoted AT- and powerset-elitism.
But I know people, as in I'm in the same supergroup and/or chat rooms or voice coms, who run RSFs regularly. And they do it with no stoners. They do it with no rads. At times they do it with none of either. They do it with a core of around 5 people, with three "pity slots" that can be given to Stalkers or MM's with the "wrong" powersets.
I know these people. They aren't making it up when they tell me how the SF is going. And I've got no reason to make it up when I tell you. I'm sorry if you haven't found a team that can do this. They exist.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
ya know Bill, you or I and other poeple in this game maybe well of enough in our knoledge of game stratagies our characters abilities to not need a Shiv or WB nuke to complete every task we set out for in this game.
What you half to consider is not everyone that plays spends most everyday playing or may not be as good of a player as we are. Now who are you to say that someone that doesn't have the same skills in playing that you do can't be able to go run off to a PvP zone take 20 mins to an hour avoiding [censored] in a PvP zone to get a very nice limited use temp power.
As far as the RSF and STF are concerned SHivs and Nukes just make that last mission go so much more fast. There are alot of poeple out there that don't want to sit and try to pull or make rush after rush of all them AV's making that last mission take hours. And hell Shivs still don't mean your gonna get all of them in one shot.
for the record I only use shivs on the RSF at this point.
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Dude, come on. The rad nerf only significantly affects -regen. REGEN DEBUFFS ARE NOT NECCESSARY AT ALL TO DEFEAT THESE AVS. I'm sorry for shouting that, but I am sick of people propagating that myth. When you have a team of six to eight you simply don't need it, period. -DR is vastly more effective, and Rad, while a well-known provider of that, is far from the only one.
Let me repeat this again: you do not need -regen for the RSF/STF.
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6 to 8 what? And what, pray tell, was your opinion of the reasoning behind rad's nerf?
You say shivans and bombs are necessary. Nothing's ACTUALLY necessary (unless the design is poor) yet why the mass belief?
I'll tell you why. When you have 8 folks slamming on Babbage in Skyway getting nowhere and a single /rad shows up and Babbage goes down in 5 minutes, you quickly learn that rad is "needed" for all AV encounters. It's not a myth. Yes, AVs go down all the time without a rad around, yet rad was nerfed because when one Was around, AVs went down in vastly shorter periods of time.
Don't have a rad? Stock up on shivans. Don't have shivans? Use the bombs! Don't have any of that? No worries, we have a granite tank being buffed to the gills by these two kins.
If you don't need shivans and warburg bombs, then you don't need them and you should be backing the call to have them removed.
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Because he flat out said that gimiicks weren't the way.
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You have no proof that he thinks shivans and bombs are gimmicks.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Ad hominem stacking ftl.
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VTron21,
In a perfect game I wouldn't be against it. But that's not here. Here it breeds a mentality. A mentality that if you don't come with X, you're not welcome.
Not a granite brute? No thanks. Not a rad? You're out. Stalkers and Doms? Sorry, our PITY SPOTS (think about that VERY carefully) are full. What? You don't have shivans? Damnit, everybody head to BB.
Is EVERYONE out there like this? Nope. But when you listen to broadcast, that's what you hear.
So your new players that need those temp powers are the same ones being pushed OUT of content because of those temp powers.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Because he flat out said that gimiicks weren't the way.
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You have no proof that he thinks shivans and bombs are gimmicks.
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I'll supply that, then. Shivan's and Bombs can make it easier, but the new Hami encounter is designed to be beaten without them.
Comment on the thread in general:
Watch the language and the personal attack folks.
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Glad to hear it, Castle.
Now get to nerfing Shivans. 
This is all in prep for reworking the LRSF so that it becomes more in line with the difficulty of the STF, right?
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As long as they do both. The veng-stacking workaround is obviously an exploit, and shivans are way overpowered for how easy they are to get...but like heck if I am gonna stop using either until they fix the crazy RSF.
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This means certain builds are likely to do better, because they are more efficient at what the LRSF requires. but they were not specifically selected by the devs as such.
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Arcana, I agree with your assessment of how the LRSF was designed. Impossible until it was beaten with no regard for anything. I'll buy that.
And what's the end outcome? A screwball affair that lends itself to the use of shivans, nukes and ideal team makeups, screwing everyone that doesn't want to be involved in that kind of boring grind.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Because he flat out said that gimiicks weren't the way.
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You have no proof that he thinks shivans and bombs are gimmicks.
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I'll supply that, then. Shivan's and Bombs can make it easier, but the new Hami encounter is designed to be beaten without them.
Comment on the thread in general:
Watch the language and the personal attack folks.
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I stand corrected. Shivans and bombs are gimmicks.
And should be dealt with as such.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Comment on the thread in general:
Watch the language and the personal attack folks.
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I wonder who thats aimed at . *cough* Punk *cough*
Was this post a birthday present for CZ?
Happy Birthday!
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This means certain builds are likely to do better, because they are more efficient at what the LRSF requires. but they were not specifically selected by the devs as such.
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Arcana, I agree with your assessment of how the LRSF was designed. Impossible until it was beaten with no regard for anything. I'll buy that.
And what's the end outcome? A screwball affair that lends itself to the use of shivans, nukes and ideal team makeups, screwing everyone that doesn't want to be involved in that kind of boring grind.
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Well, shivans add free damage, and free aoe damage at that. Even if they were cut to half the strength, every end game encounter designed to be very difficult and which can be made easier with higher levels of damage will automatically lend itself to encouraging the use of shivans. That's an unavoidable situation for any replenishable temp power that adds damage-dealing capability to a team. It isn't a specific issue with shivans, its a more general issue of the mere existence of content designed to be sufficiently difficult that not every randomly assembled team is going to have the same degree of difficulty in accomplishing it, or even necessarily a chance to accomplish it, without additional capability. Shivans are just one example of that; Vengeance itself is another.
The only way to not encourage the use of Shivans would be to design an encounter that didn't require high levels of damage. That's not easy, and even if its possible it would almost certainly create the "requirement" for some other odd addition.
When the LRSF was +5, and even to a very high degree when it was +4, I would tend to agree that it lended itself to "magic" team compositions. At +3, however, I do not believe that's true. There are issues associated with different archetypes, but highly sub-optimal teams can complete it at +3 with proper preparation and tactics, particularly with regard to the use of inspirations.
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In other words, I shouldn't be asking the devs to nerf shivans, bombs and whatever else, I should be asking the playerbase to quit being so lazy.
You know the moment I knew things had gotten out of hand? When I was on my brute in RV, in control of a pillbox, and looked up to see that not only were there 4 heroes about to tear me a new one, but they felt it necessary to bring shivans and drop a bomb on me.
On a brute. A creature that can be brought low in seconds with some slows and -recharge. I laughed at the time, but I'm not laughing now. I find the whole situation sad.
I apologize for my nerfherding today.
Be well, people of CoH.
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If you don't need shivans and warburg bombs, then you don't need them and you should be backing the call to have them removed.
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Not necessarily.
Do I think they are needed for every hard encounter? No - but they do help when you solo.
Never seen one (shivan or nuke) used on a team larger than 4 unless true @#$ hit the fan and we have something like four 8man spawns on us
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In other words, I shouldn't be asking the devs to nerf shivans, bombs and whatever else, I should be asking the playerbase to quit being so lazy.
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No, what I'm saying is that whether you nerf shivans and nukes or not, the LRSF is going to stay exactly the same. So if your issue is that the LRSF is poorly designed, you need to suggest altering its design. If your issue is that the people who use nukes and shivans shouldn't be allowed to benefit from do so, then suggest modifying nukes and shivans. But if you think reducing nukes and shivans is a way to affect the design of the LRSF, I believe you are mistaken.
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You know the moment I knew things had gotten out of hand? When I was on my brute in RV, in control of a pillbox, and looked up to see that not only were there 4 heroes about to tear me a new one, but they felt it necessary to bring shivans and drop a bomb on me.
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They did that because they could. Nothing more and nothing less. This is the same mentality that leads to things like the Brute who, on seeing my Scrapper in Warburg popped not only Power Surge, but several lucks before attacking me.
I'm happy to say I Touch of Feared him and took his Scientist.
My point really, though, is that people will do anything to win. In this game, there are a lot of boosts we can get, some large and some not, that help us through rough spots. They aren't distributed evenly, which leads to feelings of unfairness and belief in imbalance, real and perceived. Part of the problem, of course, is that performance in this game has many dimensions of measurement, but not everyone values every axis equally.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I know these people. They aren't making it up when they tell me how the SF is going. And I've got no reason to make it up when I tell you. I'm sorry if you haven't found a team that can do this. They exist.
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How much time do they spend on one of their normal runs?
This is mostly a <qr> to the thread.
History of team composition requirements for the LRSF, by Protea, who thinks he knows about as much as anyone on the topic
I7 launch: Freedom Phalanx at level 54, 95% debuff resistance. Only two reasonable team compositions:
[*] Granite brute + kin + (N x rad); -or-[*] Team fully decked out with Shivans and Chemical Burns nukes, plus either some Biological Mutagens or a Kin, plus someone who can rez
I8 launch: Freedom Phalanx at level 53, 95% debuff resistance. Team requirements looser, as follows:
[*] 1x source of dmg buff[*] 5x sources of resistance debuff, -or- One source of unresistable -regen (/rad corr or /poison MM, possibly /TA MM)[*] 1x Shivan for every non-Brute, non-dmg-buff Corruptor, or other AT; -or- stacked vengeance[*] Someone who can rez
I9 launch: Freedom Phalanx at level 53, 85% debuff resistance, no more unresistable -regen. Team requirements UNKNOWN
I don't think anyone has done enough testing to know how easy (or not) the LRSF is now that debuffs are 3x as effective as they used to be against the FP, but we no longer have unresistable -regen. So before we make any more claims about what should or shouldn't happen to Shivans and Warburg weapons as they relate to the LRSF, we should probably do some testing.
Peace.
- Protea
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
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Vengeance stacking breaks the game. It sends numbers through the roof. It causes the balance of the game to go completely out of whack. Stacking Vengeance is HORRIBLE for organized PvP as it creates matches that are neither fun to watch or participate in.
One team spends months and months practicing, only to see themselves get beat 80-9 by a team equally talented, just they happened to stack 4 Vengeances. Quite honestly, this is the worst exploit in the game right now and I pray the developers get on this right away.
Right now, wins in the Arena = who got stacked Vengeance off...has very little to do with actually what the Arena was designed to measure.
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Really how come NDX, can come from behind to roll another team after they use stacked Vengeance on them at the beginning. How come Ive seen I believe Freaks vs HVND third match gather for a vengance, HVND get off a nuke and turn the tide in their favor taking match three. Ive seen matches where both teams play the Vengance game and one team still wins big, just cause JAL cant overcome it, dont put other groups on their level. Ive also seen aim plus cage hit through multiple Vengeances, Ive seen people get spiked hard with multiple Vengeance going. Also 4 stacked Vengeance off isnt the easiest thing to do when in the high-end pvp game, most people are in different directions, so your going overboard there two maybe three tops and that might only hit one or two people. JAL was losing big before Vengeance and they will probably be losing big after it gets changed, sry to be brutally honest sometimes you need to crack a few eggs to make an omelette though and saying Vengeance is the root of all PvP woes is just funny.
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Hey dick head,
We beat Lion's Den before this Vengeance stacking was known about. So, go stick it. Number two, your logic is utterly flawed, keep working on that high school diploma or G.E.D. because you're not very intelligent.
Stacking Vengeance is easy...if you don't think so, then you're not very good at PvP - which to be honest, you AREN'T very good at PvP, so that explains it. You want the exploit because that is how you are successful...now stop embarassing yourself because your posts are pretty pathetic and indicative of someone who is slow or has a learning disability.
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You havent answered any of my questions? All you have done is bring yourself down to schoolyard mentality and insult those with a learning disability everywhere by comparing them to me. You barely beat LD when they had scrappers and no kins, face it your no more than someone who holds Rift's coat tails over in WoW. Half your sg left before a big match and your PvP ladder was a complete failure. I come at you with facts you come at me with anger and bias. So Plz as Ed Wreck would say CRY.SOME.MORE! Oh and its Mr. Dick Head to you
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God you're a moron. The only PvP you should be doing is with the English language...because it is pwning you.
Go here.