Castle's mostly saying that stacking vengeance is an exploit.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm calling for your brakes to quit on a curvy road
[/ QUOTE ]
I generaly don't feed the trolls but here you go
Want to get Away!
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________
Now thats out of my system, I have to admit Shivians are easy to get. Warburg Nukes are also .. well not as easy but still not very hard to get. Should somthing be done about them, well we all have access to them, so as far as i'm concerned its a level playing field. As for PvP zones, honestly all bets are off, if you want a fair fight go to the arena. I still have my shivians from when I6 went Live..lol.
Stacking Vengence on the otherhand is getting around code. Someday it will be fixed, for the time it can be used however consider it being used on barrowed time. Just some thoughts
How about no stacking of Shivians, or Nukes, or Veng. Only one of each max active per team? (though it may not currently be possible per Castle's comment)
This keeps the soloist safe and makes the team thing a little more difficult.
Just my .02 inf for a middle of the road solution.
Just Lucky that way...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For the PvE folks reading this, no, Vengeance is not meant to stack in PvE, either and the change, when it happens, will apply in those encounters as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
A note on this point. In PVE, heroes don't NEED to stack vengeance, not with power boost/power build up. The +dam is probably the least interesting aspect of the power, especially if there's a kin on the team. The +def and +tohit, though, are absolutely ridiculous -- CoD lists PBU at 149% buff. That's like being able to double-stack veng all on your own. (And I say this as someone who constantly veng + pbus, and loves doing it.)
Villains don't get power boost or power build up, so single-stacked veng is just nice.
If stacked veng is 'too good', maybe PB'd veng is too?
[/ QUOTE ]
Villains DO get power boost, /ice or /energy doms get it, and use it on the RSF. There are also a lot more AV/heroes with tier 9s in CoV, so it can be very handy. Heroes will appreciate this far more after tangling with Mako on the STF. There will be some groups who can't succeed on the STF without PB vengeance or stacking it.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you've got some heavy -recharge on you, and the only thing you've got left is sands of mu, and that helps you survive, should that be nerfed? what about the nem staff, baseball bats, flamethrowers, or any other temp power that anyone has earned in the game?
[/ QUOTE ]
Go back and read the part where I said farmable. I'll add to that. The Vet Powers are balanced around permanent use. The shivans and bombs weren't BUT ARE BEING USED AS SUCH.
See the difference?
[/ QUOTE ]
So then would you suggest to make them all one-time use? What would that do to the people who are in a TF and are having a really difficult time with some AV? (take Lanaru, for instance) With shivys and nukes, that team that spent X number of hours (5-7 or more, depending on how well they did) would be able to actually finish the thing, instead of spending half the day and end up frustrated?
Or, what about the people who enjoy to solo and who come across an evil EB? with shivs and nukes, those people can overcome the EB and continue on their merry way?
so, my question is, are you calling for complete removal, or one-time use?
[/ QUOTE ]
Lanaruu was able to be defeated before shivans and nukes. We also have base teleporters and inspirations storage.
Soloing and EBs? Again, that's what Insps are for.
I am calling for the complete removal of shivans and warburg bombs. And Only shivans are warburg bombs. If not that, then nerf them to values equal to their now perma-use status.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm calling for your brakes to quit on a curvy road
[/ QUOTE ]
Seek some profosonial help guy, you need it if you'd wish accually phisical harm on a person over something that happens in a videogame.... I'm SURE you'll come back and say you were joking, well, it was in really poor taste IMO. Sheesh.
And I happen to agree with Bill for most part on this issue. I've ALWAYS thought the shavrans were a tad on the powerful side... And needed to be "rebalanced". Not nessearily removed, but rebalanced. Or at least unrenewable.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
[ QUOTE ]
I8 launch: Freedom Phalanx at level 53, 95% debuff resistance. Team requirements looser, as follows:
[/ QUOTE ]
You forgot the dominator way:
- 1x mind dominator
- 2x kinetic corrs
- pretty much anything else.
Mind dominator dual-boosted can keep the AVs slept while the other 7 people take on the AVs one by one. I've been on teams doing this, it works, no nukes, no shivans and no radiation required. One time we ran it with a level 46 brute tanking, sk'd to 49.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I8 launch: Freedom Phalanx at level 53, 95% debuff resistance. Team requirements looser, as follows:
[/ QUOTE ]
You forgot the dominator way:
- 1x mind dominator
- 2x kinetic corrs
- pretty much anything else.
Mind dominator dual-boosted can keep the AVs slept while the other 7 people take on the AVs one by one. I've been on teams doing this, it works, no nukes, no shivans and no radiation required. One time we ran it with a level 46 brute tanking, sk'd to 49.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're right, sorry about that. That's still a pretty specific team build, though. (I haven't personally seen this done but I know it's possible.) The critical trick IMHO is not so much the perma-sleeping of the FP as a whole, though that certainly makes things easier, but the ability to perma-hold Statesman through the PToD so that he can't use his ridiculous game-breaking version of Unstoppable. That Unstoppable is the real reason unresistable -regen or gigantic stacked -res is such a key factor.
My point is we don't know what's required to punch through Unstoppable now that the rules have changed. It might be easier, it might be the same, it might even be harder (now that -regen isn't resistable).
- Protea
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
[ QUOTE ]
For the PvE folks reading this, no, Vengeance is not meant to stack in PvE, either and the change, when it happens, will apply in those encounters as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Will it apply to Nemesis at that point as well? Or will they still be able to stack it on themselves?
[ QUOTE ]
Will it apply to Nemesis at that point as well? Or will they still be able to stack it on themselves?
[/ QUOTE ]
I've read this question like 30 times in this thread and others. Does it really matter?(dont answer that) You could try asking in a PvE forum or something, but I can almost guarantee the developers have no idea at this point.
considering castle specificially mentioned a pve aspect here, that's why people are coming here to ask the question, i would guess.
@Death Conqueror
-Goal for 2011: Survive, stay alive, and continue to thrive.
the ad hominem is so cute in this thread
[ QUOTE ]
considering castle specificially mentioned a pve aspect here, that's why people are coming here to ask the question, i would guess.
[/ QUOTE ]
True, but he mentioned PvE stating an answer to a question PvEers would ask, so they wouldn't ask it.
My search skills are telling me that last time they tried to change vengeance to not stack that they didn't change nemisis stacking it. So I would guess if they can easily fix it they will if not it will remain unchanged like many things in many games.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For the PvE folks reading this, no, Vengeance is not meant to stack in PvE, either and the change, when it happens, will apply in those encounters as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Will this be true of NPCs (Nemesis Lieutenants), as well?
If so, I can accept this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please make all relevant nerfs apply to NPC powers too. "NPC Cheating" where NPCs get to play by different rules than us is very annoying to players.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would prefer that NPC's operate by the same rules that players do, but generally speaking "cheating" by NPC's is a neccesary part of balancing PvE encounters specifically because the NPC's don't have a human being directing them and will never be as challenging because of that. Now, I'll agree that this particular instance can be annoying, but hardly game breaking.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
[ QUOTE ]
So.... ahhh..... What's Vengeance? Some new inherent? 
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a power anyone can have but is unfair to use because some people don't take it... if I understand the so-called logic behind it. And stacking it, though it can be done by anyone, unbalances PvP because some people choose not to.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So.... ahhh..... What's Vengeance? Some new inherent?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a power anyone can have but is unfair to use because some people don't take it... if I understand the so-called logic behind it. And stacking it, though it can be done by anyone, unbalances PvP because it makes use of a broken mechanic and isn't supposed to.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fixed for you, sir.
Great....so when you fix this, are you going to take into consideration that it is an almost required power for RSFs? Keep in mind, villains have 8 level 53 heroes to fight in the last mission, and they aren't single pullable. Your beloved heroes don't have to worry about anything, you made their statesman TF nice and easy, with every AV easily single pullable (you said you learned from your mistakes made in creating the RSF....but that doesn't do us villain players a whole lot of good, now does it?)
You want to nerf it in PvP...fine, but don't change it for PvE.
It's not needed for the LRSF. It's not needed anywhere. It's broken. The only need is the need to have it fixed.
I got a PM last night from the point man for a group that is going to make an LRSF attempt with no shivans, no nukes, no stacked vengeance, no granite brutes and no rads.
I wish them the best of luck and hope that they succeed. I did state in reply that if it takes longer than four hours, I'll still consider the LRSF a broken design. Much in the same way I consider the new Hamidon broken.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then try to complete it with no rads, stoners, vengeance, shivvies, or nukes. Oh, and have at least 1 dom and 1 stalker on the team. None of this "Oh, but these guys did it" cards people throw, I wanna hear of YOU doing it, with builds.
Call me when you're done.
[/ QUOTE ]
What a ludicruous attitude.
I know people who run it regularly. I don't happen to, because I either wasn't the right level or I've been waiting for I9 because I prefer the notion of a Hamidon raid to the LRSF. And part of that preference is exactly because the LRSF has promoted AT- and powerset-elitism.
But I know people, as in I'm in the same supergroup and/or chat rooms or voice coms, who run RSFs regularly. And they do it with no stoners. They do it with no rads. At times they do it with none of either. They do it with a core of around 5 people, with three "pity slots" that can be given to Stalkers or MM's with the "wrong" powersets.
I know these people. They aren't making it up when they tell me how the SF is going. And I've got no reason to make it up when I tell you. I'm sorry if you haven't found a team that can do this. They exist.
[/ QUOTE ]
I belong to one of these groups on Justice that runs RSF 2 times a night every night (and sometimes 3). We take all ATs, all builds. Cold cold corrupters who don't have their shields? NP, there are 2 of them who do it with us regularly. We have done it with 3 MMs before, with 3 stalkers before, even with 3 doms. The issue really isn't the ATs and builds who do the RSF (I do it regularly on my SS/elec brute, EM/nin stalker, and Bots/bubbles MM), but rather the fact that Vengance really is a Must. If you only have 2 vengance you have a rough RSF ahead of you, and better have some really good players with really good builds and shivs for the final mission. If you have more vengance then you have more flexability in the ATs and builds that you can take with you.
If/when they nerf Vengance then I'm afraid people will find that less "pity spots" will be given out for RSF groups.
[ QUOTE ]
This is a VERY VERY important issue. Not Vengeance per se, but in the levels of difficulty that the Devs are allowed to design into the game.
Over and over, players want content that 'any PuG can have a reasonable chance to defeat'.
They also want 'truly challenging content that is worth the bragging rights and not a boring grind'.
One way of doing this is to have content that is truly challenging, but also have some 'kryptonite' for it in the game: in this case, Nukes and Shivans. A PuG can do this with Nukes and Shivans, or by stacking Vengeance...can you do it without?
But then these tactics developed for extreme situations become the easy fix for every bump of difficulty in the game. See a Brute? Nukes and Shivans! Why not, it isn't like you don't go farm for Nukes and Shivans first thing after logging on anyway...
This cripples our future content. If it's tough to do with Nukes and Shivans, it's impossible without. If it's tough without, it's easy with.
This is further complicated by the fact that the Nukes and Shivans are in PvP zones. If more people PvP'd, the Nukes and Shivans would be as tough to get as they are 'supposed' to be.
You could take the Nukes and Shivans out....but not until after new replacement content is designed.
It's an interesting puzzle. How tough should tough be?
[/ QUOTE ]
I have a suggestion that would allow the same encounter to be used as either a "Pug" encounter or a "bragging rights" encounter.
Take the RSF for instance.....do it on the lowest difficulty (as most do) and you get your random Hami. Do it on the highest difficulty and you get to PICK your hami (or your invention recipe). Now....any PuG can pick up shivans, nukes, and have at a low difficulty RSF, or a group of experienced players can crank the difficulty of the strike force and do the same thing for their choice of hami (I know I'd never do a low level again if I could pick....no more cents!!!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This cripples our future content. If it's tough to do with Nukes and Shivans, it's impossible without. If it's tough without, it's easy with.
[/ QUOTE ]
Adding to this puzzle is somthing I think is important. And something I think a lot of people overlook.
Shivans aren't on our tray by default. Clearly there's an open question about whether they're hard enough to get, or related factors like how many per run, or how strong per Shivan. But we never have to go get them. It's a choice.
I could trivialize the game regularly with Shivans. I don't. I get them for really hard fights that I either can't win without them or that take so long I don't want to do it without the help.
In other words, I use them for what they're presumably meant for. I don't skate through the rest of the game with them, because there's no point. That's not fun for me.
Do I need to be protected from myself? Made so I can't bore myself by intentionally making the game too easy in that way? I'd rather have the option, honestly, to clear those damn hard fights, or clear them faster.
Should so many of our missions have AVs in them even when we're solo? Should even some EBs be as tough as they are? How do you account for differences in powersets? In ATs? In the powers of the EBs themselves and how they counter some powersets? Some EBs are a joke to one character and a bane to another. A fun fight often lurks somewhere in between.
Are Shivans, Nukes, or what have you "balanced"? I'm not going to argue that they are. But do I think they serve a purpose that they serve well, and removing them or severely neutering them would be a bad move.
Should we have a tool to push us over those challenge humps? I think we should. How do we make it so you can only have that tool when you really need it? I have no idea. And so I am reluctant to advocate removing it.
I have no complaint about the change to Vengeance, except for one that's old news. It's the only buff in the game that's (supposed to be) non stackable. I hope the change to make this one power non-stackable isn't something that will become a balance trend. I tend to doubt it will, but I am still wary.
[/ QUOTE ]
As far as shivans and nukes for the RSF are concerned.....I do 2 RSFs a night, I farm bio and chem for two different toons every single night, and always make sure I have at least 3 shivans on each. If I am willing to take the time out of my day to enter open PvP zones and farm techs and shards while any number of Heroes are looking to prevent me (most villains understand RSF prep and won't interfere) from doing so, then I have every right to use these temp powers in my RSFs. Nerfing the powers would be an injustice to the time I spend on a daily basis prepping for my RSFs.
Whew!
Thanks for taking care of this hideous abuse!
Naturally you'll be eliminating the same abhorrent situation for the Nemesis on PvE right?????
Because otherwise, your motives would be highly questionable. I mean if stacked vengeance is wrong, it's wrong both for players and the AI of Nemesis. Feel free to announce that stacked veng has been wiped out for them and you'll be a hero for sure.
Oh yes, one other thought.
For Castle to comment on this being a noticeable problem in PvP tells me it happens more than the random occasion as seen in PvE teams where multiple players have and fire vengeance at about the same time.
Sounds like third party software to me! Betcha somebody's using some nice little program to take control of the team's attacks, just like targeting binds, and firing off vengeance for the team. Otherwise even using TS or Vent wouldn't cause it due to the lag differential and connection speeds.
Wouldn't your time be better spent looking for that than trying to solve what's normally a rarity? Last time I checked you still can't click to get on trams everytime the doors are open. Why not clear up that little ditty, since it's much more annoying?
No, the easy stacking in PvE comes from queueing vengeance on a dead body that's out of range, then using Recall Friend to bring them into range; all the queued vengeances will fire off simultaneously.
In PvP, it happens through a recently discovered exploit at the beginning of a match, as well as during matches through practiced coordination, typically a countdown over vent.
[ QUOTE ]
Then try to complete it with no rads, stoners, vengeance, shivvies, or nukes. Oh, and have at least 1 dom and 1 stalker on the team. None of this "Oh, but these guys did it" cards people throw, I wanna hear of YOU doing it, with builds.
Call me when you're done.
[/ QUOTE ]
As I already posted, done and done. I have been there. My team has done it. Mind dominator + 2 kins. No rads, no stones, no shivans, no nukes. The brute was an electric brute if I recall correctly. Once you have the AVs slept and you can single-pull them, the mission becomes much much easier.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm calling for your brakes to quit on a curvy road
[/ QUOTE ]
Classy calling for the actual death of another human over a temp power in a GAME.
Your mother must be so proud.
Be well, people of CoH.