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Now get to nerfing Shivans. 
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if you don't like them, you don't have to use them; but you leave my shivys alone. 
@Death Conqueror
-Goal for 2011: Survive, stay alive, and continue to thrive.
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As pretty much everyone knows, despite my best efforts to prevent this power from stacking from multiple users, it can still be stacked.
At some point in the future, I *will* get code support to eliminate the problem. In the meantime, if people are abusing this loophole (it's an exploit but not an "Exploit" -- GM's and petitions won't do anything about it at this time) I suggest that you blacklist their team and simply do not engage them in PvP.
For the PvE folks reading this, no, Vengeance is not meant to stack in PvE, either and the change, when it happens, will apply in those encounters as well.
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Including when fighting against Nemisis LTs?
Yeah, I went there. 
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
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Wait, what?!? There are things to kill in this game besides Family mobsters and other players? 
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This is a game?
Proud member of the LEGION, and Sisterhood
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Out of the enemy groups Hero side, Nem's are high on my list o hate.
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Wait, what?!? There are things to kill in this game besides Family mobsters and other players?
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Nope. Its all a pack of lies.
Also: Yay for maybe eventually getting Vengeance fixed.
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This is all in prep for reworking the LRSF so that it becomes more in line with the difficulty of the STF, right?
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Seeing as how it's pretty common to defeat the LRSF without either Shivans or stacked Vengeance, I'm not sure I see the relevance.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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When you do put the new tech in to prevent vengence from stacking can you also redesign the LRSF on the villian side so any half way decent combination of villian archtypes can do it instead of relying on shivans + nukes + vengence stacking.
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/Signed.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
Nemesis LTs aren't using the power we use. It's unlikely they'll be prevented from stacking it, as this is, honestly, one of the few things about Nemesis that make them scary at all. My only problem with it is that it allows them to ignore defense sets, which is a problem with the toHit/Defefnse interaction, not with Nemesis.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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if someone dies out or range of the team, when that dead person is tp'ed into your group, if multiple people have vengence qued up in their power try, when the dead man arrives, the multiple vengences will all go at the same time, and it will stack. (which is a no-no, apparently)
Apparently, people have been doing it in pvp, and i know it gets done in pve (LRSF). As already mentioned, if the people (pve or pvp) can't stack it, then hows about nem can't stack theirs, either? It's always fun to find a mob of 5 LTs.
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If the way it's being exploited is by queuing it up while the target is out of range, wouldn't making the activation interuptable fix the problem? I don't think interuptable powers can be queued up, iirc.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
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if someone dies out or range of the team, when that dead person is tp'ed into your group, if multiple people have vengence qued up in their power try, when the dead man arrives, the multiple vengences will all go at the same time, and it will stack. (which is a no-no, apparently)
Apparently, people have been doing it in pvp, and i know it gets done in pve (LRSF). As already mentioned, if the people (pve or pvp) can't stack it, then hows about nem can't stack theirs, either? It's always fun to find a mob of 5 LTs.
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If the way it's being exploited is by queuing it up while the target is out of range, wouldn't making the activation interuptable fix the problem? I don't think interuptable powers can be queued up, iirc.
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That might work PVE and would go a long way to fixing the pre-match stack, but it wouldn't cure pvp teams doing a countdown on vent and four stacking veng.
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Now get to nerfing Shivans.
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if you don't like them, you don't have to use them; but you leave my shivys alone.
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"If you don't like using perma-elude and perma-unstoppable, you don't have to use them; but you leave my god-mode powers alone."
Broken garbage is broken garbage. Shivans are broken garbage. Crutches being used over and over by the masses attempting to accomplish broken design.
Fix the design, fix the broken powers. Fix the game.
Be well, people of CoH.
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This is all in prep for reworking the LRSF so that it becomes more in line with the difficulty of the STF, right?
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Seeing as how it's pretty common to defeat the LRSF without either Shivans or stacked Vengeance, I'm not sure I see the relevance.
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Common occurence for who, UG? Large SGs using multiple kins, rads and stoners?
Nothing has changed with the LRSF. You either have the stock group makeup, or the demands are made that everyone gets shivans and nukes.
I saw a call over PinnBadges the other night for getting shivans because some foursome wasn't managing a basic TF.
If the populace has sunk so low that Shivans are being used in the most mundane of situations, then Shivans need to go.
At the very least block their use outside of PvP zones.
Be well, people of CoH.
Nice
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Glad to hear it, Castle.
Now get to nerfing Shivans.
This is all in prep for reworking the LRSF so that it becomes more in line with the difficulty of the STF, right?
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I hope Shivans aren't gutted. They're the only thing that have allowed several of my squishier characters to solo EBs. I'd like to see the LRSF reworked as much as the next guy, but given that some of my favorite characters are on Guardian which is pretty much a ghost town at the unusual hours I sometimes play, I want to continue to be able to rely on my trusty Shivs.
Frankly, if the LRSF was changed I think we'd see a reduction in the number of Shivans/Nukes there simply because so many teams wouldn't feel they were a prerequisite that's necessary to beat the SF. Folks just want to play the game, and I think most folks would gladly skip the prep time if they could. I guess what I'm saying is I'd love to see them change the LRSF and datamine to see if Shivans were a continuing issue before changing them.
The pessimist in me expects that we'll see the worst possible combo: a Shivan nerf with no change to the LRSF. 
I hope I'm wrong.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
interruptibles can't be qued up, as i remember it (going off of aid self/other), so i guess that's a reasonable way out. Though, the only problem is that "normally" (at least in pve situations), you're waist-deep in baddies when vengence is needed in any way, shape, or form, and having the power interruptible would
A) pose some problems in the middle of a fight, and
B) wouldn't it require the animation time to be extended in some way? I know that aid other and self have a couple of seconds delay (thinking 4), and with decrease interrupt time enh you can bring that down to using it in a fight. Doing so for vengence, though, would require the same thing, meaning changing the code to allow vengence to take decrease interrupt enh, i think. Is that possible? I know it's been done the reverse. (remember when hasten used to give i think a def bonus?)
@Death Conqueror
-Goal for 2011: Survive, stay alive, and continue to thrive.
I'd hate to see Vengeance turned into an interruptible power, because when you most need it is in the midst of a huge fight that's going bad. It would have the unintended side effect of really gimping a power that's meant to turn the tide of a desperate situation.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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This is all in prep for reworking the LRSF so that it becomes more in line with the difficulty of the STF, right?
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Seeing as how it's pretty common to defeat the LRSF without either Shivans or stacked Vengeance, I'm not sure I see the relevance.
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sorry not everyone can find 5 corruptors, 2 masterminds, and a stone brute to do the LRSF with
also stalkers and dominators want to be useful on it too.
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Common occurence for who, UG? Large SGs using multiple kins, rads and stoners?
Nothing has changed with the LRSF. You either have the stock group makeup, or the demands are made that everyone gets shivans and nukes.
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I'm not sure what you're asking for. I don't like the end mission of either the LRSF or the RSF because they both tend to exclude ATs and some powersets (less so now that the AV resistances are being curtailed a bit). I want them to make the end missions more useful for a broader spectrum of ATs, and to some extent I think they did this on the STF.
But that doesn't equate to making the end mission easier. It equates to making it less exclusive through more inventive mission design. And a more inventive mission could still be crazy hard in a way that might still be made easier by having a huge bag of HP and damage to throw into the fray.
Fixing the LRSF does not neccessarily equal making it so a Shivan isn't desirable.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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sorry not everyone can find 5 corruptors, 2 masterminds, and a stone brute to do the LRSF with
also stalkers and dominators want to be useful on it too.
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See my post above. I'm all for making it so everyone can do something useful.
But sorry, I'm not at all for making it easier. I think it will always be convenient to do it with Stone Brutes and massed Corruptors, because that's the toughest Brute and Corruptors have the powersets most crippling to the most foes.
What they need to to is make it so there are alternatives to "brute forcing" your way through it. Not make it so brute force is invalid. What I see people asking for here is "gimp the end mission then nerf Shivans because we won't need them any more."
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Fixing the LRSF does not neccessarily equal making it so a Shivan isn't desirable.
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And getting rid of idiotic, overpowered temp powers makes it easier to DESIGN missions so that PUGs with strange team makeups can still accomplish them.
Get rid of the "I Win" buttons of Shivans and Warburg bombs and then you don't have to design missions with their use in mind.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Get rid of the "I Win" buttons of Shivans and Warburg bombs and then you don't have to design missions with their use in mind.
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And the notion that they designed the RSF with either or both in mind is an assumption. Perhaps an obvious one, but one we've never seen validated.
And the fact that people do complete it without them reinforce the notion that they might not have considered them a critical component.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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For the PvE folks reading this, no, Vengeance is not meant to stack in PvE, either and the change, when it happens, will apply in those encounters as well.
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And Nemesis is cursing the day this change goes into effect. Do you think he'll come on the boards and yell at the devs?
From the way you're going, BillZ, it almost sounds as though you're railing against any temp power in the game? You're examples, the shivys and the nukes. They help in tough spots for that team (regardless of makeup). You want them nerfed b/c they're so helping? It sounds like you want all the temps nerfed, b/c they can help a team or person survive.
The 3 stealths from patrols in the pvp zones can help people survive, pve or pvp. should those be nerfed?
If you've got some heavy -recharge on you, and the only thing you've got left is sands of mu, and that helps you survive, should that be nerfed? what about the nem staff, baseball bats, flamethrowers, or any other temp power that anyone has earned in the game? Hasn't every single one of those, in some way or another, somewhere in the game, helped someone do the job that they've been given to do?
@Death Conqueror
-Goal for 2011: Survive, stay alive, and continue to thrive.
QR
Would it be possible to flag Vengeance as Interruptable (meaning it can't be set on auto) and set the Interrupt time to zero?That wouldn't solve the issue of a well coordinated team double (or more) stacking it in PvP, but it might be worth looking at.
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Get rid of the "I Win" buttons of Shivans and Warburg bombs and then you don't have to design missions with their use in mind.
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And the notion that they designed the RSF with either or both in mind is an assumption. Perhaps an obvious one, but one we've never seen validated.
And the fact that people do complete it without them reinforce the notion that they might not have considered them a critical component.
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Then try to complete it with no rads, stoners, vengeance, shivvies, or nukes. Oh, and have at least 1 dom and 1 stalker on the team. None of this "Oh, but these guys did it" cards people throw, I wanna hear of YOU doing it, with builds.
Call me when you're done.
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For the PvE folks reading this, no, Vengeance is not meant to stack in PvE, either and the change, when it happens, will apply in those encounters as well.
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It's about time a PvE group got nerfed--take that Nemesis!
Now if you could fix the illusionists attacking while phase shifted...
Thanks Castle!
Proud member of the LEGION, and Sisterhood